Chevy Volt "lights up" 2 weeks after crash test!

[bigmoose]

Well a number of Chevy Volts were crashed to verify it's crumple worthiness. All were placed in the crashed car parking lot at DOT. This one "lit itself up" a few weeks after the crash. The article says the battery was punctured in the test. Now recommending that the battery be "drained" after a "significant" crash. Going to be interesting how first responders do that, if it is mandated.

http://www.freep.com/article/201111...ook-safety?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said today it had investigated a fire that occurred this spring, after the Volt extended-range electric vehicle underwent a 20 mile-per-hour, side-impact test for its five-star crash safety rating. The crash punctured the Volt’s lithium-ion battery, and after more than three weeks of sitting outside, the vehicle and several cars around it caught fire. No one was hurt.

General Motors believes the fire occurred because NHTSA did not drain the energy from the Volt’s battery following the crash, which is a safety step the automaker recommends, GM spokesman Rob Peterson said. NHTSA had not been told of the safety protocol, Peterson said.

 

[Lock]

Hehe...

This is the only crashed Volt ever to catch fire, GM spokesman Greg Martin said.

Had to qualify that statement...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27026
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27044

Lock

 

[neptronix]

There have been 3 reports of major fires where a volt was present now. This is the first one it was blamed.
1 was in a garage where another EV was being charged for many years.
the other is still being investigated.

Neil Young's lincvolt went up in flames too.

I think the electric gods are angry about these abominations containing gas motors. That's my theory.

 

[bigmoose]

I think the electric gods are angry about these abominations containing gas motors. That's my theory.

Thanks nept... I busted a gut laughing on that line!

 

[flathill]

I wonder if they cut the power aafter the crash thinking they were being safe as it is what you might do on a normal car. They coulda had a fully charged battery with no safety systems on....Still no excuse

Were probably going to have to have the cars call the special team fire dept

 

[John in CR]

Nah,

All they have to do is call me, so I can properly "dispose" of those horribly dangerous batteries. :wink:

 

[itchynackers]

Why would a punctured battery go thermal weeks after damage? It seems to me that it happened because the batteries were discharging too much, in which case safely discharging batteries is a bad idea. No?

 

[dnmun]

first, there is no evidence that the battery pack created this fire. why is this assumed?

this vehicle has an ICE and gasoline fuel also. there is a long history of the cruise control brake interlock switches igniting the brake fluid reservoir on ford products leading to vehicle fires in resting vehicles. there may be similar interlocks on this vehicle. in any case it would make sense to wait for an investigation to be completed. unfortunately there is no way to determine the capability of the investigators or the quality of their work. add in lawyers and media hype and utube fanboys.

 

[veloman]

What happens when a metal gas tank if punctured?

No danger there?

 

[Nehmo]

first, there is no evidence that the battery pack created this fire. why is this assumed?
...

From what I've read so far, there's nothing definitely pointing at the battery going thermal. However, everybody seems to be concentrating on the battery. Lithium Batteries Scrutinized by U.S. After GM Volt Fire.
Sandy Munro, president of Munro and Associates, an engineering consulting firm in Troy, Michigan:
"Lithium batteries could catch on fire if the battery case and some of the internal cells that store electricity are pierced by steel or another ferrous metal"...
“Lithium burns really hot,”... “But it doesn’t happen often. You have to do something pretty dramatic to make it catch fire.”
"If a lithium battery is pierced by steel, a chemical reaction will start raising the temperature and can result in a fire", he said. "If the piercing is small, that reaction can take days or weeks to occur," he said.

The Chevy Volt has 16kWh lithium–ion battery

 

[Nehmo]

I wonder if they cut the power aafter the crash thinking they were being safe as it is what you might do on a normal car. They coulda had a fully charged battery with no safety systems on....Still no excuse
...

Are you suggesting that disconnecting the battery (if it were done) is incorrect or unsafe? Why? You seem to imply that disconnecting would defeat a safety system. What kind of safety system do you mean?

