Careers in Physics?

[Ziggurat]

Hi all,

My son is about to enter a second-year university Physics program. We're looking for advice on careers. I know I've seen a couple of physics degrees mentioned on E-S, and maybe some engineers have worked with or know of people with physics backgrounds in their areas of expertise.

He's at a time where he could soon start to specialize in his courses, and it would be great if we had some inside scoop on what the best career options are. He's in a co-op program, so he also will soon start applying for work-term jobs.

What areas of physics do you think are the most interesting and/or have the best job prospects in the coming decade or two?

 

[bigmoose]

To me there was always a significant difference in our training as we approached engineering. The engineers were extremely capable and in my world were "specialists." I am a physicist (experimental nuclear) and was always trained to look at the broad picture and secure a solution from observables. Starting with theory, and first principles then working my way to a solution.

We were often better suited for "unsolvable" problems, failure investigations, and breakthrough technology development. We tend to be good at "systems engineering" as it takes a broader approach to orchestrating "complex systems" successfully. For example I have broad interests, mechanical, electrical, electronic, pneumatics, etc. That made the "system engineering of complex systems" a natural home for me, after I found an employer with this need.

This is in no way to slight engineers. I cherished every one that could master critical mechanical design subtleties, like fracture critical design and test... Nothing could be done without them and I just wasn't interested in spending 15 years in such an area to be an "expert."

If your son ever ends up in a gummit job, the physics degree will be a broad one and allow him going into most mathematical, engineering and science positions. That mobility may be a plus to him. Also a BS in physics qualifies as an AST position in the gummit which opens up the upper grades later on. A 4 year "technology" degree does not, and cannot be sidestepped in the gummit. (I have tried to get extremely productive technology degree people promoted to no avail. In every case we had to get them admitted to a masters program to get that degree, then they were "certified."

For raw out of school recruitment, likely a "pure engineering" degree would be in more demand. Physicists, particularly those with heavy math skills have ended up as "quants" at investment banks also. Whether you are tracking subatomic particles or the price of Apple, if you abstract it, it is in the physicists wheelhouse.

The first job will be the hardest to secure, after that it should be easy based upon demonstrated accomplishments. I studied as a physicist, but made my living as a propulsion systems engineer (jet/ramjet engine stuff), Reliability and System Safety engineering of complex space systems, systems analysis engineering of advanced propulsion systems (that breakthrough stuff mentioned above), space power systems engineering, housing architect, surveyor, electrical design of warehouse power system, stage lighting engineer, stage audio system engineer, etc. As you can see interests and career path is varied... some say "jack of all trades and a master of none!

 

[Ziggurat]

Thanks for the detailed answer, bigmoose.

... Also a BS in physics qualifies as an AST position in the gummit which opens up the upper grades later on.

AST ... had to go look that up. Looks like that's Aerospace technology ... I see in this link from Nasa that there are a number of job categories (AST and others) with Physicist or Physical Scientist listed in them. Lots of interesting stuff there. I don't know how easy it would be for a Canadian to get U.S. govt jobs, though. These days with free trade visas maybe it is a bit easier?

Physicists, particularly those with heavy math skills have ended up as "quants" at investment banks also. Whether you are tracking subatomic particles or the price of Apple, if you abstract it, it is in the physicists wheelhouse.

I have heard of the mathematical-type physics jobs in investment, etc. Seemed to be almost a fad thing a while ago. I'm pretty sure that pure math things, though, would not be his first choice. He's actually quite interested in chemistry as well as physics; I would imagine him doing something more experimental, in some kind of materials sciences, nanotechnology etc. However, I do appreciate what you mean about the systems thinking -- that's a skill that can go anywhere.

 

[bigmoose]

Although I believe Chemistry and Physics are a bit different, I did enjoy Chem, and my freshman dean tried to convert me to Chemistry my second semester. My oldest daughter is an organic Chemist, so they must be genetically linked!

US and Canada have always had a close relationship in aerospace. I often bring up that you all north of the border invented the first delta winged supersonic fighter, the Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow.

