BMSBattery Q11

[markz]

I need to know what the difference is between a sin wave controller and a square wave controller that are both an option for the Q11 kits.

S12P 750Watts Torque Simulation Square Wave Controller for 36Volts and 48Volts battery pack E-Bike System - $29

S12S 500Watts Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller for 36Volts and 48Volts battery pack E-Bike System - $34

This note is on both of them,
"This kind of controllers are not as same as the other commom controllers. It is the torque simulation controller. So when you change the level of the PAS by LCD or LED panel, the speed will not change. They are in same speed. But the torque is different. In other word, the output of controller power is different."

Someone mentioned on this forum that they liked the 500W KU93 Controller because of its lower power but the KU151 is rated for 1KW. I just assume I stay away from those Torque Simulation bcuz it mentioned PAS.

Looks like I will have the wheel/motor $114, controller $31 and S/H~$100. Should I buy the batteries and charger from bms or hk?

 

[mlt34]

I use the KU93 controller just because I've used them forever and I love them, but the S12S controller works really well and is recommended by many. Sine wave controllers run the motor quieter and slightly more efficiently.

I'd buy your battery from BMS, but that's just me. HK means you're doing lipo, which is ok, but has a lot of safety risks that you need to REALLY understand to do this responsibly. It's not for beginners who don't want to take the time to learn to do it right. That's how houses burn down.

I've had a bunch of batteries from BMS and they've all been great. You saw my thread about my 48V10AH li-ion that is still putting out over its rated AH after 18 months.

The Q11 kit comes with the KU151 but IMO that controller is more than necessary, unless you've got some big hills to deal with. I like the more reasonable KU93 and I even CA limit the current to 15A now for the efficiency gains and boost to my range. The difference in price between the controllers is almost nothing though, so don't let that be a factor.

You don't necessarily have to buy the kit from them either. You can buy the wheel by itself, a KU93 controller, a throttle and a battery. It will actually be cheaper that way. Depending where you are shipping to, the whole thing could be delivered for under 550 bucks. That's a 27 mph, 48V10ah lithium 1000 watt ebike for $550. Damn this is a great world! :lol:

 

[markz]

HobbyKing battery and the BMS website are the same prices, havent looked at shipping though.

 

[mlt34]

If they are the same prices then I'd go BMS. NCM batteries will last at least twice as long as lipo, so already the value is twice as much. Then add in the extra equipment you'll need for the lipo (balance charger, balance boards, low voltage alarm or meter, etc) and you're already at like three times the price over the equivalent lifetime of the batteries.

RC lipo has it's place, but usually for high power builds or builds that are really low on space and need the high energy density of lipo. For everyday ebikes, standard NCM or LiFePO4 is better. But that's just my opinion.

 

[TheBeastie]

I need to know what the difference is between a sin wave controller and a square wave controller that are both an option for the Q11 kits.

S12P 750Watts Torque Simulation Square Wave Controller for 36Volts and 48Volts battery pack E-Bike System - $29

S12S 500Watts Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller for 36Volts and 48Volts battery pack E-Bike System - $34

This note is on both of them,
"This kind of controllers are not as same as the other commom controllers. It is the torque simulation controller. So when you change the level of the PAS by LCD or LED panel, the speed will not change. They are in same speed. But the torque is different. In other word, the output of controller power is different."

Someone mentioned on this forum that they liked the 500W KU93 Controller because of its lower power but the KU151 is rated for 1KW. I just assume I stay away from those Torque Simulation bcuz it mentioned PAS.

Looks like I will have the wheel/motor $114, controller $31 and S/H~$100. Should I buy the batteries and charger from bms or hk?

If I was a noob and in the market for a direct drive motor kit I would seriously consider ebikes.ca before going the BMSbattery route.

Every kit I have got from BMSbattery I have needed to replace all the spokes on the wheel. Being in AU its somewhat more practical for me to order from asia and I am also a fan of geared drive motors.

