A123 Batteries

[TurnNBurn]

It may be my insanely large headache at work, but I'm considering getting some A123 batteries for my electric motorcycle build. Do you guys think they will give me the range and speeds I want? I'm looking to get the bike up to 75 MPH, but as far as speed/distance on average I'd be going no faster than 45 and I'd like a range of at least 30 miles.

Spec:
Nominal Voltage: 3.3v
Nominal Capacity: 2.3A
Standard Charge: 3.6A
Max Charge: 10C
Max Allowable Charge Voltage: 4.2v
Max Discharge: 30C (Continuous)
Burst Discharge: 60C
Weight: 70g
Dimensions: 66.5mm x 26mm

The reason I want to go with the A123 or another single cell battery is that I can build my own battery pack in a custom shape to fit my bike. If the A123 will not work, does anyone have any comparable cells for the same price?

 

[davec]

good question
these cells are really good and will last you long time
but they are too much work( who has that much time on their hands)- and the maintenance is a pain
if you have the $$ consider the legitimate a123 20ah prismatics -.... or possibly a cheap calb 40ah - i knew someone off this thread that used the calbs and had luck with those - yes they are not as good as a123 - heavy more sag etc- but they are ok for 3c at least

 

[999zip999]

I have a 24s pack and run it at 30 amps. I have run it at 60amps no problem. The next battery I get will be these 7-8ah screw tops.

 

[TurnNBurn]

Good to know. I was looking at individual cells because I do have lots of time to work on it and it would be worth the effort. I would be able to use the individual cells to form a battery around the shape of the bike. I was going to make blocks so they're easily replaceable if a cell or group of cells go bad.

I'm looking into a123 20ah prismatics and they seem pretty hard to get a hold of. I saw a group buy on another site at $26 per cell. But I'm guessing since that was from 2012 that group buy is over with.

 

[TurnNBurn]

I have a 24s pack and run it at 30 amps. I have run it at 60amps no problem. The next battery I get will be these 7-8ah screw tops.

I believe to reach 75 MPH it would draw I think it was 180 Amps. Do you think a if I had a few sets of these running at a maximum of 120 volts that they could sustain the amperage draw? That is, 160 Amps (if I remember correctly)

 

[999zip999]

Are you asking for 34s battery of A123 20ah or a 34s 3p of 32157 cells. Is this what you are talking about ? Look for Docbass's builds for his Zero.

 

[biohazardman]

I have near 10K miles on a couple of 20s 2p 26650 packs I put together from the Dewalt tool packs. I run them with a 30-40 amp draw in this configuration and they seldom get more than warm to the touch. I seldom balance but just bulk charge them with few problems thus far so low maintenance they are. So am a fan of a123 at least the US made cells. Looks like you would need to go 6P to stay in spec so over 200 cells if you stay with the 26650 cells first described. Bigger would be better if you can find them. But a 216 cell pack is doable if you are careful and it should last a long time with minimal care as well.

 

[EVPowers]

Good to know. I was looking at individual cells because I do have lots of time to work on it and it would be worth the effort. I would be able to use the individual cells to form a battery around the shape of the bike. I was going to make blocks so they're easily replaceable if a cell or group of cells go bad.

I'm looking into a123 20ah prismatics and they seem pretty hard to get a hold of. I saw a group buy on another site at $26 per cell. But I'm guessing since that was from 2012 that group buy is over with.

I have 24 20ah prismatics available for sale.

They are full tabs.

These are not the garbage cells like you see for sale now that have cut up/welded tabs.

It'll be about $800 (shipping, etc)

These are ones from a project that never came to fruition.

After the initial rush of sales, the availability of these cells has slowed to a trickle. Plus the ones that they are trying to sell now are scary sometimes. All cut up. extremely short tabs, etc.

I can send some pics. drop me a pm or email me at Eric@EVpowers.com

 

[dogman dan]

You are on the right track with A123 cells. But others might work ok too, since you will need a very large pack to get that kind of distance at speed.

Start with how many amps you will draw, then make sure your pack will handle that kind of draw, at no more than half the specified C rate.

If you will run 100 amps controller, but will need 100 ah to go the distance, then even lame 2c cells would work for example. I suspect 40-60 ah size may be enough though. So maybe thundersky or similar prismatic cells won't do. Headways might though.

Hard to beat the pouch a123's. If they aren't the dumpster ones that is.

 

[EVPowers]

And in case you haven't seen it, here is a link that highlights a warning to anyone who is thinking about buying A123 20ah pouch cells.
This is the latest from a once-trusted overseas seller. Bad stuff out there so be careful
http://victpowerbadbattery.blogspot.se/

The ones I have for sale are from a year ago, have not been assembled in a pack, and are of good quality.
I'm in Madison, Wisconsin.