Best thing is for your son to start a dialog with the personnel division at the NASA center who's work most interests him now, if he has an interest in NASA. They have many internships, but you must do the bureaucracy stuff and apply perfectly through their websites and such.

JSC/MSFC manned spaceflight
Goddard/JPL(not a center but thinks it is)/APL(not a center but close) planetary and earth observation, robotics
LaRC/GRC/ARC research and technology
KSC not doing very well with no launches
All the others are smaller outposts, might find a niche, but his best bet is starting at one of the above.

If I were going commercial and space, I would go APL (Applied Physics Lab) at Johns Hopkins. They are uber smart people, but down to earth with no 'attitude' like JPL has. JPL are cutthroat business people who slide very, very close to the line. Goddard is a nice center. Bright people, good earth observation missions and sun observations. They are under 'Babs' Mikulski's protection and generally do very well. JSC/MSFC are getting beat up with Shuttle being shutdown. Lots of smoke and noise, little action. As they say in Texas, "All hat and no cattle." KSC is having a fire sale and going out of business.

 

[Ziggurat]

Although I believe Chemistry and Physics are a bit different, I did enjoy Chem, and my freshman dean tried to convert me to Chemistry my second semester. My oldest daughter is an organic Chemist, so they must be genetically linked!

I get the impression that Chem and physics have converged a lot in the recent past. Seems like Chemistry has moved into a lot of quantum physics, femtosecond lasers to follow reactions as they happen, etc.

If I were going commercial and space, I would go APL (Applied Physics Lab) at Johns Hopkins. They are uber smart people, but down to earth with no 'attitude' like JPL has. JPL are cutthroat business people who slide very, very close to the line. Goddard is a nice center. Bright people, good earth observation missions and sun observations. They are under 'Babs' Mikulski's protection and generally do very well. JSC/MSFC are getting beat up with Shuttle being shutdown. Lots of smoke and noise, little action. As they say in Texas, "All hat and no cattle." KSC is having a fire sale and going out of business.

Wow. Thanks again, Dave, that's extremely helpful. Just had a look at APL -- looked it up on google maps, and there were six google reviews, all very positive. Browsed their site and was very impressed with how big the place is and a wide range of amazing things they are doing. I'll have a look at Goddard too.

 

[bigmoose]

Your welcome. The APL campus is nice. Close to the city, but with an open and relaxed layout. Your son, I am sure would enjoy working there. In my near 40 years in the business, I would say APL is the most honest purveyor of the technology I know of. Things done right, legally, honestly and with personal credibility. I have actually seen them give money back for under-running a contract and saying: "It wasn't as difficult as we thought... here are your bucks back..." I have never seen that from anyone else, ever.

 

[Dauntless]

Darn, what a world.

Since not only Canadians are reading this:

In California, you're near always within 10 miles of one or more of the community colleges. The 2 year school was born here, didn't much grow up anywhere else but they have them about from place to place. Having an AA degree is much like having a minor. So at a 4 year school you can get the BA and the Minor, Physics and Engineering both. What the Moose is saying about the government jobs will affect the decision on which comes first, but you can still pick up at least some of the education in dealing with the unsolvable problems and have a BA in Engineering and a Minor in Physics. And then there's always grad school.

And since I've spent nearly a decade trying to get Math and Physics classes at community college, (Budget problems have really scaled back the offerings) I can tell you that the Math is simply required to take Physics and I can get the Math AA (Associate in Arts) degree that much of the rest of the country knows nothing about, then continue to another in Physics. (Looks like I've finally scored Precalculus for the fall.) This is at a predominantly Science/Technology community college which nonetheless doesn't offer Engineering degrees. (??) In my case I have a BA so I complete the 18-21 units of the average major and I have another AA.

For all the reasons discussed, having that AA degree in Math is just going to be a kewl thing to claim even with me staying in television, the desk jockeys love that stuff. As Mr. Moose says, the Insurance people, oh ANY type of "Business" position they want to pick up the math background. The people who estimate all the damage in a disaster, (Actuary) who try to estimate much of anything, they love the Math and Physics background. My understanding is that is supposed to include if you drop out with at least a good chunk of the classes completed. Oh, then I need 3 classes in succession called "Engineering Physics ABC."