Anyway If I was going to get the Q11 motor I would get the S12SH 800W 35A controller, any of the torque simulation controllers are better then the KU ones because you got more flexibility for example if you change your battery from 36v to 48v on a KU controller and want the LVC to kick in when needed at best you have to unplug a wire on the controller, at worst you have to open up the controller and replace a resistor (this only if you end up getting an older KU model, but never assume anything)

With any of the Torque simulation controllers you can just plug in any battery between 24v and 48v and it will automagically adjust for it or you just change the settings via the LCD display panel. Also when you use a throttle to get around the LCD based pedal assist control levels aren't affected if you use merely PAS level 1 and go full down via throttle the bike/motor will go as hard and as fast as it can.
I would recommend you still use PAS if range is important to you, its hard to describe just how much further you can go when your low on battery and you don't touch the throttle and just use PAS at level 1-3 to get to your destination.

If your going to get a CA then your whole controller options don't matter so much but I am betting your not because if you already were deciding to get a CA you wouldn't be asking these questions.

For a battery I would recommend a battery from BMS, the price for HK is cheap but you have to buy good charger setup to get it to all work reliably which is a PSU and charger, when you get something from BMS you get what you need altogether.

Hope this helps.

 

[mlt34]

I need to know what the difference is between a sin wave controller and a square wave controller that are both an option for the Q11 kits.

S12P 750Watts Torque Simulation Square Wave Controller for 36Volts and 48Volts battery pack E-Bike System - $29

S12S 500Watts Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller for 36Volts and 48Volts battery pack E-Bike System - $34

This note is on both of them,
"This kind of controllers are not as same as the other commom controllers. It is the torque simulation controller. So when you change the level of the PAS by LCD or LED panel, the speed will not change. They are in same speed. But the torque is different. In other word, the output of controller power is different."

Someone mentioned on this forum that they liked the 500W KU93 Controller because of its lower power but the KU151 is rated for 1KW. I just assume I stay away from those Torque Simulation bcuz it mentioned PAS.

Looks like I will have the wheel/motor $114, controller $31 and S/H~$100. Should I buy the batteries and charger from bms or hk?

If I was a noob and in the market for a direct drive motor kit I would seriously consider ebikes.ca before going the BMSbattery route.

Every kit I have got from BMSbattery I have needed to replace all the spokes on the wheel. Being in AU its somewhat more practical for me to order from asia and I am also a fan of geared drive motors.

Anyway If I was going to get the Q11 motor I would get the S12SH 800W 35A controller, any of the torque simulation controllers are better then the KU ones because you got more flexibility for example if you change your battery from 36v to 48v on a KU controller and want the LVC to kick in when needed at best you have to unplug a wire on the controller, at worst you have to open up the controller and replace a resistor (this only if you end up getting an older KU model, but never assume anything)

With any of the Torque simulation controllers you can just plug in any battery between 24v and 48v and it will automagically adjust for it or you just change the settings via the LCD display panel. Also when you use a throttle to get around the LCD based pedal assist control levels aren't affected if you use merely PAS level 1 and go full down via throttle the bike/motor will go as hard and as fast as it can.
I would recommend you still use PAS if range is important to you, its hard to describe just how much further you can go when your low on battery and you don't touch the throttle and just use PAS at level 1-3 to get to your destination.

If your going to get a CA then your whole controller options don't matter so much but I am betting your not because if you already were deciding to get a CA you wouldn't be asking these questions.

For a battery I would recommend a battery from BMS, the price for HK is cheap but you have to buy good charger setup to get it to all work reliably which is a PSU and charger, when you get something from BMS you get what you need altogether.

Hope this helps.

Agreed. He asked me in PM and I said basically the same as you, except that I'm still partial to the KU controllers. Maybe just old fashioned. :wink:

 

[markz]

Thanks a lot for the info, its been a great help.
I probably wont get the Cycle Analyst at first, might be a year 2 buy. This however is an affordable option, S-LCD3 LCD Meter for S-Series Controlers for $29.
The S12SH is roughly the same price, looks like that's on the list now.
I'm just buying the motor, I will try to build it myself, or get LBS to do it protecting the wires.
Just need torque arms, throttle now.

 

[mlt34]

Lacing a wheel is doable, but it's not simple. It's more of an art than a science. I'd definitely recommend trying it yourself. Worst case scenario, you bring to your LBS afterwards and they fix it. Getting good at lacing also means getting good at truing, which is something you need to learn anyways to keep your motor wheel in tip top shape. There are some good videos on youtube and websites on lacing. That's how I learned my first time. The internet is a magical place :lol:

 

[markz]

Here is the list, am I missing anything?

