Another Newbie - this one from the States

W

wyattcox

100 µW
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
7
Hello all!

Bought a Wilderness Energy 24v kit then upgraded to 36v Brushed kit for my baby....

borntobemildgt4.jpg


Noticed as summer got here the SLA batteries didn't have the ummph, so replaced the originals and got a second battery pack; Only afterwards discovering that SLA's don't do well in temps above 90, a condition that exists with some regularity here in Lost Wages (106 tomorrow)...

Some questions:

How feasable is adding a fourth battery to the existing 3 battery pack? One page I dragged up showed adding a fourth SLA but no real mention of performance increase.

An old Wilderness Energy page found cached at Google suggests using Deep Cycle Marine batteries on a trike. Doable?

Oh, any idea on a source for those connectors that WE puts on the battery packs. I thought it was a Radio Shack stock item....

I'm willing to try anything that isn't too complicated...
 
If you are riding the trike in the picture you could put 6 SLAs in there 36V + 36V paralled and have less voltage sag and lots more range.
If the batteries have the spade terminals, 12AH batteries I think are 1/4" spade connectors you can get at Home Depot.
 
Welcome to the forum, wyatt, from another old trike rider. I also have a WE BD36 on my front wheel (plus two more on a "power" trailer). I live on the "cool" Oregon coast (about 60 today) and have not experienced any battery sag issues. If you upgrade to a 48V system I would like to know what problems you encounter and how it works out for you. Good luck.
 
Hello Wyatt
I have a setup almost like yours,a brushed Crystalyte motor running at 36volts
I've got issues with battery performance here in Canada but not due to heat,rather here it's the opposite,the cold.From what I've read battery performance ussually increases with warm temperatures and decreases with the cold temps.Mind you battery life decreases as ambient temperature increases past 77deg.F. Here's some of the article that I've read copied and pasted from the site found here at

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Temperature%20Effects%20on%20Batteries

Temperature Effects on Batteries

Battery capacity (how many amp-hours it can hold) is reduced as temperature goes down, and increased as temperature goes up. This is why your car battery dies on a cold winter morning, even though it worked fine the previous afternoon. If your batteries spend part of the year shivering in the cold, the reduced capacity has to be taken into account when sizing the system batteries. The standard rating for batteries is at room temperature - 25 degrees C (about 77 F). At approximately -22 degrees F (-27 C), battery AH capacity drops to 50%. At freezing, capacity is reduced by 20%. Capacity is increased at higher temperatures - at 122 degrees F, battery capacity would be about 12% higher.

Charge voltage vs Temperature for AGM and Flooded batteriesBattery charging voltage also changes with temperature. It will vary from about 2.74 volts per cell (16.4 volts) at -40 C to 2.3 volts per cell (13.8 volts) at 50 C. This is why you should have temperature compensation on your charger or charge control if your batteries are outside and/or subject to wide temperature variations. Some charge controls have temperature compensation built in (such as Morningstar) - this works fine if the controller is subject to the same temperatures as the batteries. However, if your batteries are outside, and the controller is inside, it does not work that well. Adding another complication is that large battery banks make up a large thermal mass.

Thermal mass means that because they have so much mass, they will change internal temperature much slower than the surrounding air temperature. A large insulated battery bank may vary as little as 10 degrees over 24 hours internally, even though the air temperature varies from 20 to 70 degrees. For this reason, external (add-on) temperature sensors should be attached to one of the POSITIVE plate terminals, and bundled up a little with some type of insulation on the terminal. The sensor will then read very close to the actual internal battery temperature.

Click to see larger graph of Battery Capacity vs TemperatureEven though battery capacity at high temperatures is higher, battery life is shortened. Battery capacity is reduced by 50% at -22 degrees F - but battery LIFE increases by about 60%. Battery life is reduced at higher temperatures - for every 15 degrees F over 77, battery life is cut in half. This holds true for ANY type of Lead-Acid battery, whether sealed, gelled, AGM, industrial or whatever. This is actually not as bad as it seems, as the battery will tend to average out the good and bad times. Click on the small graph to see a full size chart of temperature vs capacity.

One last note on temperatures - in some places that have extremely cold or hot conditions, batteries may be sold locally that are NOT standard electrolyte (acid) strengths. The electrolyte may be stronger (for cold) or weaker (for very hot) climates. In such cases, the specific gravity and the voltages may vary from what we show.

Hope this helps with the temperature thing.If you increase the voltage to 48 volts by adding another 12 volt battery in series make sure your controller can handle the extra voltage.
I "think" the deep cycle marine batts are doable.

Eric
 
Instant Karma said:
If you are riding the trike in the picture you could put 6 SLAs in there 36V + 36V paralled and have less voltage sag and lots more range.
If the batteries have the spade terminals, 12AH batteries I think are 1/4" spade connectors you can get at Home Depot.
Click to expand...

Since I have two of the 36V packs, theoretically I could hook both up?