 

[liveforphysics]

“Lithium burns really hot,”... “But it doesn’t happen often. You have to do something pretty dramatic to make it catch fire.”

There is NO metallic Lithium in a lithium ion battery. Zero. The lithium does not contribute to the fire at all, it's dissolved in an electrolyte, and responsible for 0% of the danger in the battery (in a healthy battery that didn't get charged while frozen at least). The things that burn impressively in the battery is the solvent and seperator, and in some batteries the cathode foil coating liberating O2 at certain temps, letting it burn faster/hotter. The flame stimulates plasma and arcing, which if the cell has voltage, can accelerate the decomposition of the flammable materials into fire and burning hotter/faster.

Yet... retards always talk about the Lithium, which isn't even a player.

 

[Nehmo]

...there is a long history of the cruise control brake interlock switches igniting the brake fluid reservoir on ford products leading to vehicle fires in resting vehicles. there may be similar interlocks on this vehicle...

The Speed Control Dactivation Switch fires led to an extensive recall. "The problem has been identified as brake fluid migrating from the leaking CCDS [Cruse Control Deactivation Switch] switch to the anti-lock brake system module connector, where it can ignite, smoke, or burn."
This was a Ford (as you noted) issue of a few years ago. The Chevy Volt is a new GM product, with, I assume, a different electrical system. It's unlikely the Chevy Volt fire is causatively related

 

[bigmoose]

Another article today: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/...ric-car-battery-fire-involving-chevy-volt/?ap

WASHINGTON — Federal officials say they are investigating the safety of lithium-ion battery in General Motors Co.'s Chevrolet Volt after a second battery fire following crash-testing of the electric car.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Friday that three Volt battery packs were crash-tested last week. In one instance, the battery caught fire afterward, and in another the battery emitted smoke and sparks.

Last May, a fire erupted in the battery of a Chevy Volt that had been damaged during a government crash test three weeks earlier. Last week's tests were an attempt to replicate the May fire.

 

[dogman dan]

Guess it would be a good idea then, after a crash that totals the car, to not park it in the garage attached to the house after all.

Nother damn inconvenient lithium battery safety rule. :x

 

[bigmoose]

I am not taking the approach of gas cars burn too so ignore these events. I am trying to look at it pragmatically from a risk perspective. These days with our attached garages, a garage fire will likely take the house with it. Some of us have bedrooms upstairs... there may a need for some extra risk abatement until we get the subtleties figured out, and get onto the 5th and 6th, etc. generation electric cars.

For example, if I was driving a Honda Civic GX (natural gas powered) even though I could refuel it in the garage, my refueling station would be outside. Even if that meant scraping ice off the car in the morning. I don't want to experience a 1 in a thousand "unknown unknown event" make my house a cinder.

 

[dogman dan]

True enough, if the bedroom is above the garage that would be something to lay there thinking about. One nice thing is a properly constructed garage has a 1 hour burn time wall if built to modern codes. So a solid core door, and one inch of sheetrock between you and the flames. But along the way, often somebody cut a hole in the fireblock sheetrock in the attic to do some kind of work up there.

So say you do have plenty of time, having smoke alarms all over, and got out fine. Still get to watch the house burn enough to ruin everything you own. So yeah, I'd say park the leaf or the volt oustide.

The nice thing about this report, is all the cases so far involve crashed cars. Junkyards will just have to set aside some space for the electric cars to burn by themselves if they even do it.

FWIW an El Paso Junkyard has had a long history of fires. Like hundreds in the last three years. They just keep on running cars though the shredder with the gas tank still in them. Wait till they do that with a volt. :lol:

 

[Hillhater]

FWIW an El Paso Junkyard has had a long history of fires. Like hundreds in the last three years. They just keep on running cars though the shredder with the gas tank still in them. Wait till they do that with a volt. :lol:

I doubt the shredder will even hiccup , but if they knew the street value of that pack, the yard boss may well shoot the shredder operator ! :lol: :lol:

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah the boys in the yard will likely make that battery dissapear fast. But if they did shred it, it would merely be 3rd or 4th fire that month. No big deal.