So I know someone who didn't get to go straight to college, he's had to work. Took him 8 years to get the AA in Business his Father pushed him towards, then he decided he was wasting his time and should have studied Physics all along. In the same time I've struggled to get "Unit Priority" at a new school, he stayed at his and stole my whole plan to pick up all the community college Math and Physics. So that SOUNDS like this great background, but I guess with the bum economy, etc., it hasn't gotten him into any sort of lab assistantship, etc. He has to work for a living. The BA is years away, so he's sweating finding something new to bridge the time or going on working in a store. I suspect they judge him on turning 30 without a career and taking time for 3 inexpensive AA degrees before getting a BA. He has over 3 years' worth of lower division units for those 3, now he's starting on perhaps 18 classes to be eligible for the BA. (I warned him, but listen me? Perish the thought.) I made the point he needs at least 54 units at the University level anyway, why bother with the AA in Physics?

bigmoose wrote:
Although I believe Chemistry and Physics are a bit different, I did enjoy Chem, and my freshman dean tried to convert me to Chemistry my second semester. My oldest daughter is an organic Chemist, so they must be genetically linked!

The midway point between Physics and Chemistry is Physical Science. My Father started out in Chemistry but wound up taking Physics to a PhD. He always talked about it as a good choice.

He'd be laughing at me doing this as a "Hobby," but lately I'm deciding I have to recognize that even if I have made a living in TV I'm sure not getting ahead. Maybe it will cease to be a hobby. Luckily I like school, if things don't pick up workwise I could wind up in graduate school. A very highly regarded public college just a mile from my community college has a Masters for $12-15k, a few miles farther gets me to a pricey but real live top 10-20 engineering school, but that would be a fight to get into even with my gold key. (They don't open all THAT many doors.) They get plenty of applicants that can come up with as much as $100k for 2 years. They might just say "We don't think you're all THAT serious. . . ."

But I might have to become that serious. If I go to graduate school there are these classes in FEA and CFD. I sort of know someone from a company that's mainly auto racing but branching into aviation. About a year ago he had to beg off of something because of the lack of opportunity for HIRING adequate help at work involving those two topics. I mentioned my Math and Physics efforts and he didn't miss a beat on what I should do next, with a "No promises, but I hope you get my point" look on his face. You don't HAVE moments like that in television. . . .

Now wouldn't it be neat if Mr. Moose or someone with the knowledge explained the "Quants" at the investment banks. A Hollywood film studio is an investment bank, believe it or not that's their main business.

 

[Ziggurat]

Darn, what a world.
And since I've spent nearly a decade trying to get Math and Physics classes at community college...

...So I know someone who didn't get to go straight to college, he's had to work. Took him 8 years to get the AA in Business his Father pushed him towards, then he decided he was wasting his time and should have studied Physics all along. In the same time I've struggled to get "Unit Priority" at a new school, he stayed at his and stole my whole plan to pick up all the community college Math and Physics. So that SOUNDS like this great background, but I guess with the bum economy, etc., it hasn't gotten him into any sort of lab assistantship, etc. He has to work for a living. ...

I feel for you, and your friends, in trying to find a good path. I was lucky to stumble on a great career choice in third-year university via a summer job, and then stumbled into an M.Sc. opening, then into a labor market where demand was growing quicker than supply, so I've had excellent options.

My struggle now is trying to advise my kids and their friends on education paths. As we all know from the Occupy movement message, lots of jobs have shifted to other countries -- leaving a bipolar economy here (largely) with some very high-paying jobs (needing very specific education paths, usually), and a whole lot of low-paying jobs (without a lot of education needs). It seems like the old idea of going for a general education and stumbling into some kind of good job, is much less likely to succeed than it used to be. The good jobs continued to get more and more specialized, and so are the entry requirements into them.

So that's why I'm seeking info on careers for my son -- I think the wise thing now is figuring out what you want to get into, and what the exact education path to get there is, then start down that path. The problem is knowing (1) what the opportunities are, and (2) if that really is a job you will like in the long term. Hence I think co-op education is now extremely important, if the people in the stream can actually get a variety of jobs during their work terms. The alternative to co-op, as you have done, is to get into the job market, then start to find opportunities that interest you, and then get the corresponding education. But that's a long road to get that education while still working.