Q11 48V1Kw Rear Driving Disc-brake Hub Motor -- Available $99.00

S12SH 800W 35A Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller -- Available $38.00

A Pair of EBike Torque ArmSize : M12 -- Available $15.00

S-LCD3 LCD Meter for S-Series Controlers Color : Black -- Available $29.90

Speed Sensor -- Available $1.90

CASSETTE REMOVER TOOL -- Available $2.30

Three Speed Switch Kit3_switch -- Available $1.00

Twist Grip ThrottleThrottle -- Available $2.00

Thumb Level Throttle with Battery Meter and a Switch - Battery Nominal Voltage : 48V FT15XDX+T216.A Available $5.00

Wuxing Twist Grip Throttle with Battery Meter - Battery Nominal Voltage : 48V 52XDX.B+HT256.A Available $5.00

Oh and batteries, is LifePO4 worth the extra price?
High C Rate Li-Ion NiCoMn is a little bit extra as well.

 

[Jonathan in Hiram]

That motor appears to take a freewheel rather than a cassette.

 

[markz]

Damn man, I got like a Alum. '09 Specialized Rockhopper. What do I have to do now? I just threw in the cassette tool cuz its cheap and I wonder if it fits Shimano.

 

[mlt34]

couple important things: your casette on your bike won't fit that motor, so you don't need the cassette tool (unless you just want it)

you need the 14mm torque arms, not the 12mm

You need to add a freewheel too, unless you have a spare. Probably 7spd. Then you'll just adjust your deraileur to only use the 7 top gears.

Good idea on the multiple throttles. Shipping would be crazy if you needed to buy a replacement by itself.

LiFePO4 is almost always worth the price because it will last 2-3 times as long as the li-ion. However, the li-ion should still easily last you two years, probably even three. Also, LiFePO4 is big and heavy, so consider if you have the room. Li-ion fits a lot easier. If you can get the high-c rate li-ion that will just stay a bit healthier for you. I have the normal li-ion though and it works great.

 

[mlt34]

throw in a spoke wrench too. it's only a dollar and you'll need it for lacing your wheel or just doing a truing every few hundred miles.

 

[markz]

Sunrace 8 spd, or Shimano 7 spd?

12G or 13G spokes? Oh and what spoke length?

How long will it take to ship? Hopefully not a month,a week or 2 is fine.

 

[mlt34]

The sun race is a cassette right? That won't work. You need a freewheel, not a cassette, so get the 7 speed. what size do you have on your bike right now, 8spd? If so, you can try to find an 8speed freewheel locally at a bike shop, or on Amazon or something. found one here
The important thing is that it is a 'freewheel' and not a 'cassette'.

12g or 13g will work. 12g are kind of huge and you probably don't need them that big. 13g should be fine. And the length totally depends on the rim. Not all 26" rims have the same ERD effective rim diameter, which is the diameter from the innermost part of the rim, where the spoke stops. You can use the spoke calculator at ebikes.ca to determine the spoke length once you know the ERD of the rim you want to use. If you order the rim from BMSbattery (I have done that many times. It's a good rim, not a great rim) then they list the ERD there. in the spoke calculator at ebikes.ca, select nine continent as the hub motor. The Q11 is the exact same shell as the nine continent.

Shipping time varies. Usually about 3 weeks but it has taken a month before for me on multiple occasions. It's also taken less than 2 weeks. It really depends on your order. No lacing means faster shipping, but batteries seem to slow shipping a bit. The biggest delay is just how long it takes before they ship. Sometimes its 3 days. sometimes its two weeks.

 

[markz]

Both cassettes are freewheel, I have on it right now all 9 speed, but the bike itself came 8 speed from the bike shop, I have now, 9 speed shifters and 9 speed cassette on it and brand new 9 speed chain. I like more gear choices in the cassette, but motorized all I need is granny gear, with my aftermarket 50T from 48T large ring which messes up my "capacity"

I am a heavy dude, so the bigger the guage the better right, the truer the wheel stays for longer.

 

[mlt34]

Actually, most people leave their bikes in the highest gear, as opposed the granny gear. The ebike will help you get going quickly, so you'll be spending most of your time pedaling in top gear.

