Building my own dream elektrical bike!

[TimV]

Hi everybody.

First of all, thanks to be interested in this project and feel free to comment or give your own idea's of problems that need to be solved.

You will find my introducion of who i aim here.

And in this thread all the building stuff will be lined out perfectly.

So far, for the first post of my dream bike.

 

[TimV]

I scored a Kalkhoff Endeavour BS10 bike from 2013.

The prices, was awesome cheap, but you already understood, there is something wrong with it.

Absolutly, the battery was dead, and the charger was kooked, so i got an elektrice bike, but no elektricity .

I borrowed a battery for the bike and test this thing.
It only has 486km on it. So supernew.
Perfect for a sweet dream bike build, beceause if we dream about something it is alweys about new stuf, and not about an old wrecked bike repainted :lol:

Here is a pic of the overal look of the bike (yes, i washed it, so it looks newer then new)

The handle bar lay-out:

The bags on the rear wheel:

And the pedelec motor:

This thing is sweet.
It gives me on 1 battery of 36V 11Ah (= 400Wh) a nice ride.
It supports me in 4 different niveau's.
This thing is controlled by a torque sensor on the pedals, the more power you pedal, the more the motor will give you a bonus.

On eco, 30% bonus, with a reach of 80 to 120km, driving with a speed between 25 and 30km/h.
On tour, 100% bonus, with a reach of 60 to 90km, driving with a speed between 28 and 35km/h.
On sport, 180% bonus, with a reach of 40 to 60km, driving with a speed between 33 and 40km/h.
On turbo, 250% bonus, with a reach of 25 to 40 km, driving with a speed between 35 and 43-44km/h.

This rides sweet, it is close to my dream bike.

I like driving with a bycicle, but i need to drive 30km to my work and after work, it is 30km back.
Do you see the problem?
I don't like to drive 90 minutes to my work to drive 60km with 1 battery, so i have support to my work and back to home.

1 originial battery kost around 650 euro's. A lott of money.

The other part of my dream bike, is that it works like an elektric moto.
So i need an hub motor in my wheel.

1 part of the 30km ride is an 15km ride among a canal. The road there is perfectly smooth and straight. I drive out of the busy times, so speeding this thing up is the way to go.

1step of the long buildingway i need to go, is to hack the bosch software, so i can remove the 45km/h speed limit witch allow me only to drive 43-44km/h. The limit of the motor is then at 3/4th (with no crosswind ahead, and 41-42 with crosswind, it gives full power), so i should go 5km/h faster, reaching almost a top of 50km/h. This is great, on own power driving 50km/h (with 250% bonus, or max power of the bosch motor).

This hacking part is running, but after 2 days, no succes yet.

Another part is that i want a hub wheel motor for the electric moto part.
I was thinking of 2 hub wheel motors.

1 small 36V 350W front hub wheel motor, for driving at low-mid speeds.

1 big 36V rear hub motor (probably 750-800W), for driving at mid- high speeds.

I was thinking of placing 2 36V 20h (720Wh each) lifepo packs. 1 in each bag at the rear wheel.

Installing 1 thump trothle controller and a 3 way switch, off, front motor and rear motor.

Front motor will be running on the 36V battery pack.

When i switch to the rear motor i will give that thing 72 volt (the 36V in serie).
Therefore i need to hod rod the rear motor and a big controller.

Hopefully the hotrodded motor at 72V (for more rpm, so higher top speeds) giving it a total of 1200W.
Originally drawing 23A at 36V, and i will give it 18A at 72V.

I hope this set up will give me a top speed of about 70km/h.
( I don't need to go much faster then this, otherwise i might be caught by a speedcamera, and then i aim in big trouble).
Because this thing is designd and registered as a slow motorcycle with licenseplate and may not drive fasther then 50km/h.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum. That looks like a good bike, and I hope the motor controller hacking goes well for you.

Running 2 motors is only usefull for heat mitigation. If 1 motor can't handle the heat buildup, then 2 motors gives you more surface area to disapate the excess heat. You aren't likely to have that problem on a reasonably flat ride, so a second motor become extra weight, extra points of potential failure, extra expense, and added efficancy loss.

In addition, that bike and those tires won't survive very long at 70KPH. For those speeds, you need to look at a DH style bike running motorcycle tires. 45KPH for extended periods of time should be fine. A 720 watt battery should have enough power to get you 30km at 45kph with some reserve.

A Nine Continents 10X6, Also known as the 2806 motor, or any of it's clones should be able to do 45kph. Its really a 500watt motor, although many of the clones seem to be listed as anything from 500w to 1000w. Those motors will do it alone, without the need of a second motor.

 

[TimV]

I already figuerd out that 3 motors are stupid.

But that was the basic idea.
Now it needs to be finetuned.

This frame is realy strong.
So what i need to change according to what you tell me is, a front 28 inch motorcicle tire.
And a rear motorcicle tire with a hub motor for riding like a motorcicle.

I realy want to keep the pedal motor for pedaling in city's and a hub motor for riding like a motorcicle.
So it's the 350W mid motor for byciling or the hub rear wheel motor for speeding.