Now wouldn't it be neat if Mr. Moose or someone with the knowledge explained the "Quants" at the investment banks. A Hollywood film studio is an investment bank, believe it or not that's their main business.

I don't know a lot about the whole quants thing, but my "correlation, not causation" spidey-sense is tingling with that one. I suspect that a lot of the apparent "success" of these quants just had to do with the timing of them appearing in the financial world when financials were experiencing a bubble. Maybe they are not looking so good now after the big crash.

 

[bigmoose]

Remember that money can be made in the market whether it increases for falls. What is needed is volatility. Movement is what is needed. Go long on the rise and short the bear. Traders are comfortable either way.
It doesn't matter the direction.

The early quants were basically curve fitting, then on to pattern recognition in various fractals, then multivariate optimizations and data mining trends. The high frequency traders are thriving off of noise to the small guys.

In the old days think of a cray chugging along real time on the market. Goldman is not stupid!

 

[Ziggurat]

Remember that money can be made in the market whether it increases for falls. What is needed is volatility. Movement is what is needed. Go long on the rise and short the bear. Traders are comfortable either way.
It doesn't matter the direction.

True, the direction doesn't matter if you keep predicting the right one.

Like I said, I don't know much about it. But I do know some principles of human nature, the incredible ability to see causation when none exists, hence the need for rigorous double-blind clinical trials, for example. Then there is the analogy of thousands of people in a coin-toss contest: pair people off, and the winner of each toss moves on. No matter how big the group, there will be a final winner -- someone wins every single coin toss they are in, and is the last one standing. I wonder how much of finance is like that -- the ones who happen to get a few big wins right look like geniuses, but they were just the few out of many that by chance were on the right side of several coin tosses. Those on the wrong side have moved onto other things. But 'past performance does not guarantee future success' -- I'm sure some are doing the right things and are wise and smart and all that, but the only way to tell is keep going into the future. Even then, someone could still win the coin toss contest and look like they were always right.

So, I would not counsel my son to go into something like those quant jobs -- he could do very well, but it could instead be a dead-end path. More importantly, I think job satisfaction could be so much higher in so many other career choices -- e.g. helping advance health care, or the battery technologies we are all eagerly awaiting on this forum, or renewable energy, or any number of things where you can directly see the benefits you have helped to create.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Maybe someone on here knows the test I am talking about? But my sum total of physics were two courses, taken in the wrong order. The portion concerning electromagnetism, optics, etc. was the first course I had taken in physics...ever. At the end of it, there was a bit of time taken out of one of our labs where we took a standardized test. Apparently, the professors and the government use this test to identify talent. This was at Ball State University. Not known for physics. Anyways, the Chair of the department Dr. Ober, and my professor, David Grosnick, arranged a meeting with me and discussed my performance and options. They wanted to know my history, my math skills, asked me why I thought I scored as I had, and if I would be interested in a special physics course load to prepare me for a physics career. They acted like it is your talent which matters most. They also acted like there were options which could be sorted out by my interests, and when I said energy...they said great...but all of the options sounded like government options...except for the academia.

So...if you have talent (which I hardly fit the bill...but whatever), it seems like you will be found, and there will be job options aplenty. You do not need to worry about quants...or whatever...if you are the quant guy...you were already the quant guy. The main thing young people can be given is focus. If they are taught to focus on whatever they do in unusual ways...they will have a leg up. Focus on a career path is somewhat ok, but focus on the materials of interest is what I really mean. Then...you can study all over the board to suit your interests...but you will have the skill most needed...and if you can earn a reputation for your focus you will be secure...as possible...in todays world.

Ironically, they asked me why I felt I had done as well on the test as I had, and I told them that I thought that when I was a child and I bit an electrical cord and was shocked and burnt...that it had forced some unusual wiring in my brain which seemed to make me use the other hemisphere for things it is normally not used for. My professor seemed a bit crestfallen and joked that he had hoped I would say it was his course, but it is what it is. Hard to teach cord biting responsibly...ah...parenting...good stuff.

