Biggest changes in DIY ebikes over the past 5 years?

[bnoooogers]

What have been the biggest changes to ebikes in the past 5 years? Back in 2017 the Leaf 1500W was all the rage, there was a bunch of drama about the Luna Cycles guy, and battery building was a pain in the ass (its not still a pain in the ass, is it??).

I built a bike 5 years ago then stopped following Endless Sphere to go ride it. Now one theft later I'm back and hoping the DIY scene is way easier than it used to be! Five years ago I built a commuter bike using:

• a cheap 1000W ebay motor ($150 shipped)

• 850Wh (16Ah, 14s) of Zippy Lipo from HobbyKing ($350 shipped)

• and splurged on a phaserunner ($300)

Is that still a reasonable thing to do? Are there better battery sources now? I see that motor prices have gone up 30+% and the phaserunner isn't even available thanks to the semiconductor madness. Are torque arms still custom waterjet cutter projects? What have y'all been up to??

 

[calab]

Prices for the components

Shipping prices

Only get the phase runner if your going to utilize it, otherwise just get a generic sensorless controller for cheap. Motors are $225'ish now, batteries can vary from cheesy to solid, but yeah $350-500 for low wh/ah/less range. I would put battery at $500-750 for a good decently built battery, maybe splurge on the Satiator charger, 48v 8a version if thats the voltage. Meanwell chargers are an option for non-mobile charging unless you go with the LED version.

Nothing else has changed as thin lams been around, same with curved magnets if any benefit, same with double motor wires, maybe in the last 5 years maybe the geared mac, or something else Grintech has made, the fancy torque arms built into the motor, the wire routing not out of the end of the axle, I believe statorades been out longer then 5 yrs. The mass produced market wont change much, its all the independents like grin or luna.

 

[Audisport09]

I definitely agree on the prices for the components. Glad I built my bikes two years ago. Prices have shot up on pretty much everything

 

[dogman dan]

I'd say the real big change is bike shops sell e bikes now, often very pricy, but with nice mid drives. Lots of progress in non diy.

And in the last two years, just try to get the brand of anything you like in the grocery on a given day. Worse for anything else. But with any luck, US retailers will get some stock this spring. Containers should start arriving with shit they ordered last fall. Ordering from china, its just about past lunar new year, so people will be back to work.

Best battery I ever owned was from Luna, the fully potted fully waterproof wolf pack. I was testing it hard though, and it did fail early. I deliberately abused it hard. It had a lovely magnetic mount. No rattle with that!

Run one on 20 amps and it should last real nice. Charging it with a satiator, I had the ability to charge outside even during a rainstorm. But not that hard to make a dry place to charge lipos outside, if you want to keep doing that. Do charge outside your house. Since you were here last, I burned down my garage with a cheap battery.

No stock of that Luna batter for quite some time though. But hopefully some shit is on the way for everybody.

 

[DogDipstick]

We got EV cells now lying round like candy, build much better than retail athome.

I know Dan loves his Luna battery. Calls it his best. But it failed. Yes, may be safer or "ul listed"... And turnkey, that my battery is not....

But diy home made? Easy and cheap if you want nowadays.

I paid 140$ for my first EV cell battery, and ripped down the 2 kWh and used 20 of the original b32 cells from the EV module... About 80$ dolla worth of the original purchase.

I can't kill it. It beats the Energizer bunny senseless, head to head.

Wet, cold, overcharged,over discharges. Charged and run freezing for months. Outside.

For years. I cannot kill it, and still gives more power that I can handle. Banged, slapped, lasted through two bikes so far and one car. Dropped, left in the rain. Run a spot welder from it. Heat the garage with it. I have done all these things. Cannot kill it.

Bought it five years used, now it's 8 year old cells from an EV car. Flood car, 140$ for the 2 kWh module, from Green TEC... And used a little over half of it.

I could never... Ever, afford a Luna battery so my experience there is moot. One of those is more than my yearly taxes.

Lina battery is still... 1000$ kWh for a 20A battery... I paid 80$ for my first 1.27 kWh EV battery. 400A contin, over 2000A pulsed power for a few milliseconds.

