Cost of Gas vs. Electricity to Power a Car

marty

10 MW
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Buffalo, New York USA
Gas costs $4.00 a gallon. If a car gets 20 miles a gallon, it will cost $4 to go 20 miles.

How would you figure the cost of electricity to power a battery powered car? After looking at electric bill and dividing the total by number of kWh or kilowatt hours, it looks like I am paying about .40 cents a kilowatt hour.

Yea I know it would depend on the size and other factors with Electric Car. Can we just say small car with 4 wheels?
 
A small car might use 7 - 12 KWh per day, to go 30 - 50 miles.
 
40 cents/kWh sounds high to me, but maybe I'm just spoiled here in the Pac NW. The true costs for gas and electric should include ICE-component and battery replacement, respectively.
 
marty said:
Gas costs $4.00 a gallon. If a car gets 20 miles a gallon, it will cost $4 to go 20 miles.

How would you figure the cost of electricity to power a battery powered car? After looking at electric bill and dividing the total by number of kWh or kilowatt hours, it looks like I am paying about .40 cents a kilowatt hour.

Yea I know it would depend on the size and other factors with Electric Car. Can we just say small car with 4 wheels?

For most combinations of common weight/drag/elevation/road speeds, you can count on @250-600 watt hours per mile. For 20 miles, that is 5-12kwh. Don't forget to add a % of charging loss, 15%-40% to calculate actual electricity used.

40cents/kwh is much higher than we pay in SoCal.

-JD
 
40 cents a kwh is way high. Nowhere I know is electricity that much.

8-10 cents a kwh is U.S. average. Less at night when charging occurs. Average U.S. location solar PV panel charging will run about 18 cents a kwh, with 30 year amortized capital cost.

The Toyota Rav4 BEV 2WD SUV is EPA rated at 270 watt-hrs per mile city. Any decent large battery charger is > 94% efficient (utility energy to DC charging current). The EPA rating is utility energy, thus includes battery charger loss and battery charge/discharge losses. Thats 60 cents for 25 miles (EPA quote combined city/hwy).

Compare with EPA rating on a Jeep Cherokee 2WD diesel SUV of 18 mpg city. EPA combined quote of $5.16 for 25 miles. Thats nine times more.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car2tablef.jsp?column=2&id=24613
 
Re: 40 cents a kWh.

Got 3 bills here:
93 kWh for $38.00 - Basic Service $21.02 = $16.98 / 93 = .18 cents a kWh
79 kWh for $28.15 - Basic Service $16.21 = $11.94 / 79 = .15 cents a kWh
64 kWh for $25.67 - Basic Service $16.21 = $9.46 / 64 = .15 cents a kWh

I was wrong. Forgot to subtract the Basic Service charge. Looks like in this neighborhood we pay about 15 cents a kWh for Residential and 18 cents a kWh for Commercial. This includes delivery, taxes, taxes and more taxes.
 
Looks like according to all your math - It costs way less to power a small car with electricity then gas. Also it is hard to imagine cost of electricity flowing out of a receptacle. Someone once yelled at me for leaving a extension cord plugged in all night. All her electricity leaked into the cord :? :? :?

Now we need a small electric car that costs less then $20,000 goes 60 MPH or faster, with a range of 100 miles or farther. Lets put Fechter, Deafscooter, and Ypedal for motivation, together in a shop for about a year. Let them build the Electric Car I dream of.

Electric Bicycles are great. But they kind of suck when its cold, wet, or windy outside. Give me a car with heat please.
 
Now we need a small electric car that costs less then $20,000 goes 60 MPH or faster, with a range of 100 miles or farther. Lets put Fechter, Deafscooter, and Ypedal for motivation, together in a shop for about a year. Let them build the Electric Car I dream of.