I already got 2 original battery's borrowing and almost ready to buy these for my 60km a day.
At the moment i drive 1hour over the 30km.

To reduce that time i need to go faster on the long roads, like the one near the canal.

I gone take a look at the bike you mentioned, i realy like the bosch pedal motor, but if the bike don't handle more speed, then i need to change the bike.

Like going to a mounten bike look a like, front and rear supsension and a big rear wheel motor...

 

[Dauntless]

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=50447

 

[dogman dan]

Good bike, but rather than modifying it a lot, just get another bike to put hubmotors on. Join the 6 e bikes club eventually. Rig your bikes so your batteries can run any of your bikes. The darn battery is what breaks your budget.

Join the 40 mph club easy. (65kph). Any cheap hubmotor like a 9c, golden motor, conhis, etc. 72v 40 amps controller, and 72v RC lipo (lico) battery. Whee!!!

Don't forget some body armor.

 

[TimV]

ok, and what good motor and controller are good for 74V lipo batterie (84V max batterie).
What i also want is a regenerative brake or a brake on the motor, so the diskbrakes arent stressed so much.

 

[dogman dan]

Many of us in the USA like Lyens for powerful programmable controllers, but many other options exist, including many ebay vendors that have cheap prices.

Lyens can be found in the for sale new section.

 

[TimV]

I live in Belgium. So products of USA are no good for me. When i buy a controller of ( lets say ) 100 euros. And the border customs take it. And holt it for 3 months. And then i get it with an aditional cost and fees of 150 euro.

It is cheaper to buy every year another cheap controller from china, azia, ... But those controllers need to last at leats 2-3 years or i want something else...

 

[dogman dan]

A china controller should last, just look for one that meets your needs on ebay.

 

[TimV]

Is this a good controller?

For this motor?

And gonne use a 74V 20s lipo batterie of aproximated 25Ah.
(for a 60km long ride a work day)

 

[izeman]

I live in Belgium. So products of USA are no good for me.

drop bazaki a pm. he's a bike dealer from the netherlands, and makes very reasonable prices for other es-members.
he should be able to supply all you need.

 

[TimV]

I looked between the members, but i didn't found him...

 

[dogman dan]

I'm sure you can get a better price on a controller from a china dealer, than from a person in Israel that bought one from china.

But a local like Bazaki sounds like a good thing too.

The motor will work, but at 72v and 40 amps, don't try to ride too far. Melting motors is fun only if you have more than one. You should be able to zoom for 8-10 miles ok. That dealers price is a bit high for a bare motor perhaps, but it does include shipping.

Have you looked at EM3ev? He's a guy we trust in china.

 

[TimV]

What motor and controller is good relyable on 72V?

I aim elektrician and can change the fase and hall wires to a thicker wire.
And can "hotrod" the hubmotor, like drilling coolingholes in it.
Maybe if there is place there will be added metal strips to the inside of the moving part, so it will be like a "coolingfan"

I aim aiming for the following specifications:

-Only driving on flat roads, no hills.
-20s lipo batterie (84V max, 60V min, rated at 74V)
-about 550 rpm under load (top speed of the bike!)
-regen brake (or if not possible, brake should be fine, got diskbrakes, but if i need to use it less, it is way better)
-i think that 2000-2500W will be enough to get me there.
- a 250W 25km/h limiter and only working with pedaling, to be roadlegal
- speeding will be controlled by a throthle.

Thanks for the help!

 

[izeman]

I looked between the members, but i didn't found him...

Bazaki is correct. just double checked for typos. go to -> members -> find a member -> bazaki, and you're there.
or try his shop: http://www.elektrischeMTB.nl/

 

[izeman]

What motor and controller is good relyable on 72V?

try http://ebikes.ca/simulator/ and play with different motors and battery configs to find the one that suits your needs best. then come back and restart the discussion. the data you gave is a good start. try something like a 9c or crystalyte if you want regen, and a cycle analyst v3 for battery information, speedo, and speed limiter (and much more).

 

[crossbreak]

I live in Belgium.

You sit near the source of your dreams: Get a Crystalite HS-4065 motor http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16566&cat=250&page=1 and a 24Fet Greentime controller http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/24FET-IRFB4110-s-2500W-48-96V-80Amax-BLDC-motor-controller-EV-brushless-speed-controller/313864_522263950.html with smaller hosuing from me http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=40900&start=625#p754296 . If you order from Greentime, read the thread before you do!

Or a Magic Pie motor http://www.devi-motion.com/webshop/bldc-hub-motor/p-1/D1000202--magic-pie-kit-hub-front.html and solder your own Hall and phase leads, use it with your own controller http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50194


For the front motor: I think the Cute Q75 maybe a good choice, it's only 1.2kg http://www.bmsbattery.com/564-q75-front-driving-hub-motor-with-s06p-controller.html . A front motor should be very lightweight, sadly it has no 6-hole disc interface. A Goldemotor MBG frontmotor is good for 500Watts, but it's 3kg, it comes with disc interface http://www.devi-motion.com/webshop/bldc-hub-motor/p-1/D1000094--mbg36f--24v-250w--mini-front-motor.html. Just run both motors on 12s lipo with a SmartBMS http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48461#p713571, here: http://www.bmsbattery.com/smart/330-lifepo4lithium-ion-smart-bms-for-513-cells-in-series.html and use an Arduino Nano µC for throttle adjustment on both motors http://www.pedelecforum.de/wiki/doku.php?id=elektrotechnik:forumscontroller, that's all you want I guess!