We got EV cells now, readily available diy.

Best motor you can buy is still under 200$. Better than the Leaf motor, but in the same category.

https://www.amazon.com/QSMOTOR-bicycle-Brushelss-including-freewheel/dp/B07DC27M94/ref=sr_1_7?qid=1645319190&sr=8-7&srs=19835919011

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

I can't add too much, but I have noticed the DIY/makerspace is being pandered too like never before. We can now buy timer circuits for spot welders off of amazon that require purchasers to supply their own transformer, and every part you desire to build a battery is easily found and sourced.

We got EV cells now lying round like candy, build much better than retail athome.
...
https://www.amazon.com/QSMOTOR-bicycle-Brushelss-including-freewheel/dp/B07DC27M94/ref=sr_1_7?qid=1645319190&sr=8-7&srs=19835919011

Okay, I need not only a build thread, but I need you to tell me MORE about both your pack and this motor, because I'm scared to start making my first battery and I need some inspiration for a small pack.

 

[calab]

Is it truly UL Listed? Its a good bet that it is. I would buy a luna pack if I needed one, but I would first look at the vehicle battery modules or battery clearing house if the price was right.

The modular batteries from grin should really be 12v not 36v, some people want 48v or even 60v so that might be something they put out.

We got EV cells now lying round like candy, build much better than retail athome.
I know Dan loves his Luna battery. Calls it his best. But it failed. Yes, may be safer or "ul listed"... And turnkey, that my battery is not....

 

[Comrade]

Haven't the operating voltages been drifting up and up over the years?

 

[calab]

Nope, its just your bog standard 36v 48v maybe 52v and maybe 60v as few people go much higher then that in voltages.
Those that do go higher, soon go back to sane voltages and common sense speeds once they get scared or fall.

A good way to help maintain sane safe speeds is just to build an ebike thats restricted, go 36v and 20a rather then 48v and 35a. You dont need a cycle analyst or any pedal assist stuff to do that. But once you hit that hill on 36v 20a you wont get up the hill with no effort like you would with 48v 35a, watts is everything for hills, voltage is everything for speed.

Haven't the operating voltages been drifting up and up over the years?

 

[Comrade]

Those that do go higher, soon go back to sane voltages and common sense speeds once they get scared or fall.

Higher voltage doesn't mean more power. Higher voltage means more efficient (and compact & cheaper) equipment. Just like electric vehicles are moving to higher voltage packs.

There just weren't many high voltage power MOSFETs available in the past as there are now.

 

[DogDipstick]

Nope, its just your bog standard 36v 48v maybe 52v and maybe 60v as few people go much higher then that in voltages.
Those that do go higher, soon go back to sane voltages and common sense speeds once they get scared or fall.

Lol I kinda disagree. The young beginner starts 48, v. Tries 52v. Wants more.
Grand scheme of things? We never had an automobile industry so mobilized. FOur major resalers of used, good, long lasting ev packs I could name right now selling more and more every year. Pre- year2000 you would be hard pressed to ever hear about a battery crapping out on the dragstrip at 4000A... because your controller was 7000A and the battery couldnt keep with the IGBT's demand.. puny 4000A drag. You hear that shit nowadays. See it on Youtube.

Yes, above 100v it gets more dangerous, then upwards of 360v, ( cars) and whatnot. Not retail market or beginner friendly. Expensive. Need real electrically rated stuff, not plastic ebike yellow connector blocks from the cheapest suppliers in the " kit".
I know twenty guys who went 72v and will never go back. I probably know twenty more above 100v. ( ebikes, eboats, e-motorcycles and diy cars) I know ten probably over 400v, diy, cars, dragrsacers... here also. Lots of 24s, 30s, 34s builds. Kelly keeps the 144v controllers in stock for sure. Hell I know a few people with 150v+ DC solar battery banks plugged into the inverter. 72v is the low limit for reasonable power ( you saw it on golf carts and forklifts, big scissor lifts, ect.. since the 1980s alot... ) and... and...

... even the Baker Electric car was 84 volts in 1907.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

Below 50 volts DC and if you get shocked you most likely live.

