Are these BYD BEV specs believable?

Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
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I've been reading over at ABG and wow the BYD specs are well....unbelievable to me.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/13/detroit-2009-byds-plug-in-hybrids-the-f3dm-and-f6dm/

Their Fe battery is cheaper to make than Li-Ion
Thier plug-in hybrid will go 60 miles all electric
The car is going to go on sale for $20,000
The PHEV and be quick charged to 50% in 10 min?
2000 cycle life

The all electric version has a claimed 249 mile distance?

Does anyone know anything about this Fe batt?

Sounds like ZAP style hyperbole to me but what do I know....

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
 
Hi,

I bet "Fe" means "LipoFe".

(I added the bold):
The F6DM's Fe battery pack can be quick-charged to 50 percent of its capacity in only 10 minutes. It can be fully recharged from a normal household power outlet in seven hours.

EV spec's tend to be optimistic (range at a constant 55mph on level ground).

A huge issue will be quality. CIoser to Crystalyte (or less) quality or Heinzmann quality?
 
Pretty hard to believe.

Price, maybe for one still in china.

Range, all range tests are made at 5 mph, preferably with a 10 mph tailwind.

Fast charge, yes, but not with a charger you can afford.

And don't forget, in the US, it will be a NEV, so even if it can do 50 mph, you will have to drive it at 25.
 
I didn't read anything about it being an NEV did I miss that?

How they going to make LifePo's so magically cheaper than what Li-Cobalt or Li-Mag??
 
Hi,

madmadscientist said:
How they going to make LifePo's so magically cheaper than what Li-Cobalt or Li-Mag??

Low quality and exploiting workers.
 
MitchJi said:
Hi,

Low quality and exploiting workers.

Ha ya but those must be some magical LiFePo's to get that kind of range 249 miles in a 4 door toyota camery looking sedan?? Does not seem possible.
They are a publically traded company so maybe this is just a big scam to drive up the stock price? Though Warren Buffet is no dummy.

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
 
Hi Daniel,

madmadscientist said:
Ha ya but those must be some magical LiFePo's to get that kind of range 249 miles in a 4 door toyota camery looking sedan?? Does not seem possible.

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA

About the same as a Tesla (50kwh pack - 900 lbs) . The Tesla has better aerodynamics and is lighter but its not a big technical challenge to do that. The challenge is doing it at an affordable price with good quality cells, bms, pack construction etc.
 
sounds like a load of BS to me!wasn't the tesla's specs completely made up in the beginning?The program top gear here in the uk test drove it and got 50 miles out of a charge, they were thrashing it but thats way under the specs.The specs probably say "* driving at 30mph with no fan on windows down etc. I don't think electric cars will ever be a realitym i would love them to be but the government just has too much to lose. They need a way of having an infrastructure to charge u per litre, hydrogen is the way its going if u like it or not, and hydrogen sucks, it completely defies all logic to use hydrogen power.
 
I remember reading an article about this. Apparently BYD is one of the worlds largest manufactures of lithium batteries for electronic devices and one of the fastest growing companies in china.
 
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/01/byd-shows-produ.html#more
BYD Auto, which is a subsidiary of China-based BYD Group, the leading provider of NiCd batteries (65% global market share) and lithium-ion cell phone batteries (30% global market share), uses BYD lithium-ion iron phosphate cells in its energy storage system. BYD says that its battery packs retain 80% of initial capacity through 2,000 full charge and discharge cycles, and have a 10-year lifetime.

The F3DM. The powertrain combines a 50 kW (67 hp) 1.0-liter gasoline engine, a 25 kW generator and a 50 kW traction motor. Combined range is 360 miles (580 km) with a 100 km (62 mile) all-electric range. BYD says that the F3DM consumes ≤16 kWh/100km, or 258 Wh/mile. (To provide a comparison point, the Chevrolet Volt is designed to consume 8 kWh in 40 miles, or 200 Wh/mile.)