Good luck! Best wishes. Happy cord biting!

 

[Dauntless]

Well, you give them an obvious made up story like that and of course they're not ready to hire you. Tell the about the aliens beaming the messages to your brain and wearing the pyramid at night so you can sleep, THOSE are the kind of people they pay the big bucks to.

 

[dnmun]

do you think your son is interested in physics or is it your interest in directing him? does he have an interest in how things work or show much aptitude in solving impossible homework problems? how much math has he taken so far? has he studied math up through 'systems of equations' where the work is learning about the various classical equations and how to use transforms and integrate in different dimensions and imaginary numbers? does he like to spend weeks and weeks doing one homework problem like solving the scattering matrix equations or does he spend hours reading up on how light is diffracted by a prism or why xray interference spectra tell you something about the crystal?

how much has he learned. does he know any spectroscopy or has he studied any of the high energy physics of particles?

all the people i know who studied physics had a need to understand things at a level others don't care about. something about having the basis for the laws of nature in your head in order for the world to make sense.

i cannot imagine where the jobs will be in the future. it is impossible for our country to continue to fund these huge military research development projects in the future now that we have bankrupted the country with two useless wars and NASA is being cut down to nothing after decades of boondoggling.

my masters is in nuclear also, along with solid state and a lot of physical chemistry and statistical mechanics. but it turns out the most valuable course was in plasma physics because the etchers in our IC fab were all high power rf plasma etching machines so it got me in the door for a start with the group i ended up working with for 10 years at H-P.

but he must have insight and imagination. the hard problems don't get solved when you pour through page after page of calculations or when you restart it and try to do it over again to find a solution. he has to be able to have the ability to just have things 'dawn' on him. it is a curious breadth of mental function where stuff you cannot see when you put it to paper comes back as an insight and you see through the whole problem.

ask him if he thinks that is how it works for him and then tell him the best way to find out what he wants to do is go to the library and start reading. find a problem he thinks is interesting and worth his time and study it so deeply he can write a thesis on it.

i could never work for the military so i was outa luck when i graduated in physics. but i could see the integrated circuit was gonna be a big deal, this was back in 1975, so i totally switched from doing research in biophysics and bacterial genetics just as cohen wrote his paper on recombinant DNA using bacteriophages over to the study of electron transport in materials and studied enuff solid state to gain entry to the IC manufacturing business. but that all happened in a short time at the end of a broad education in chemistry, math, and physics at the graduate level and several years of EE too.

so in short i would tell him to just plug himself into it as deeply and as fast as he can and not try to figure out what he will do in the end. just learn how to think and then see where the possibilities are when he gets to the end of his education. very little is learned in the undergrad courses so he should start taking E&M and statistical mechanics and solid state. i doubt if they will ever build another nuclear plant in the US and the designs are all now set so i cannot see that has any future.

he really should take advanced courses in math and chemistry too in order to have strong background in chemistry because that may be where the opportunities lie. but the big problems to solve in the future will not be like the stuff we did over the last 40 years. but honestly, i don't see much hope for doing research in the US in the future. i have friends who do good science now and their grants are being cut back in order to make enuff money available to pay for the wars and the hundreds of thousands of wounded veterans.

they do good science, on the causes of macular degeneration in the eye, and it is impossible to get money for it, so i don't know what there is for a future for him since it is obvious the republicans are gonna do everything they can to stop funding science research. i was fortunate because we all got support to beat the russians so there was money to live on while wasting my life away in libraries and the lab. i don't see that in the future here in the US. maybe china, but not the US.

 

[bigmoose]

Man could I relate to dnmun's post. This sentence was especially poignant:

All the people i know who studied physics had a need to understand things at a level others don't care about. something about having the basis for the laws of nature in your head in order for the world to make sense.

That's it! Something I always took for granted. Then this one! Oh man do you have it nailed:

but he must have insight and imagination. the hard problems don't get solved when you pour through page after page of calculations or when you restart it and try to do it over again to find a solution. he has to be able to have the ability to just have things 'dawn' on him. it is a curious breadth of mental function where stuff you cannot see when you put it to paper comes back as an insight and you see through the whole problem.