 

[999zip999]

Yes a 40ah pack or more depends how you ride.

 

[davec]

it was always bad stuff
even out of the expensive selected osn supply- my cells had scratches pinholes/ small wrinkles/puffs/ - they are cells taken out of dumpsters(all of them) for a reason and re-sold to fools
the only ones i would trust are the ones coming out of modules/ (if you can find them) or pay more and buy legitimate if you can find a source
but if you have the time the a123 2.3ah out of the tool packs can't be beat - i just prefer the larger format - as i dont have time or patience to manage a pack built out of hundred of tiny cells and if any of them goes bad good luck

also beware of the reject cells that are meant to be recycled. There is different from the questionable cells sold at a low price with short tabs, puffed or wrinkled skin. They are cheap to buy but very expensive to own. Reject cells have one or more of the following characteristics: Short tabs, regardless of how they are called. Low continuous discharge rate, anything below 10C is low. Low burst discharge rate, anything below 20C is low. The cell's skin is wrinkled or puffed or has scratches/ pinholes in it.

http://info.a123systems.com/contact-us-purchasing-cells/

 

[TurnNBurn]

Good to know. I was looking at individual cells because I do have lots of time to work on it and it would be worth the effort. I would be able to use the individual cells to form a battery around the shape of the bike. I was going to make blocks so they're easily replaceable if a cell or group of cells go bad.

I'm looking into a123 20ah prismatics and they seem pretty hard to get a hold of. I saw a group buy on another site at $26 per cell. But I'm guessing since that was from 2012 that group buy is over with.

I have 24 20ah prismatics available for sale.

They are full tabs.

These are not the garbage cells like you see for sale now that have cut up/welded tabs.

It'll be about $800 (shipping, etc)

These are ones from a project that never came to fruition.

After the initial rush of sales, the availability of these cells has slowed to a trickle. Plus the ones that they are trying to sell now are scary sometimes. All cut up. extremely short tabs, etc.

I can send some pics. drop me a pm or email me at Eric@EVpowers.com

I might want to take you up on those batteries, but I'm going to do some more research first.

As for the a123 cells that come in the Dewalt tool packs, how are you guys finding those affordable? I'm finding them online for like $130, but I can find a123 cells for $8. Total cost of assembling your own pack is like 50% of the dewalt cost.

 

[docnjoj]

There are no A123 batteries in DeWalt power tools any more! Sorry. I don't remember the type or brand but it is in a thread here.
otherDoc

 

[TurnNBurn]

There are no A123 batteries in DeWalt power tools any more! Sorry. I don't remember the type or brand but it is in a thread here.
otherDoc

Are you sure? I'm finding a few online vendors that have the DC9360 battery packs still. Did they change from the A123 to something else?

 

[miro13car]

And in case you haven't seen it, here is a link that highlights a warning to anyone who is thinking about buying A123 20ah pouch cells.
This is the latest from a once-trusted overseas seller. Bad stuff out there so be careful
http://victpowerbadbattery.blogspot.se/
Except they are NOT made by A123, they are simple not A123 cells.
They kind of look a like but they are not A123.
Even from pictures they are slightly different sizes than A123 no any kind of printing on them.
You should know better.
if it is really from Victower so it is a scam.
I bought 30 from Victower with no problems, just because they bearly rejected on electrical testing requirement they are no garbage at all.
On testing equipment there is treshold set up : go , no go , simple as that, some cells bearly meet, same almost meet, would you call them garbage?
Other A123 puches were rejected because untidy folding , simple folding not nice enough=reject. They are no garbage cells to me and bet to all people on this forum.

 

[dogman dan]

All part of why I suggested that perhaps headways would provide plenty of c rate to do what he wants. If he will go really far, he might have to have a pack large enough to use 2c stuff and be fine.

Nothing wrong with the approach of starting out with 20 ah of decent A123 pouch, then add more ah with lesser cells paralleled.

 

[docnjoj]

There are no A123 batteries in DeWalt power tools any more! Sorry. I don't remember the type or brand but it is in a thread here.
otherDoc

Are you sure? I'm finding a few online vendors that have the DC9360 battery packs still. Did they change from the A123 to something else?

Older Dewalt batteries uses A123 26650 LiFePO4 cells. They have very high discharge rate, higher than 99% of ebike users will ever need. They are also the safest chemistry of all lithium.

Newer Dewalt batteries uses Samsung LiFePO4 cells. Not as high discharge rate as A123, but sufficient for most ebikes.

otherDoc