It's not the spade terminal connectors I'm looking for, it's the connectors from the battery to the controller...
 
Eric G said:
Hello Wyatt
I have a setup almost like yours,a brushed Crystalyte motor running at 36volts
I've got issues with battery performance here in Canada but not due to heat,rather here it's the opposite,the cold.From what I've read battery performance ussually increases with warm temperatures and decreases with the cold temps.Mind you battery life decreases as ambient temperature increases past 77deg.F.
Click to expand...

Excellent information and exactly what I discovered. I previously made an 18 mile round trip on a single battery pack at a cooler temp ( around 80)but went through two fully charged packs 5 miles into a 9 mile ride to work. 107 degrees. I know, bad idea.




Eric G said:
If you increase the voltage to 48 volts by adding another 12 volt battery in series make sure your controller can handle the extra voltage.
I "think" the deep cycle marine batts are doable.

Eric
Click to expand...

Well, the only reason I'm considering the increase to 48v is what I saw here:

http://pages.videotron.com/guizzmo/

Here's what I found from the cached page of WE's old site:

While electric bicycles dominate the light Electric Vehicle market, there are a lot of good reasons to put your Wilderness Energy electric bike conversion kit on a tricycle instead. Here are some of the reasons why:

* STABILITY - Three wheel electric bikes are much better than two wheel electric bicycles in many respects. They don't tip over and they grip the road better which translates into a safer and better braking electric bicycle.

** WEIGHT CARRYING CAPACITY - On a two wheel E-bike, there are a couple of issues that you must deal with regarding batteries that you won't have with an E-tricycle. Where are you going to mount the battery pack, and what is the maximum weight battery pack that your bicycle can handle? If you put your battery pack on a rear bike rack, (recommended solution for the Bike Electrified kit), then your battery pack should not weigh more than 30 lbs., or your E-bike will tend to tip over and will be unstable when taking corners or on rough terraine. With an electric tricycle, you usually have a large rear cargo basket, and quite possibly a front handlebar basket too. Plus the three wheel configeration allows you to carry a great deal more weight with little effect on the E-Trike's stability. What this means is that you can use much larger batteries, in effect quadrupling your electric tricycle's range. For example: the battery pack that comes with your Bike Electrified BD36 kit is made up of 3-12 volt, 12 amp/hr batteries, and it weighs 28 lbs. However, you can build your own battery pack using either 30 amp/hr Lawn & Garden/Motorcycle batteries, Car batteries, or even Marine batteries. It's up to you to decide how much weight you think your electric trike can handle, and how far you'd like to go on a single charge.

This Wilderness Energy dealer in Vancouver used our Bike Electrified BD36 kit to build this e-trike, but instead of putting the battery pack inside the rear basket, they mounted the battery pack just in front of the basket on the frame.
Unfortunately WE don't have a picture of a similar E-trike with large batteries put inside the rear basket. But rest assured our customers have put as much as 200+ lbs worth of batteries (something like 3 - Deep Cycle Marine, 108 amp/hr batteries weighing 70 lbs each = total battery weight of 210 lbs.)
108 amp/hrs is 9 times the capacity of Wilderness Energy's 12 amp/hr battery pack, which means you could conceivably get 180 miles out your Deep Cycle Marine Pack!

Here is an example of another type of electric trike. Note: this model also allows you to mount a very heavy, large capacity battery pack.

And finally, if you still want to ride your electric bicycle, here is an idea to get crazy range!

This inventive customer built a trailer to haul 100+ lbs of batteries, with cargo stapped on top! Note: he also continued to use the battery pack that came with his kit, probably as a back-up.


*** Batteries used with our Bike Electrified universal electric bike kits can be any amperage size, as long as you build a battery pack that puts out 36 volts. Most batteries used in the car, boat and small engine markets are 12 volt batteries, so you will need to get 3 - 12 volt batteries and connect them together in series. Click here to see a battery wiring diagram illustrating how to connect your batteries together.
As far a charging goes, you can use the 36 volt charger that comes with your Bike Electrified electric bike kit, or you can contact us to special order a heavier duty, faster-charging lead acid battery charger. The charger that comes with your electric bike kit is a 2 amp charger, which means it puts out 2 amps per hour. If you have a 30 amp/hr batt-pack, this means it will take 15 hrs to recharge a completely dead battery pack. Anything over a 20 amp/hr battery pack should have a higher capacity charger. SONEIL INC. in Canada makes a high-quality, 5 amp, lead acid charger. This will charge a 20 amp/hr pack in 4 hrs, a 40 amp/hr pack in 8 hrs, etc. Call us to special order these chargers, since you will pay a lot more if you order one directly from Soniel yourself.
Click to expand...

Google of course didn't cache the pictures or wiring diagrams, but I found the diagram by going through archive.org's wayback machine.

I could test the 48V pack pretty easily as I have all the parts along with a spare 24v charger. The Marine battery route would run about $150 in low end batteries and $50 for a good charger. Methinks I'll go the route of least resistance for the moment. I wonder if the auto parts store across the street might have the connector?