I would drive superiors crazy over the years. I would just "see" the solution. They thought I was krazy with a capital "K"... typically 3 to 5 years later the project was redirected exactly the way I had envisioned it years before... It was uncanny how the solution was completely "obvious" to me, but obscure to them.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I think there will be all kinds of research possible here in the US for the forseeable future as long as you are willing to do it in a military setting, or suffer through instability of funding. I was not interested in working for the military. I do regret not going down the physics path. I instead saw a bigger future in physiology. But here I am working out essentially physics problems without the benefit of the time and teaching of physics elders.

Thanks for that post dnum. It is about the insight and imagination. I almost feel like that really cannot be taught...or not very easily. It is part of who you are. Lots of people learn materials...some very aptly...but it is kind of rare to have someone connect to materials so deeply that they are willing to follow it down the path the material dictates. It is the material's path and you are in many ways along for the ride...because if you are doing it right you will have many misconceptions shattered... happily.

I normally do not respond to this kind of thing...but Dauntless...my name is Jason Norrick. David Grosnick will remember me, even though I disappointed him by not going physics. His contact information is

Department of Physics and Astronomy
Ball State University
Cooper Physical Science Building, room 101
Muncie, IN 47306

Sort it out in your own time please.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

I didn't read all the responses, but I can give my opinion (which is currently 50% off the normal 2-cents it's worth). Yeah, it's worth a penny (a U.S. penny).

Ok, my suggestion is that he eventually work for a major airline. Now, I don't know about the pay and benefits, etc., but I do know this: I have a LOT of friends and co-workers who either have a spouse, a son, or a parent who works for Delta Airlines, and oh boy do they travel.

When I walk out my front door I can directly see three homes on my street with Delta Airlines families. Two homes are pilots and one is a chief engineer for the flight simulators at Hartsfield International Airport in Atlanta.

Oh, make that four families. I forgot about my daughter's friend who lives around the corner. Her dad is a pilot too. Oh, make it five (there's a guy a couple streets up who also flies for Delta).

Then there are many of my students who have moms and dads who fly or work for Delta.

These families fly all over the world during the school breaks. They go to France, China, Turkey, Spain, Japan, and other spots. One lady three houses up goes all alone for weekend jaunts to Paris, just for some fun and shopping. It's only about six hours, so she can leave Friday morning, enjoy Saturday and Sunday in France, and then come back late Sunday and only suffer for one day before catching up on some sleep.


I rambled a bit (too much caffeine) but my point being that seeing the world is an extremely nice benefit. Oh, and if your son works for Delta then YOU get free travel around the world as well. The line works like this: Employees, their spouses, their children, and the parents of the married couple get free flights anywhere in the world.

How do you like them apples?

 

[Ziggurat]

do you think your son is interested in physics or is it your interest in directing him? does he have an interest in how things work or show much aptitude in solving impossible homework problems? how much math has he taken so far? has he studied math up through 'systems of equations' where the work is learning about the various classical equations and how to use transforms and integrate in different dimensions and imaginary numbers? does he like to spend weeks and weeks doing one homework problem like solving the scattering matrix equations or does he spend hours reading up on how light is diffracted by a prism or why xray interference spectra tell you something about the crystal?

how much has he learned. does he know any spectroscopy or has he studied any of the high energy physics of particles?

all the people i know who studied physics had a need to understand things at a level others don't care about. something about having the basis for the laws of nature in your head in order for the world to make sense.

