Hillhater
100 TW
100mm dia, 23kW in runner...??Sean9002 said:
http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/100mm/tp100-inrunner-brushless-motor-rc-boat-150kv-23000w/
Alien/TP Power TP100 inrunner
- Thread starter Hillhater
- Start date
http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/100mm/tp100-inrunner-brushless-motor-rc-boat-150kv-23000w/
crossbreak
1 MW
150KV means at least 2 stage reduction. Still interesting.... how many poles?
crossbreak said:
Does it? If you want full power form any motor you should run it at it's declared rpm, kv doesn't matter. It this motor were 1 kv, it would still need 2 stage reduction if you want full power from it. It's always the same motor, and should always give same power and rpm, kv only says about what phase current and voltage you should use.
Saying that, this motor is 25000 rpm for full power, and it has 10 magnets, so 5 pole pairs, or 125000 erpm for full power. You could run it at lower power and less rpm for ebike use, of course.
http://www.tppower.com/sort.asp?class_id=4&news=110
macribs
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Hillhater said:
I saw that the motor is listed as a boat motor, maybe they can only push 23kw peak with insane liquid cooling of some sort?
Wonder if anyone have tested this for e-bike. The weight and measurements seems to be ideal for us, with high continuous (12.5kw) and peak of 23kw.
Yes it does say Kv 150. So that would require jack shaft and reduction. But it also says they will do custom build for other power needs and other Kv. If wound like the Rv 120 there should be no need for reduction. And plenty of power in a light weight package.
@Riba2233 What do you mean by the Kv talk? 120 pro got Kv of 43 and that is what makes it possible to run with no reduction as far as my understanding goes? With kv of 150 like crossbreak says it would take 2 reductions to run.
What do you mean by saying Kv got nothing to do with it? Please explain as I might have got the wrong idea and understanding of this subject and that could lead to all kinds of wrong decisions being made.
What is the deal with the link, to tppower? Does Alienpower just put their badge on OEM motors? Really confused now. As the tppower motor and the TP100 inrunner from Alienpower seems to be the same motor :?
They are the same motor, tp power makes them.
As I've said, your motor will give it's rated power at rated rpm. Different KV only means that it has different number of turns, and according to that thicker or thinner wires in motor, and thus it can either be optimized for lower current and higher voltage, or vice versa. So, if your motor is 150 kv, and rated 10 kw at 25000 rpm, you must provide 166 V and 60 A if you want to use full power from your motor. If you have the same motor, but lets say 700 kv model, you must provide it with 36 V and 277 A for full power.
But, if you use 150 kv model, and use it with lower voltage, let's say 72 V, your max rpm will be 10800, and that's only half of it's rated rpm, so you can get only half of the rated power.
Power equals torque times rpm, and torque is defined by motors physical construction, so you can't increase it behind rated values. You could, by increasing current, but you would end up burning your motor. Note that if you have lower kv, that means that motor can accept higher voltage, but lower current, so you can't just use lower kv motor, run lower voltage, and higher current.
As I've said, your motor will give it's rated power at rated rpm. Different KV only means that it has different number of turns, and according to that thicker or thinner wires in motor, and thus it can either be optimized for lower current and higher voltage, or vice versa. So, if your motor is 150 kv, and rated 10 kw at 25000 rpm, you must provide 166 V and 60 A if you want to use full power from your motor. If you have the same motor, but lets say 700 kv model, you must provide it with 36 V and 277 A for full power.
But, if you use 150 kv model, and use it with lower voltage, let's say 72 V, your max rpm will be 10800, and that's only half of it's rated rpm, so you can get only half of the rated power.
Power equals torque times rpm, and torque is defined by motors physical construction, so you can't increase it behind rated values. You could, by increasing current, but you would end up burning your motor. Note that if you have lower kv, that means that motor can accept higher voltage, but lower current, so you can't just use lower kv motor, run lower voltage, and higher current.
macribs
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riba2233 said:
Hm so what you are saying is that electric motors are similar to combustion motors in regards to actual power? At at gas engine we know that max output power is reached at a certain RPM. Below that RPM the power can be significant less, depending on if there is a turbo, twin turbo or blower. Blowers/turbos give you a wider max output power band.
So in electric motors the max peak power is measured in a specific RPM? Take the Astro 3220. A motor known for its high power output. The reduction drive Matt has added is to let the motor work easier in its most efficient power band? And the TP 100 would with a reduction jack shaft (2 step reduction) perform better then the Astro 3220?
I was wrongfully in the understanding that each motor could be wound with various Kv so that max power would be achieved within the needs of buyer. For instance the Rv 120 has Kv of 43. But still has good peak power at 17 kw. What kind of A is needed for 17 kw from the RV 120?