I don't see fires in crashed cars as being a big problem, not if the junkyard is doing shit so dumb they have multiple fires per month already. :lol:

 

[spinningmagnets]

The salvage parts system is pretty sophisticated these days. I'm certain that a Volt from a wreck that is determined to be an insurance "total" write off (unrepairable) would have the battery packs pulled out almost immediately. Partially for the unknown safety issues, but mainly because they represent quite a valuable resell item.

Since there isn't a huge amount of Prius batteries for sale for garage EV projects, there is currently a fairly big market for large-format batteries of any chemistry. I'm certain that buying a part of a Volt pack would require signing some type of liability waiver. I'm also certain that no insurance company or a GM dealer repairing a fairly new Volt with a battery issue (still under warrantee) would allow a part of a Volt pack from an older wreck, but...if they were put on Ebay, I think somebody would buy them?

 

[liveforphysics]

Now Chev is doing a loaner car for people who bought volts and are afraid of the fires...

Because if you massively crash your Volt and crush the battery, and you're a snail who first wants to finish reading the grapes of wrath and count the grains of sand in an hour glass, you just MIGHT not be able to get out in a week.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1069928_gm-offers-loan-cars-to-chevy-volt-customers-while-crash-fires-are-investigated

 

[dnmun]

one fire out of three crashed, and i heard the fire was in the electronics, not the pack. maybe the coolant shorted something out.

we gotta wait for the investigation but the news hounds will run with this as much as they can.

 

[Hillhater]

one fire out of three crashed, and i heard the fire was in the electronics,.

From one of BM earlier posts

..Another article today: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/nov/25/2nd-electric-car-battery-fire-involving-chevy-volt/?ap

.. WASHINGTON — Federal officials say they are investigating the safety of lithium-ion battery in General Motors Co.'s Chevrolet Volt after a second battery fire following crash-testing of the electric car.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Friday that three Volt battery packs were crash-tested last week. In one instance, the battery caught fire afterward, and in another the battery emitted smoke and sparks.

Last May, a fire erupted in the battery of a Chevy Volt that had been damaged during a government crash test three weeks earlier. Last week's tests were an attempt to replicate the May fire.

That sound more like 3 from 4 tests ! ( if you count smoke and sparks as a fire)

 

[bigmoose]

Luke's article says GM sends a crash team to the car within a day or two using OnStar to "drain" the battery. I wonder if they take it below the LVC and intentionally destroy it to drain it completely? What a waste of good NMC cells that is!

 

[liveforphysics]

Luke's article says GM sends a crash team to the car within a day or two using OnStar to "drain" the battery. I wonder if they take it below the LVC and intentionally destroy it to drain it completely? What a waste of good NMC cells that is!

What's interesting, is if they do drain is below LVC, how they expect to contain the puffing that is going to start happening. They have 170 awesome LG chem NMC pouch cells in that battery, and if they drain them down blow ~2v, in a few days it's going to start puffing each pouch. Either the containment structure of the pack will break apart, and the expansion will be tearing buses and tabs against other components etc, OR, the containment is strong enough that the pouch seams split, and it dumps a nasty mess of solvents into the pack body.

I'm taking a wild guess that they only drain to ~2.5v or so. This does reduces the energy stored to ~5%, and increases stability while decreasing the potential to something that will be less likely to produce unstable effects.

However, it is GM, and they have a gift for doing the exact opposite of whatever makes sense to do, and then botching it still, I wouldn't be surprised to see them do anything at all, including just shorting a resistor across the pack to bleed down to 0v.

If they have damaged cells and go to bleed to 0v, it's going to be fun when the damaged cells reverse polarity, and begin puffing immediately.