Calif - Buy a $42k Fiat 500e for $20k or lease for $200?

MitchJi

10 MW
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
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3,246
Location
Marin County California
Hi,

MSRP is $32k but at that price Fiat claims to be losing $10k per car. U.S. and state rebates total $10k plus a Fiat $2k rebate is tempting, given the price vs the gas savings. Really like that the battery pack is heated and liquid-cooled. If we drove more I'd probably do it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323744604578471110585778862.html
Fiat 500e Review: The Bosses Don't Love It, but You Will
The company's losses on the electric car notwithstanding, it's a worthwhile car in many ways

RECENTLY, CAPITALISTS were scandalized when Fiat and Chrysler Group Chairman Sergio Marchionne revealed that his company loses $10,000 apiece on the Fiat 500e, an electric retrofit of the wee-posh 500 built solely to satisfy California's zero-emission vehicle mandate and sold, for now, only in the Golden State. This sickening perversion of market forces—whereby a tiny fraction of a company's profits are used to mitigate harm caused by its products—was labeled "masochism" by Mr. Marchionne.

Yeah, well, tough. It's the cost of doing business in the biggest vehicle market in the U.S., and a plain-fact acknowledgment that the automobile has public costs—impacts on air quality, climate and health, infrastructure, injury and death. Lest we forget. You can take issue with California's zero-emission vehicle methodology, and you can reach different conclusions with regard to electric vehicles' value to consumers; but it's inarguable that car companies have an obligation to clean up the mess they make.

The airline industry has spent untold millions on quieter airplanes and noise mitigation around airports. Telecoms lose money on the copper-wire landlines maintained to comply with universal-service requirements. If corporations want to dance in the American discothèque, there's a cover charge called the public good.

Mr. Marchionne's remarks at last month's Society of Automotive Engineers Congress in Detroit constitute the most exquisite amnesia. Remember in the run-up to reorganization and Fiat's takeover, when Chrysler generally and Mr. Marchionne singly promised that the merged companies would be as green as chlorophyll? The boss's very public pushback on the 500e builds a floor of suspicion under all the brand's past and future green messaging. Fiat: We don't like it. We don't mean it....
Fiat's brass has talked down the electric 500, but why knock such a great ride?
And of all cars to throw under the bus! The Fiat 500e is just awesome, a nutty electric elf of a car. All dressed up in Playskool aero pieces and available in Life Savers colors, the 500e feels like the big-kid toy the Fiat 500 always wanted to be, with an otherworldly electric hum to go with its whimsical aesthetics. Actually, because of suspension changes to the 500e (it weighs about a quarter-ton more than a regular 500), the wheel clearances look larger, which make the 15-inch wheels seem even more crazy-diminutive and precious. It's like automotive foot binding.

And unless I'm mistaken, the 500e actually dances around corners better than the gas-powered Pop edition. The heated and liquid-cooled battery pack under the floor takes the car's weight distribution from a nose-heavy 64/36 front/rear to 57/43, and most of the 500e's additional mass is slung low like ballast in a keel. The reoriented mass gives the 500e a very able, level cornering posture, and the e-steering's turn-in has nice bite to it for a city car. The car's brakes—actually the illusion of friction brakes, since almost all the stopping effort is provided by regenerative braking—feel stout and easily modulated.

The breakdown: Up front is an AC permanent-magnet motor good for 111 horsepower (10 more than in a standard 500) and 147 pound-feet of torque, channeled through a single-gear transmission to the front wheels (the transmission push-buttons form a vertical row at center-stack in the dash). The lithium-ion battery pack, with a nominal capacity of 24 kwh, consumes about 4 inches of rear legroom and a couple of cubic feet of rear cargo room, but otherwise you wouldn't know it's there.

To further aid in transparency, the 500e's powertrain engineers have provided a kind of artificial idle speed, which allows the car to creep forward when the driver's foot is off the brake, like a conventional car.

According to the EPA, the 500e has a range of 87 miles, with a city/highway fuel economy of 122/108 mpg-e (a gasoline-gallon equivalent unit of energy). I drove the car for two days in Los Angeles, putting on about 65 miles and returning it with about a 25% state of charge. The 500e is equipped with a handsome 7-inch thin-film transistor (TFT) display as the instrument cluster, providing clear and simple readouts for speed, state-of-charge and range. At a 240-volt charging station, the 500e can be topped up in about four hours.

Throw in some hot-rod leather upholstery and the Fiat's charismatic dash design, as well as the EV-specific version of the TomTom navigation unit that plugs into the dash, and you've got yourself a pair of very kinky boots.

The e retrofit flatters the Fiat 500 so well, it's almost as if the company had it planned—which it didn't and wouldn't have, of course, as per Mr. Marchionne. The 500 feels so fulfilled as an electric car. Consider off-the-line acceleration: The base 500, with the 101-hp four-cylinder engine, is completely gutless at low rpm. It just falls on its nose. The Abarth version, with 160 hp and 170 pound-feet of torque, is better, but it, too, requires far too much caning to get going.

Instant, linear torque is just what the 500 needed, and that's what it gets with the e powertrain. Zero to 60 miles per hour is rated at 9.1 seconds (a tick quicker than in the base petrol-powered 500); but the 500e lives and dies by its bright, punchy acceleration from 0-30 mph. At the stoplight drag strip, the 500e has a Mustang-quality hole shot.