And what about the TP100, at 20s battery how much A is needed for max peak power?
macribs said:
Yeah, the physics behind both is quite similar, because the same equation works; power = rpm*torque. But the difference is that electric motors have really wide torque range, and ICE don't. But as the power is raising with rpm, while the torque is constant (phase current limiting), max power will always be available near or at max rpm. There are some exceptions, like series DC motors and motors that use field weakening, they can have constant power band through the wider part of rpm, but while the power is constant, torque is decreasing (remember, power=rpm*torque, so if the power is the same, and rpm is increasing, torque must be decreasing).
Yes, that's true. Astro and other high rpm motors need high reduction ratio so that you can get their rated power at wheels, in usable rpm range. It's hard to say which motor would perform better, but tp100 is more powerful motor, but would require higher reduction ratio for it's rated power.
Yeah, max power is always in the same rpm range, independent of kv. Same motors with different kv only exist so you can use different voltages and currents on the same motor. But the end result should always be the same, same max power, same rpm, same efficiency... I'm not sure at what rpm is rv120's power rated, but I see that they use max 72V and around 3200 rpm on their graphs. So, if you want 17kw at 72V, you would need 236 A from the battery.
For 20s, or 72v, you should use 350kv motor, and on their table it states 300A max. But is must be typo, it should be 360A. That's for max peak power, 25kw. (72V*360A=25920W)
No, higher is better..... Km neutralises Kv, so that you can compare motors with different velocity constants. sKm neutralises mass, so that you can compare the effectiveness of different sizes of motor at producing torque.riba2233 said:
You can set the rpm to whatever you want
macribs said:riba2233 said:
I assume you are talking about peak phase current from controller, not from the batteries?
Thanks alot riba2233. Your explanation was top notch. Finally I was able to understand.
Thx for taking the time to educate a simpleton
Thanks, I'm glad I was able to explain, it can sometimes be hard just by writing.
I'm talking about battery values, both voltage and current. power = voltage*current, so if you have 17000w at 72v, that's 236A. I'm not sure how many phase amps would that be, if someone has some equation for calculating phase current based on rpm and battery current, that would be nice.
Miles said:
Thanks
crossbreak
1 MW
for calculating phase current, you need some more values than just Rm, KV and bat voltage. I made a start here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=59409
If it is really 10p, then 25krpm would mean 125 erpm! Eddy currents must be enormous. Can't believe that it shall be only 58W at 7.2krpm. At 25krpm it should be (25/7.2)²= 12 times as much, only 700W?
The no load current is given for 10V, that would be 1500rpmMiles said:
If it is really 10p, then 25krpm would mean 125 erpm! Eddy currents must be enormous. Can't believe that it shall be only 58W at 7.2krpm. At 25krpm it should be (25/7.2)²= 12 times as much, only 700W?
speedmd
10 MW
The alien 100 is a much smaller / lower torque motor than even the revolt 120. Don't see it as a direct single reduction to wheel option or a suitable comparison at all. It does look interesting. Agree, a in-runner would be a much cleaner/ easier build, but not much has shown up at the proposed revolt 160 price / performance range. The 120 size is attractive. Both it and the 160 would be better fits if just a bit narrower. Any dimensions on this motor?
macribs
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riba2233 said:
For instance a 320 piece 18650 pack @20s will be 16p. Battery A will be only 93A. My understanding is that you can draw peak phase A much larger then the A of the battery. I guess here also comes C rating to play. IIRC from such a battery the right controller can give the motor peak phase current of 350 A.
If one would rely solely on the total A of the battery one would need 20s60p or 1200 pieces of 18650 to push 350 A. That would be an insane amount of batteries.
It seems that phase current is always greater then battery current.
If there is a way to calculate phase current like you say that would be nice and would help me getting a better understanding.
crossbreak
1 MW
I got all formulas in my spreadsheet. Have a brief look into it. Then you will get why phase amps are the same as battery current at higher rpm. The Duty-cycle tells you how much current amplification there is for a certain point. This also has to do with current limiting. Have a look into the wiki, i made some graphs to explain current limits http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Controllers
Your battery simply has to meet you max controller power. Simple. Just calc Volt*bat_Amps_limit=Watts. Say you need 270A at 72V = 20kW, then the battery has to be capable of that. Say you use INR-25r batteries, the can do 3.6V*15A= 0.054 kW each. So you need at least 20/0.054= 370pcs
Your battery simply has to meet you max controller power. Simple. Just calc Volt*bat_Amps_limit=Watts. Say you need 270A at 72V = 20kW, then the battery has to be capable of that. Say you use INR-25r batteries, the can do 3.6V*15A= 0.054 kW each. So you need at least 20/0.054= 370pcs