Above 50 volts DC and the odds are you die.

So as a rule you should stay below 50 volts DC.

This means you MUST use at least 10 AWG wire for everything.

I use 50 volts, 10 AWG wire and 50 amps and so about 2500 watts or about three horsepower and have had no problems.

And if you are pushing more than three horsepower you need to get serious about upgradiing everything to the moped level to handle all the extra stress the bike must deal with.

Once you get to 10 kW it's a motorcycle and you need to redo it all over again.

 

[DogDipstick]

Below 50 volts DC and if you get shocked you most likely live.

Yeah I think on boats the most you can have is 60v system to be ABYC certified. All the OEM bikes ( bosche, haibike, ect) are like 36v. Alot of scissor lifts are 24v. Bafang does 60v absolute max on the BBSxx drives. Alot other mid drive is 48v I think .

 

[calab]

Well 50v is meaningless, its the amps that you feel.
Wet hands or a cut that come in contact with the conducting surface, I felt a little bit of a tingle with eabs when I was touching wires together to activate braking in slight rain and dry out with a bit of sweat, so its not the voltage its the amps.

A 9V battery on the tongue you can feel it, same theory as a cut as it bypasses the insulating skin of your body.

 

[dogman dan]

Lawn mowers and stuff have gone 48v, but I don't expect to see a lot more than that for those reasons. You get a lot of power in a 48v golf cart though, so it's not really requiring 100v to go fast. Cars of course, are much higher voltage, but you don't carry its battery around, or have wiring you can get at.


Bear in mind, I killed that luna battery deliberately. They sent it to me free. I was destruction testing it. I hammered it hard as I could with a big motor and lots of amps for its size.

It had to be a great battery to take me more than a month or two to do it. It put out the juice with very little sag while it lasted. Very good cells inside, but one alas, was not as good as the others.

I did really like the waterproof, fully potted construction of it. I got the clear box one, which showed how much better the cell connections were, compared to the shoddy spot welds of the duct tape piece of crap that burned my house.
Right now, I'm not riding any of my e bikes. I'm kind of waiting for that wolf battery to come back into stock. And still looking at other options just as good.

And, hoping even better cells come down the line soon. And much much better bms's. After the fire I was ready to give up electric entirely for good, till things got improved some more. The luna battery convinced me progress was being made.

One reason I brought up the point that bike shops routinely sell e bikes now, is that trek and specialized and such would not stand for crap batteries spot welded together with shoddy connections, or junk parts in the bms. The improvements they demand get into kit stuff later. They simply have to do better than hoverboard tech.

 

[spinningmagnets]

The BBSHD came out in 2015 at the Interbike convention in Las Vegas (*RIP).

I happened to be there. I rode it, and I was impressed. At the time I had developed brackets to mount a 1500W MAC geared hubmotor as a mid drive, and I immediately abandoned that project.

At the time, it was marketed as the off-road 1500W mid drive kit. I ride mine on the street with no shame at all.

Five years ago is 2017, but it took until 2017 for global demand to get a fairly good taste of the BBSHD, and they liked it. A LOT.

14S battery packs existed at the time (* labeled 50V / 52V), but they were not common. 13S 48V packs were the "go to" option for the serious ebiker.

In 2018, interbike in Reno still showed some "ebike hate" from the off road pedal community, but Bosch mid drives took the lions share of factory ebike systems, and resistance has steadily faded.

In 2015, neptronix started a thread on the leafbike 1500W hubmotor, which claimed to have thinner laminations.. it did, and the results were much better than expected.

 

[neptronix]

Honestly, the last 5 years have been the least exciting for me.

Haven't really seen a new battery or motor technology that makes me want to jump up and build a bike with part X, outside the CYC X1 pro mid drive.
Battery technology has barely advanced during that time, aside from say, Tesla cells getting incrementally better. And i find current battery technology too limiting.

But on my radar is:

+ The 'lightest bike' mid drive, which is the first light mid drive i've seen that preserves the pedal spacing. Makes mid-drives possible for me, but under production delays due to the supply chain stuff.