Acceleration from 0-60 mph is 10.5 seconds, with a top speed of 93 mph (150 km/h). The battery pack can be fully recharged from a household outlet in 7 hours. BYD says it can be quick charged to 50% capacity in 10 minutes.

The F6DM. The F6DM shares the same powertrain as that of the F3DM. Combined range is 267 miles (430 km) with an all-electric range of 62-miles (100km).

The e6. BYD says it is planning four motor combinations for the e6, which can offer all-wheel drive with front and rear motors: 75 kW; 75 kW + 40 kW; 160 kW; and 160 kW + 40 kW. Electric power consumption will be less than 18 kWh/100km (290 Wh/mile).

Also present at the Detroit press conference was David Sokol, the chairman of MidAmerican Energy Holdings Company, the Berkshire Hathaway unit that last year took a 10% stake in BYD. (Earlier post.)

Sokol said that MidAmerican invested in BYD primarily because of the battery technology. Sokol later told Reuters that whether or not BYD manufactured their own cars wasn’t relevant to MidAmerican, because the real expertise was in the development of the batteries, the motors and the control systems.

At the show, BYD chairman Wang Chuan-Fu said the company would consider licensing its low-cost battery technology.
 
Those lithium batteries that work so reliably in your cell phone, laptop, and other devices is most likely made by byd. Why wouldn't they be able to make a decent electric car battery? Here is another article http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/byd-electric-car-e6-crossover-mpv.php
 
Hi,

africanandy187 said:
sounds like a load of BS to me!wasn't the tesla's specs completely made up in the beginning?The program top gear here in the uk test drove it and got 50 miles out of a charge, they were thrashing it but thats way under the specs.The specs probably say "* driving at 30mph with no fan on windows down etc.

Completely made up?! :lol:

Link with brief excerpt:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=70

With more than 100 Roadsters delivered to customers so far and more on the road each week, it’s natural for some customers to run “experiments” on them. Because we have such an entrepreneurial and highly technical customer base, many of these experiments are quite detailed and attempt to answer questions that we have in some cases never discussed publicly.

ne of the most common and tricky experiments is testing how far the Roadster will go on a single charge in various driving conditions. For the latest powertrain configuration (powertrain 1.5), we have demonstrated dynamometer test results of 244 miles range in a complicated combination of highway and city drive cycles defined by the EPA.

However, this is just one data point; real-world range can vary substantially depending on driving style, environmental conditions, and usage of accessories such as the electric cabin air conditioning system and the electric cabin heating system. The cycles defined by the EPA attempt to make a representative average of these different factors and combine it into one number. Many customers, potential customers and curious observers want the details behind this average and how results may change depending on conditions.

We need a designed set of experiments to understand how efficiently or how far a Roadster could drive under different conditions. This can quickly become a huge amount of testing as there are so many variables and conditions, but fortunately we have spent quite a bit of time internally building a very accurate computer model of how the Roadster will behave under different driving scenarios. We’ve validated the model by testing at a reduced number of points — enough to give us good confidence in the results. The details of this model are quite interesting and could be a whole separate blog, but for now let’s just use it as a tool to help us understand Roadster efficiency and range.

The simplest experiment to consider, and one that gives great insight into the whole vehicle performance, is how efficiency and range vary as a function of driving speed. This is assuming that speed is held constant (i.e. cruise control) at each point. For any test or model run, there are many inputs that need to be specifically stated to make the results meaningful. So here are some of the critical inputs that we have assumed:
• Single driver ~180lbs
• Soft top or Hard top on vehicle (with windows up)
• No air conditioning usage
• No heat usage
• No headlights or cabin air blower (large 12V loads)
• Tires inflated to recommended efficiency setting 30/40 front/rear psi

The outputs of this model run are in battery energy usage per mile. In the case of an EV this is typically expressed in terms of Wh/mile. A 100W light blub running for 1 hour will use 100 Wh of electricity. Since 1 Watt is also just 1 Joule/second you can easily convert Wh into Joules by multiplying by (60 [seconds])*(60 [minutes]). It is also important to note that we are discussing DC Wh/mile or energy coming OUT of the battery pack inside the vehicle. This is very relevant to range but does not consider the losses associated with the onboard battery charger or some of the slight round-trip energy losses in the battery itself....