We do need that, and it can be built, and I would like to build one. This is the concept that I'm contemplating:

How about an ultra lightweight, AWD, single seat BEV, made of light weight composites, like Kevlar, Spectra, or Carbon fiber. A 15-1/2 ft Kevlar canoe weighs 40 lbs, and has a MSRP of $2100 in low volume, and takes some serious punishment.

Use 4 wheel motors on 20” wheels, 4” wide tires. Even powerful bicycle Hub motors like the Crystalyte brushless DC 5304’s or 5305’s would work well in this application.

Use separate regen (ideally) controllers for each wheel and a 2 kwh utilized LiFePO4 battery pack. Width would be about 30”, with the small battery pack between the seat & belly plate. Room for a half-dozen grocery bags behind the back seat.

Because there is no axles, it would be great to use a small air compressor driving air shocks would allow the driver to adjust wheel height to accommodate different terrain. Set low for paved roads. In an accident, you could even blow the air out, dropping the belly plate to the road, resulting in a safe skid to a stop, rollovers being unlikely, due to the extremely low center of gravity of the vehicle. With composite construction, extreme lightweight and no engine the vehicle could be designed to absorb the much reduced energy of a collision by deforming the vehicle structure. Certainly much safer to ride in than a bicycle, e-bike or motorcycle, even at 60 mph. For heat, an onboard fuel powered heater (methanol is best), would keep the interior toasty warm @ even 30 below, using about 1 quart of fuel in 6 hrs. It is typically six times more efficient to use a fuel fired heater than to idle an engine to produce heat.

The specs I get are:

Acceleration, 0-40 mph: 2.5 sec

Weight: 320 lbs

Top Speed: 60 mph

Energy Economy: 25 miles/kwh city driving profile

Range: 50 miles

Charger: 1.5 kw @ 120 vac (standard 120vac plugin)

Charge Time: 37 miles range for 1 hr plugin

Turning radius: zero

The ultralight, AWD, small footprint BEV would be fun to drive, much more so than the Aptera concept. Zero turning radius, park in the tightest spot, faster acceleration than anything on the road, drive over the grass leaving no damage to it, over the curb, on the sidewalk, up the stairs and if so inclined, through the doorway, up the elevator and into the office. Drive over a frozen lake, where any 4x4 would get stuck because of their low torque and huge weight. Drive on hiking trails, no smoke, no smell, no noise. Drive in buildings and through the bush. Drive along the road shoulder, like a bicycle does, and pass everybody.

It would be simple to put 120 vac plugins at all parking spots like restaurants, office buildings, apartment buildings, shopping malls etc, as is already done in Northern Countries to supply heat for ICE engines in the cold.

Where I am, this buggy would be road legal, thus the motivation to build it. I bet automakers could make something like this in high volume for < $5,000, and it would last a lifetime with fairly simple maintenance.

With the ultralight, small footprint BEV concept, you could have three times the traffic density of present day. Eliminate most bottlenecks and traffic jams. Would make roads entirely compatible with energy squandering, environmentally friendly bicycles, e-bikes, and motorcycles. Road construction would be easier and cheaper with lightweight vehicles, elevated roadways built above existing roads, in high density traffic areas, would be quite feasible. Highway vehicles used to carry passengers or cargo could be moved to designated truck routes, where travel time would be still less than current overcrowded city roads.

Note that traffic congestion cost the consumer in the U.S, $64 billion, and traffic accidents $164 billion in 2005. Have a collision between those steel Tanks and there will be mayhem & destruction, which caused 40,443 deaths and 2.7 million injuries in the U.S. in 2005. And the mess created in these accidents can block already crowded roads for an hour or more. With the ultralight BEV, if broke down or damaged, grab it with one hand and drag it off the road.