Regarding the freewheel, what I mean is a cassette style won't fit your motor, you need a screw on freewheel. See the diagram below. Your hub motor is like the hub on the bottom, meaning you need a threaded on freewheel, not a cassette.

 

[markz]

Is it best to make a couple orders from BMS Battery, like firstly buy the Q11 and the controller, along with a few of the odds-and-ends pieces. Then, either immediately or wait until 1st order comes, order a second shipment from BMSB for the battery and a few other odd-and-ends pieces. Just trying to lower my risk tolerance is all, knowing it varies in delivery time, and wouldnt they ship them seperately anyway (battery package and motor package).

OK so BMSB, NCM batteries lasts 2x as long as higher energy density HK Lipo's for higher powered ebikes, then the heavier, bulkier LifePO4 lasts even longer then NCM?

For the S-series sine wave torque simulation controller, do I need the PAS stuff, if so what is it. This is to increase range when low on battery right?
Are those 2 terms (Sine Wave and Torque Simulation" one in the same, meaning when you talk about sine wave, it is torque simulation, and vice versa?

Are you saying the Cycle Analyst is a worthwhile investment, for future builds/different motors. I might go from my first buy of DD to 2nd buy geared . Its a big investment for sure at ~$150.

 

[mlt34]

Is it best to make a couple orders from BMS Battery, like firstly buy the Q11 and the controller, along with a few of the odds-and-ends pieces. Then, either immediately or wait until 1st order comes, order a second shipment from BMSB for the battery and a few other odd-and-ends pieces. Just trying to lower my risk tolerance is all, knowing it varies in delivery time, and wouldnt they ship them seperately anyway (battery package and motor package).

I'd say it's best to wait and order everything together as one shipment. They charge a lot for shipping, so two orders means twice the expensive shipping.

OK so BMSB, NCM batteries lasts 2x as long as higher energy density HK Lipo's for higher powered ebikes, then the heavier, bulkier LifePO4 lasts even longer then NCM?

Correct. But the NCM batteries that BMSB sells are only good for moderate power. I push them to 2.5ish C but that's more than is recommended. You can get their "high-c rate" NCM batteries which can do higher power and only cost a few bucks more. Worth the investment.

For the S-series sine wave torque simulation controller, do I need the PAS stuff, if so what is it. This is to increase range when low on battery right?
Are those 2 terms (Sine Wave and Torque Simulation" one in the same, meaning when you talk about sine wave, it is torque simulation, and vice versa?

You don't need PAS stuff, but it's an option. PAS means that the motor will spin when you turn the pedals. I personally don't like it because it isn't alway super fluid and it can feel awkward to control the motor with your feet. I like knowing I control mechanical (pedal) power with my feet and electrical (motor) power with my hand. It just sits right in my brain that way. But many people like PAS. One of the biggest advantages is that it forces you to pedal, which means you are getting exercise and aren't just using the ebike like a motorcycle.

The simulation torque sensor means it's doing current throttling, which is a better way to do PAS. It's not perfect though, and it won't compare to using a real torque sensor. But those are expensive. I haven't actually used the torque simulation yet so I can't speak to how it feels. Others have had mixed feelings, but I've heard a lot of positive things too.

The sine wave part is not the same as the torque simulation. Sine wave is how it provides switching and power to the motor, where the sine wave controllers (versus older square wave controllers) do so quieter and slightly more efficiently. The general consensus is that sine wave controllers offer a very nice improvement over square wave controllers.

Are you saying the Cycle Analyst is a worthwhile investment, for future builds/different motors. I might go from my first buy of DD to 2nd buy geared . Its a big investment for sure at ~$150.

It is a big investment, and it isn't a required purchase, but it is a very useful tool for your ebike. I love using CA's, but I don't put them on all my bikes. The nice thing is that you can keep moving it from bike to bike if you upgrade, sell your bike, etc. For most beginners it's good as a battery gauge and a speedometer, but you can use it for so much more. With a CA compatible controller (controller's that come with a CA connector - the S12S does not, though you can add one) you can use the CA's limiting features to control how much power you want to have available, limit speed, watch your efficiency change in different conditions, see your instantaneous power, set multiple profiles for power and limits (CAv3 only) and a million other things. You can always upgrade to a CA at a later date though, even if you don't start with one from the beginning. You can also add a CA connector to a non CA enabled controller, like the S12S.