Meanwhile, the sweet, nursing-baby-cute 500e is an absolute Godzilla of a lease deal. Thanks to Fiat taking a 10-grand haircut on each one—thanks, Fiat!—California car buyers can lease one of these puppies for $999 down and $199 a month. You can buy one outright, too: the base MSRP is $32,500, but that's before the $7,500 federal tax credit, an additional $2,500 California tax credit and a $2,000 Fiat credit. I feel nakedly incentivized.
 
Hi,

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/05/06/fiat-500e-best-ev-conversion/
That's tough competition, and it will only get tougher. As Chrysler/Fiat folks point out, there will be some 18 electrically-powered vehicles competing for California's (ridiculously) mandated EV sales before long, so why should buyers choose theirs over all the others? That's where their engineers leave off and their marketers take over.

As of now, they say, three major barriers stand in the way of an EV ownership decision: 1) high price plus complexity of the purchase process, given all the available incentives; 2) concern over limited range, and range anxiety; and 3) today's limited charging infrastructure. So they have cleverly addressed all three, beginning with applying all available incentives up front to get the monthly lease payment down to that $199 level, or in some cases even lower.

To optimize usage of the infrastructure, the 500e comes with standard (Tom Tom) navigation that shows charge stations and a circle around its location to indicate remaining range. And owners get a smartphone app (for iPhones and Androids only) that "enables real-time vehicle status, manages charging, tracks the driver's energy use, locates the vehicle and nearby charging stations, plans and sends routes ... and provides test-message alerts."

Then, when 500e owners/lessees need to drive beyond its battery range and/or carry more people and stuff than its tiny cabin can accommodate, Chrysler/Fiat has that handled with a 500e Pass program. Through an agreement with Enterprise Holdings – which owns Enterprise, Alamo and National rental car brands – they can get up to 12 days worth of credit each year for the first three years toward rentals of "alternate transportation" vehicles.

And every participating California Fiat "Studio" will have a special orange "hotline" phone that will be manned after business hours for 500e customers with questions or problems. What more can they can do to enable and ease 500e ownership? Not much.

Chrysler-Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne admits that his company is doing this only to comply with California's Zero Emissions Vehicle mandate, and will lose big (like $10K big) on every 500e it leases or sells. But he doesn't want to fall even one short of what it takes.
 
Who the heck is going to pick up one of these when the Fit EV, Leaf, and now Chevy Spark EV are going to be better and cheaper cars all around?

How many more times will Chrysler need a bail out?

Bah.
 
neptronix said:
Who the heck is going to pick up one of these when the Fit EV, Leaf, and now Chevy Spark EV are going to be better and cheaper cars all around?

How many more times will Chrysler need a bail out?

Bah.
Hopefully, not as many times as GM as it is a much smaller car company now. And seem to be making some really nice ICE vehicles. Fiat would do much better to get a model S and slap a fiat name on it......LOL
 
Hi,

neptronix said:
Who the heck is going to pick up one of these when the Fit EV, Leaf, and now Chevy Spark EV are going to be better and cheaper cars all around?
The consensus of people who have actually driven them seems to be that the 500e is better and cheaper.

From the link posted above (Note the title):
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/05/06/fiat-500e-best-ev-conversion/
Fiat 500e, the best EV conversion yet?

.....Kudos to the folks who planned our drive route, which ably demonstrated the 500e's smile-inducing character ... and efficiency. Major kudos also to the hard-working Chrysler engineers who made the little Fiat volt-burner – the company's first production EV – this good without outside help. I've driven a lot of electrics, and this very likable 500e is one of the best.

....The conventional gas 500's two endearing qualities, styling cuteness and fun-to-drive character, have been well preserved in this brilliantly-converted version. If anything, the eight aerodynamic drag-reducing changes (front fascia, front air dam, wheels, mirror caps, rear spoiler, rear fascia, underbody panels and side sills) the engineers made to its body enhance its looks while reducing its wind resistance by 13 percent, for an added three miles of range....

And Chrysler marketers have done an equally impressive job of making the well-equipped 500e affordable.
While its sticker is a hefty $32,500 (twice as high as the gas 500's base price), lessees who pony up $999 down can apply the federal $7,500 and California $2,500 tax credits, plus a $2,000 Fiat rebate, all up front to get their lease payment down to $199/month – the same as that base gas 500. With all those incentives, you could also buy a 500e for $20,500.

Spark might be as good or better but that doesn't make the 500e a bad car:
The 500e's 108 MPGe (gas mileage equivalent) highway rating was touted as "unsurpassed by any electric vehicle on the US market" ... before the similar-size Chevy Spark EV's EPA combined efficiency was announced as 119 MPGe (vs. the Fiat's 116 combined). And the Spark EV – also cute, and quicker at under eight seconds 0-60 vs. the 500e's nine-plus seconds – gets 82 miles of EPA range on a smaller, less expensive 21 kWh li-ion battery.

That's tough competition, and it will only get tougher. As Chrysler/Fiat folks point out, there will be some 18 electrically-powered vehicles competing for California's (ridiculously) mandated EV sales before long, so why should buyers choose theirs over all the others?

"Ridiculously mandated EV sales"? Maybe in a few month's a $42k EV for $20k won't be the best deal available :mrgreen:?
 
I know someone with an electric Fiat. Of course It's not one of the ones mentioned in this thread. It has 2 forklift motors and a bunch of lead acid.
 
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