The typical city commute vehicle, carries usually one person, weighs more than 3000 lbs, top speed of over a 100 mph. This makes sense? The average City driving speed is 20 mph. Traffic Jams, overcrowded roads are the norm nowadays, and its getting worse as governments can’t afford the high cost of road construction, they can’t even afford basic road infrastructure maintenance. What is the point of a vehicle going 100 mph? All it accomplishes is bottlenecks, disrupting the most efficient constant speed traffic flow. The simple truth is that for most city travel, an e-bike with a top speed of 35 mph, will beat any car on the road in travel time, because of its low footprint and maneuverability

The cost savings to governments would be immense: greatly reduced road construction & maintenance costs, reduced or eliminated public transit, reduced accidents & injuries, greatly reduced smog induced illness & death, greatly reduced oil imports & consequent oil wars, cheaper agriculture & air travel due to much less petroleum demand, major reductions in emissions and greenhouse gases. As a matter of fact, the cost savings would be so great as to make it profitable for the government to give these vehicles to the public.
 
Ask 10 engineers the same question. Get 10 different answers.

Dwd,
Don't like what you propose. Reason is there is nothing you can build that is better or cheaper then you can buy. Take that key board you typing on. Want to build one? Or just buy one for $10?

Here is what I propose - Buy a brand new or one year old Honda Civic or something like that. Remove engine, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Buy electric motor and battery. Lots of companies selling electric motor and battery kits. Search Google for Electric Car. Put it together and spend some time getting all the bugs out. Now buy 6 of the same car. Convert all to electric. Sell them. Now ya got a business. Do the same thing with a existing medium size car, large car, SUV, truck, etc.

Got the web site up and running. Volt Electric Vehicles http://www.VoltEV.com Now we just need a product to sell.
 
marty said:
Here is what I propose - Buy a brand new or one year old Honda Civic or something like that. Remove engine, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Buy electric motor and battery. Lots of companies selling electric motor and battery kits. Search Google for Electric Car. Put it together and spend some time getting all the bugs out. Now buy 6 of the same car. Convert all to electric. Sell them. Now ya got a business. Do the same thing with a existing medium size car, large car, SUV, truck, etc.
kinda-sorta....

Conversions don't make great EVs because they're heavy: built for gas.

Custom builds for EV can be a hassle with registration and safety req's.

So far, the Sparrow meets many goals, because it gets registered as a motorcycle (3 wheels).

:?
 
TylerDurden said:
36K and fugly to the max. :evil:

So we make something cheaper, better looking. :mrgreen:

Given that the Aptera is cheaper why is this even a debate? Given the choice of homebrew for $20k or a supported Aptera for $30k I'd take the Aptera... when the homebrew choice's platform is $36k then it's not even a question.
 
TylerDurden said:
36K and fugly to the max. :evil:

Seconded. That's about the ugliest thing I've ever seen, and you've posted pics of your cheese-wedge of a Citicar. :p
 
[
Now we need a small electric car that costs less then $20,000 goes 60 MPH or faster, with a range of 100 miles or farther. Lets put Fechter, Deafscooter, and Ypedal for motivation, together in a shop for about a year. Let them build the Electric Car I dream of

Don't like what you propose. Reason is there is nothing you can build that is better or cheaper then you can buy. Take that key board you typing on. Want to build one? Or just buy one for $10?

Marty, first you say build it, then you say don't build it, I don't know what to do.

Here is a better example of a commuter car, but please, NIX the lead-acid batteries:

http://www.commutercars.com/

I'm more thinking along the lines of a Recumbent Trike with wind faring, that are used to increase efficiency, except 4WD, and enclosed, but low profile cab. And Marty, I'm not trying to manufacture the things, this would be a hobby project. And an AWD BEV buggy would be WAY MORE FUN to drive, on and off-road, than the boring vehicles that you are talking about.

Certainly, these type of vehicles could easily be built by automakers, but they don't want to because profit margins would be low, the steel & oil companies, auto parts suppliers and auto maintenance shops would be unhappy and these types of vehicles really need city planners to come to their senses and built a sane transportation system. Of course that ain't going to happen -- UNTIL -- the SHITT hits the fan -- and you have a ticket for a front row seat.
 
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