BUT: If I was you I would get another bike for your hubmotor plans. Just hotrod your Bosch motor to 800W and get a large 10s Lipo battery

 

[TimV]

Thank you very much with your help, but the idea of 2 motors is trown awey, and i will only use 1 motor in the rear anny more.

1 motor that will bring me up to a speed of 65+km/h.

The Crystalite HS-4065 motor is verry expensive!

The controller looks super great!
If i buy it from you, how much will it cost and from where is it shipped?
(pm me the details, or post a link to the threat, thanks)
Can i programme some part of it myself?
Like the voltage cut off, the power at start driving (take off)
Is it possible to have 2 driving modes (because it says 3 speed)
Like speed 1: power limit to 250W and speedlimit to 25km/h with a pedal sensor, so no pedaling, no support
speed 2: no power limit but only support when pedaling
speed 3: no power limit, and throttle infeed?


For the motor, is there no other solution?
A little bit cheaper?

Because the batterie kost a lot of monney and i need to have a range of 60km even when there is a lot of crosswind!

 

[crossbreak]

as said, the MagicPie2 is cheap annd powerfull, but you have to solder your own phase and Hall wires. The greentimecontrollers can not be programmed by yourself, that's why they are cheap. I dont sell them, I only sell housings. But we can order togehter and save some shipping and custom costs. If you want 25km/h throttle and so on you need a Cycle Analyst or Speedict or an Arduino Board.

 

[Cephalotus]

1 motor that will bring me up to a speed of 65+km/h.

If you want to sit upright you need at least 2000W mechanical power at the wheel to achieve that (around 2500W electric power).

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

If you want to survive in the long end you need a different frame. Also the nice Bosch 45 drive unit is of no use in such a 2500W "bike"... Your own pedal power is irrelevant, too...

Living in Belgium I assume that your law is similar to ours in Germany. If you hurt someone with that vehicle you will get HUGE problems. I also doubt that your police is stupid. They will stop anyone riding 65km/h on the flat on a "bike".

I would recommend an electric motorcycle instead, they are designed for that speed and you have insurance. And after your first interaction with the police its the cheaper option, too.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

crossbreak mentioned soldering hall and phase wires in the MP motor, it comes now with the option for external controller.

How about you sell me your kalkhoff and use that money for to build the bike you want ? putting hubs on that Kalkhoff is a complete waste of a already great drive system. I wan't the Bosch system even more so since I was diagnosed with runners knee and the Bosch will help me greatly on the road to recovery, I hope anyway I can recover.

How about 2 15ah 36V ping batteries in each pannier ? and just use the existing bosch motor ? the Bosch adds unnecessary weight if it isn't what you need.

Seriously I'm willing to buy that bike if it's not what you need !

 

[izeman]

... Living in Belgium I assume that your law is similar to ours in Germany. If you hurt someone with that vehicle you will get HUGE problems. I also doubt that your police is stupid. They will stop anyone riding 65km/h on the flat on a "bike"...

PLEASE don't start those legal discussions on ES. there's more than enough on ANY german forum i know. people who want to go 65km/h don't want to go 25km/h. that's it.

 

[TimV]

Where i plan to ride faster then 40km/h (good driving speed of the bosch bike, you need to pedal hard, but not like you are tired in 5 minutes) there is no police, and if there is police, i see them at least 2 km before i reach them. So, when i get to them, i drive not that fast any more

And for the legal part of the story (i gonne use a quote here )

If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun.
Katharine Hepburn

I drive every day to work, that is 32km to work and 32km back to home.
That's like 1h and 5 minutes of driving, with this bike.

If i drive, on 2 roads of the track ( road 1 is 8km and road 2 is 6km), with the fast hub motor, i can save some time, and make more fun of it!
Then i will be home in less then an houre!!!

Hmm, 2000W is likely, a bit to low, for what i want, so lets mulitply it by 2, and go for 4000W

 

[crossbreak]

PLEASE don't start those legal discussions on ES. there's more than enough on ANY german forum i know. people who want to go 65km/h don't want to go 25km/h. that's it.

I can only sign that! Too many threads completely WASTE because of these legal issue crying post :x :x :? :x

crossbreak mentioned soldering hall and phase wires in the MP motor, it comes now with the option for external controller.

It is really simple once the motor is opened. You just need a screw driver and a lock-washer-removal-caliper. You dont need no WYE->Delta termination mod if you use 20s Lipo or 18s on 28"; it will bring you to 70km/h. Just solder the three phase wires and connect a sensorless 15Fet Greentime Controller and 20s Lipo pack