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africanandy187 said:
sounds like a load of BS to me!wasn't the tesla's specs completely made up in the beginning?The program top gear here in the uk test drove it and got 50 miles out of a charge, they were thrashing it but thats way under the specs.The specs probably say "* driving at 30mph with no fan on windows down etc. I don't think electric cars will ever be a realitym i would love them to be but the government just has too much to lose. They need a way of having an infrastructure to charge u per litre, hydrogen is the way its going if u like it or not, and hydrogen sucks, it completely defies all logic to use hydrogen power.
besides the whole "completely made up" BS that you have spouted you've also served to propagate a falsehood: Top Gear did NOT run out of juice at 50-some miles. their shot of pushing a Tesla into a garage was entirely staged. it was theatrics. they did not run out of electricity.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=did+tesla+run+out+of+juice+top+gear&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 <-- numerous sources attest to this
 
Dynamometer range test? So that means no wind resistance. even better than a tailwind.

On the NEV thing, very few of the latest electric cars can sell in the USA as a regular car, they flunk the crash test, or can't afford to get one done. Either way, the end up on the road as a NEV. Hopefully the govenor is easy to hack. Even the european light cars are running into this problem with the US having such high crash standards. It may be a good thing though, the way we drive.

It does look good to me as an electric car, and 50 mile range with a 1000 foot climb on the route would be plenty for me, and many others. But several hundred mile range, that is a bit hard to believe in the real world for me. I routinely cut all range claims in half now. 100 mile range should be doable, but for 20k that would be a good price on the lifepo4.
 
Top Gear did NOT run out of juice at 50-some miles. their shot of pushing a Tesla into a garage was entirely staged. it was theatrics. they did not run out of electricity.

Sorry about that, thats just what i saw in the program. i cant believe they faked it going dead though!I'm glad you said that as i won't trust anything they say from now on.They are constantly trying to make EV's look bad on that show, which i hate, they also make fun of the G Wiz all the time, which in reality is a great little car for the money and if you need an EV around town. Its like £6000 which is completely acceptable and is the only EV i know of that is trying to actually do it in the reasonably priced category. Anyway Top gear is a great government brain washing tool: "petrol cars are cool, EV's are not" kind of attitude.
 
Okay so they are using their own version of Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries. It doesn't sound like anything super special.
On the comparision to the Tesla-the Tesla uses Lithium-Cobalt batteries which have much better specs than LifePo's correct?
BYD makes tons of laptop batteries but does that skill set transfer to large format LifePo's?
Do these BYD LifePo's even actually exist yet? Are they in 'real' production?

Doesn't it seem that with those specs they must of figured out some quantum jump is power density for LifePo batteries?

Not an Expert but it does seem like a stretch...

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
 
madmadscientist said:
Okay so they are using their own version of Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries. It doesn't sound like anything super special.
On the comparision to the Tesla-the Tesla uses Lithium-Cobalt batteries which have much better specs than LifePo's correct?
BYD makes tons of laptop batteries but does that skill set transfer to large format LifePo's?
Do these BYD LifePo's even actually exist yet? Are they in 'real' production?

Doesn't it seem that with those specs they must of figured out some quantum jump is power density for LifePo batteries?

Not an Expert but it does seem like a stretch...

Daniel Neumansky
Alameda CA
Their technology isn't revolutionary but the fact that they are using it is. They have been selling plug in hybrids in china for a year now. They don't have the power density of tesla batteries but they aren't building a sports car. They are building a usable, hopefully reliable ev for a reasonable price. I am just glad someone is doing something. No doubt their vehicles won't be perfect but they could pave the way for other manufacturers. So here's hoping 8)
 
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