My son, fortunately for him, is one of those students who in high school had top marks in almost all his classes. He could have gone into anything. Physics was his choice. I'm a physicist too, but I really believe I didn't direct him into it; he could have easily gone into any area -- when he considered his options, it was quite similar to my thought processes when I chose my area of study. He liked math/science best, and then when needing to narrow down further from that, math, physics and chemistry is what came top of mind. So, perhaps I've indirectly influenced him (and my daughter), by the way they were raised, to look at things differently, to always ask questions, to get to the basic principles behind everything. My wife is an early childhood educator, a very smart person too, and she had quite the time keeping our kids stimulated when at home with them when they were small -- always thinking ahead to give them slightly more challenging things to do or play with. My son was massively into patterns from as young an age as I can remember. Any kind of spatial toy, or colours, he would think of increasingly complicated ways to make patterns out of them. Trust me, there is no concern whatsoever that he has the brain to be able to do physics. He has very much a poetic side to him too, and we often philosophize about the meaning behind quantum physics stuff we've read about, or where society could go. Just yesterday we were talking about how great it would be to have some kind of "gravity motor" -- humans have learned to tame photons (the messengers of E-M fields); perhaps someday we will tame gravitons (the messengers for gravity). Yeah, we're not a normal family.

Man could I relate to dnmun's post. This sentence was especially poignant:

All the people i know who studied physics had a need to understand things at a level others don't care about. something about having the basis for the laws of nature in your head in order for the world to make sense.

That's it! Something I always took for granted. Then this one! Oh man do you have it nailed:

but he must have insight and imagination. the hard problems don't get solved when you pour through page after page of calculations or when you restart it and try to do it over again to find a solution. he has to be able to have the ability to just have things 'dawn' on him. it is a curious breadth of mental function where stuff you cannot see when you put it to paper comes back as an insight and you see through the whole problem.

I would drive superiors crazy over the years. I would just "see" the solution. They thought I was krazy with a capital "K"... typically 3 to 5 years later the project was redirected exactly the way I had envisioned it years before... It was uncanny how the solution was completely "obvious" to me, but obscure to them.

That's why I'm asking these questions here ... I feel the same way and I recognize it in so many of the members on E-S. I know that many here are of that same mindset, and I was hoping to tap into the colllective wisdom.

I don't have time at the moment to respond to many of the other great comments that people have made. I do appreciate them, and will read through them and perhaps respond in more detail.

 

[Dauntless]

...but Dauntless...my name is Jason Norrick. David Grosnick will remember me, even though I disappointed him by not going physics. His contact information is

Don't even sweat it. If you're going to go to online forums you gotta learn to just have fun with it all. Certain wannabee 'Masked Avengers' can make that difficult but. . . .

So I've always been the one pointed to as the one with all the potential at school, then there's been such efforts to distract from that at work. But the problems with "Driving them crazy" started in high school when the pricey private school my mother insisted on sending me to had teachers without a college education, leading to fallout that has stayed with me for the rest of my life. (At least so far.) But at work I always think the people I would have dealt with in the better jobs wouldn't have gone crazy if only I'd HAD one of those better jobs. The craziest people I always found in the "Elephant burialground" type workplace. I would wonder how I keep winding up in these places, I had to get hired as many as 5 times a year to maintain a full schedule and it was the bad spots that kept making offers. I just make the point that what drove them crazy was the trying to get things right when there were so many screwing things up and trying to cover it up. Trying to teach some of the others things they WANTED to learn, but that made the higher ups feel threatened, as though people doing their job right created others who could take their jobs. Except I watched so many lose their jobs because of the things they did to protect them.

The point being in a better organization I don't think they really believe you're ". . . .krazy with a capital "K"... " I knew this welding teacher in the ROP program, bottom of the barrel but usually a well meaning bunch, he was sure they were talking about him that way. He was a veteran welder with an engineering degree and all these certifications who had an accident and wasn't physically up to the heavy work so he was teaching. And he thought aloud about them believing he was insane, etc. He seemed amazed when I told him of being at the office, of going to a similar class across the way, of other teachers from the local program I had met, etc. who all said much the same thing about how hard it must be for someone like him in an environment without much aspirations. (ROP barely offers entry level skills.) Since the college welding teachers often don't even have bachelors degrees I can't help but wonder why he never moved in that direction, unless it was because he was almost a department head teaching his class in ROP.

The question is do you really believe that they 'Didn't get it," or can you see that so often they seem to think what is "Obivous" is also inaccessible or it would have been done before?

Oh well, I gotta take a final. Maybe I'll wind up with my first A in math since grade school.

I feel the same way and I recognize it in so many of the members on E-S. I know that many here are of that same mindset, and I was hoping to tap into the colllective wisdom.