+ I get the idea that ebikes.ca is headed towards creating a hub motor that really bests the leafmotor products in efficiency and especially in power to weight ratio. I think there is hope that the hub motor will finally go through another round of evolution.

+ In a year or two, we can expect to get some cells into our hands that are pulls from Teslas and some Japanese/Korean EVs that are newer high density cell types such as solid state. In a few more years, those cells should be available direct to sale to the DIYer. With these high density cells having capacities in the 350-500whr/kg range, this is going to change the nature of ebike design. I believe this may produce a second wave of interest in ebikes, particularly as a replacement for car transport or to simply make them better off road exploration machines.

Hopeful for the future, but the current?...meh!

 

[docw009]

I converted my first ebike in 2015. $210 geared motor kit in rear and $280 36V10ah battery. Ten more conversions since then, and t still haven't gone much further than a 500W bike that tops out at 20 mph. Five years ago, 1000W hub motor kits were as low as $140, but I had no interest.

I would say motors cost more today. Ebikeling, who sold me my first motor, now wants $360 for a geared 500W kit. Voilamarts are around $250. The BBS02 is about $50-100 more than what I paid. Battery prices have dropped. I was paying $500 for a Luna pack in 2016, and I can get better quality construction, but with chinese cells, for half that price. And I can still get Samsung cell in a bigger battery for $500.

DIY batteries has gotten more feasible. I bought a $25 cardboard welder that runs off 12V, and runs pretty well. Used it to replace bad cell groups in two batteries I would have otherwise set aside. I'll be able to re-cell that $280 pack that I bought in 2015 this Spring. I built a 10Ah and a 15AH battery using 21700 cells.

The biggest change though is that for the kind of stuff i build and like to ride, I can just about buy it cheaper as ready made ebike at Wakmart.com. They've got those Hyper ebikes for under $500, etc.

 

[Chalo]

The biggest change though is that for the kind of stuff i build and like to ride, I can just about buy it cheaper as ready made ebike at Wakmart.com. They've got those Hyper ebikes for under $500, etc.

Hyper bikes are garbage that's worth negative money even when brand new. I shudder to think of a Hyper e-bike.

 

[2old]

e-bikes in the low price range aren't for me, but it's interesting that the ratings for them on Amazon are consistently high (4+) exhibiting their appeal to their audience. Also, many years ago when my children were young, BSO's were the only bikes available (that I could find since I couldn't afford custom and they were still too young for BMX). Those bikes worked fine as long as they were maintained and in all the years none failed on our many outings. Some even lasted through all four kids and were then donated still in good condition.

 

[Chalo]

Well, I know most BSOs as a source of stripped threads, stuck parts, collapsed bearing cups, pre-bent axles, disappearing brake pads, and misaligned everything. Every so often one surprises me by being reasonably okay. The ones that aren't, predominate.

E-BSOs add new delights like hub motors without accessible disconnect plugs, or controllers trapped in plastic boxes with no airflow.

 

[neptronix]

Hyper bikes are garbage that's worth negative money even when brand new. I shudder to think of a Hyper e-bike.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

[larsb]

I think the available high power mid drives and controllers are a nice evolution. Qs138 70h and the likes. Extremely cheap for a 20kW input motor. Then if they belong in the ebike category.. I think i need to cross check that with Chalo :wink:

 

[neptronix]

Then if they belong in the ebike category.. I think i need to cross check that with Chalo :wink:

:lol:

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

e-bikes in the low price range aren't for me, but it's interesting that the ratings for them on Amazon are consistently high (4+) exhibiting their appeal to their audience. Also, many years ago when my children were young, BSO's were the only bikes available (that I could find since I couldn't afford custom and they were still too young for BMX). Those bikes worked fine as long as they were maintained and in all the years none failed on our many outings. Some even lasted through all four kids and were then donated still in good condition.

That doesn't surprise me as a lot of LBS bikes have been coming with BSO parts on the lower end to sometimes even mid range bikes for years. Fact is the lower end component manufacturers have gotten better. The guys in the motorized bike forums also like the basic BSO and will successfully push their BSOs to high speed via gasoline motors over and over again for years and years in a row.