Running off to check...
 
Wyatt,those are trailer connectors and are easily found. Walmart sells them in the Automotive section. That's where I bought mine from.

How old are your batteries,do you charge them as soon as you stop riding?How far do you run them down to? The reason I ask is I've ridden in 100deg weather up here (yep Canada can get warm in summer) and I've not had a problem with capacity because of heat.

As long as you're confident your controller will do 48v then go for it. If the main capacitors inside the controller are 60 volts then there shouldn't be a problem.

Eric
 
Howdy.

Not all trailer connectors are alike. The Walmart units may be of lighter guage wire. You might consider using a four-conductor trailer connector and binding it into two pairs: two for pos, two for neg. It should handle more load that way. You can also check at your local hobby store for connectors at the R/C counter.

As for your controller, you might want to check the FETs to see what the ratings are. If you can report the part number here, others can help you find the ratings.
 
Tyler is right, and the Walmart units are too light for the motor. There is a company in Eugene, Oregon that manufactures the 10 gauge ones.

Side story: I live in a small Oregon coast town and the only auto parts store here carries these units. When I went to Eugene to install a hub motor on my son's tandem bike, we needed to lengthen the cable. I knew one of these units would work like an extension cord right out of the package (normally you cut the wire and use the terminals as needed). So we drove all over Eugene and never found a store that handles them. I ended up buying one here and mailing it to him.

This issue has come up before. I will go to the parts store and get the names and parts number and post it here. Then any local parts store should be able to order one in for you.

It's called "2-way 10 GA Trailer Connector" Part Number "1878 PT"
Made By "PICO Eugene, OR 97402"
 
Didn't find any connectors at WalMart but found a set at Autozone and will look more this weekend.

I always try to charge the batteries right back up. They're only about four months old, but the brand new ones had the same problem...
 
Yes the thicker the wire gauge the better esp.for longer runs. The battery hookup wires coming out of my controller are 16g,I have my batteries connected together in series with doubled up 12g.My batteries are about 6 inches away from the controller.I cut most of the wire off the trailer connectors leaving enough wire (~ 1 in.) to solder the wires from the batteries to the connecter and did the same on the controller side and covered the lot with heat shrink tubing and some elec.tape for added security.

Leaving sla's uncharged even for a matter hours could hurt them esp.after a long run.When you ride to work do you charge while at work? Deep discharges also shorten the batteries life.

Perhaps someone else here at the forum with more knowledge can chime in here on your battery issues.

Good Luck
Eric
 
To change or extend the wires from the battery to controller, or controller to motor on the Wilderness Energy kits you should use, IMO, 10 or 12 GA components. There is a 2-way 10 GA Trailer Connector made (or supplied) by PICO of Eugene, OR. It is Part Number 1878.

http://www.picowiring.com/pdf/PICO-18-19.pdf

I don't know if these guys are set up for retail orders, but any auto parts store should be able to obtain them for you.
 
Thanks to everyone for their help.

Bought a second charger - a Soneil - through eBay and it works great.

I found this battery up on eBay as well. Any thoughts about using it rather than three 12V 12ah SLA's??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280149278160&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=280142898543&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
 
If 36 volts gives you enough speed then you don't need to increase your voltage. To increase your distance you need more Ah. You indicated that you went 18 miles and if you did this on 12 Ah batteries without a recharge that is a long ways. If you allow your batteries to discharge below 70% then you will shorted the life of the batteries considerably. Do you know what the cut off voltage of your controller is? If you are using a 24 volt controller with 36 volts of batteries then the cut off voltage is too low unless it was reset to a higher voltage.

On the 36 volt battery you saw on ebay, two of these in parallel would give you 24 Ah (good Ah) for $186.44 delivered ($7.77 per Ah). For $150 delivered you could buy three UB12220 with 22 Ah ($7.50 per Ah) from either of these sites. http://www.ragebattery.com/power-sonic/40696.html, or http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/ (search for ub12220)

Can you fit three of these batteries in your basket? http://www.ragebattery.com/power-sonic/D5722.html $188.85 delivered 35 Ah ($5.40 per Ah), that should get you to work and back. 8)

Good luck
 
Personally, I'd prefer 3 separate 12v batteries to a single 36v one.
This way if one cell goes bad or out of balance, it can be individually replaced or charged. I'd also rather use 3 separate 12v chargers than one 36v charger to help maintain balance.

Since all the cells are made at the same time and have been stored under the same conditions in the 36v battery, they should stay relatively balanced, so you may never have trouble with balance anyway.
 
fechter said:
Personally, I'd prefer 3 separate 12v batteries to a single 36v one.
This way if one cell goes bad or out of balance, it can be individually replaced or charged.
Click to expand...

My vote too.

24V electric mowers use the UB1220. They are available over the counter at your local discount battery vendor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top