Crystalyte 5305- Just How Well Does It Climb Hills?

[The Mighty Volt]

A bit of a "how long is a piece of string" question....but, coupled with a 35A controller and a 48v 20Ah battery, what are we talking here? I have read some rave reviews and all that jazz about aluminium drops being torn out by its sheer "brute" {by name and by nature, I am told} force.

Of course, there is the issue of "what is a hill", well by a hill I mean anything from a gentle sloping rise to something which would render a reasonable fit person puffy with effort. I mean the sort of hills that give you a panoramic view.

Those of you familiar with my ramblings {often ill-advised and bereft of technological merit } will know I am trying to build a twin-hub affair, with adequate power and adequate speed.

Up front we have the Aotema. Out back we are going to have the Crystalyte 5305. Or the Phoenix Brute. They are the same thing, right?

This 5305 represents my last big splurge. If this doesn't work, if I cannot get some sort of quasi-vehicular performance out of this sucker, then I think I will pack it in, and retire to a nursing hope, awakening only to scream "LIFEPO!" at the passing nurses. :lol:

 

[torker]

I just plugged in various motors on the ebike.ca simulator. Not that it will totally compare to the real world but I picked windings that would come out about the same top speed and the 5305 comes out good. I compared torque at 15 mph. and the 5305 showed 32 pounds thrust and 24 pounds for the 408 I think, crap Anyway the large diam. of the 53xx motors probably accounted for most of it as the 9C motor was in between the two. One good thing about the 53xx is that you can throw more amps at it without worrying about heat so much. Throw 50 amps and I bet it would climb like a mule.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

I just plugged in various motors on the ebike.ca simulator. Not that it will totally compare to the real world but I picked windings that would come out about the same top speed and the 5305 comes out good. I compared torque at 15 mph. and the 5305 showed 32 pounds thrust and 24 pounds for the 408 I think, crap Anyway the large diam. of the 53xx motors probably accounted for most of it as the 9C motor was in between the two. One good thing about the 53xx is that you can throw more amps at it without worrying about heat so much. Throw 50 amps and I bet it would climb like a mule.

How do I throw 50A at it? I guess I need a 50A controller, right?

At 50A, what happens first? The battery {20Ah} goes dead or the motor burns out?

Thanks for replying BTW! 8)

 

[torker]

Well a 20 ah battery would probably die first. I think that motor can handle that with ease. Since you are going to run 2 motors/controllers and throttles I assume maybe you can run 2 batteries. Run the 5305 at 60 V maybe. Actually you might be fine just the way it is. It should climb way better than the Atoema, which should be 20 amps.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Well a 20 ah battery would probably die first. I think that motor can handle that with ease. Since you are going to run 2 motors/controllers and throttles I assume maybe you can run 2 batteries. Run the 5305 at 60 V maybe. Actually you might be fine just the way it is. It should climb way better than the Atoema, which should be 20 amps.

Yep, the Atoema is 20A, i think it draws 24 Ap.

 

[pwbset]

35A controller and a 48v 20Ah battery

That's like ~1.6kw sustained... that'd get you up 10-14% with minimal pedaling effort at probably like ~15mph and you could do that all day long with an x5 without worrying about heat (you're battery will be slurped dry in 30min though). You won't have the OMG torque or acceleration with those anemic power settings, but you'll be able to climb stuff just fine.

Another issue you're likely to run into is BMS cutouts since an x5 will gobble up 35A without even blinking... that could get annoying unless you're a throttle whisperer already.

 

[torker]

That 5305 at 15 more amps and larger diam. should climb a lot better. Hopefully someone here with a similar setup will chime in. Yep I knew they would :lol:

 

[The Mighty Volt]

35A controller and a 48v 20Ah battery

That's like ~1.6kw sustained... that'd get you up 10-14% with minimal pedaling effort at probably like ~15mph and you could do that all day long with an x5 without worrying about heat (you're battery will be slurped dry in 30min though). You won't have the OMG torque or acceleration with those anemic power settings, but you'll be able to climb stuff just fine.

Another issue you're likely to run into is BMS cutouts since an x5 will gobble up 35A without even blinking... that could get annoying unless you're a throttle whisperer already.

The idea will be to use the X5 to prevent the Atoema being bogged down on hills. Then it will be bursts of power from each depending on the terrain. The plan is to get from A 2 B using both motors in the right way at the right time.

I understand the battery will be dead after 30 minutes- thats 30 minutes of constant use though. Even at that, I should be able to cover the distance, which will be 10 miles return tops.

 

[torker]

Sounds like you are using one battery and separate components on everything else? Any pics? Did you start a thread on this? I may have missed it.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Sounds like you are using one battery and separate components on everything else? Any pics? Did you start a thread on this? I may have missed it.

Yes, each motor will have its own battery and controller, and throttle.

I did not start a thread, should I? Would it be of benefit to the forum if I took photos and opened it up for discussion. I am more than willing to do this!

My next plan {which is the wrong word, none of this has been achieved with "planning"...hours of planning would have cost me weeks of work!} is to sell my 36v 20AH Cammy battery and replace it with a custom built unit with superior cells which fit's into the triangle of the frame.

 

[torker]

Pics are always good. A build thread would be cool.

 

[pwbset]

The idea will be to use the X5 to prevent the Atoema being bogged down on hills.

With an x5 why even have a second motor, but whatever floats your boat. Sounds like an interesting and fun build regardless... post photos! Gonna be a heavy mofo with that 24lb x5 in the back and a 48v20ah is gonna be at least 20lbs unless go LiPo... that's 45lbs right there. My x4 MTB setup all up is 65lbs and I thought that was a lot!

I understand the battery will be dead after 30 minutes- thats 30 minutes of constant use though.

Yes, good point sorry... I'm a 100% WOT kinda guy climbing the mountain I do so I tend to forget that's not normal battery use.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Okay then...where should this thread be posted? General or Technical?

The plan is also to stick the battery for the Atoema into the frame of the bike, and place the 48v 20Ah unit on the rear rack.

If the X5 turns out to be sufficiently powerful, then I might just sell the front setup.

But we shall see...........

 

[Doctorbass]

»Some real world data about the use of X5 5305:



With the right power to enjoy it fully ( 5kW+)

You can:

-Tow a schoolbus of 19200 pounds on flat ground ( TESTED)
-Acelerate from 0 to 40mph in less than 5sec ( tested)
-climb ANY HILL under 40% grade with 300pounds total when installed on a 20" wheel (tested)
-Crush your garage door ! due to jamed throttle when switchin on the crontroller.. (tested) :lol:

Doc

 

[The Mighty Volt]

»Some real world data about the use of X5 5305:



With the right power to enjoy it fully ( 5kW+)

You can:

-Tow a schoolbus of 19200 pounds on flat ground ( TESTED)
-Acelerate from 0 to 40mph in less than 5sec ( tested)
-climb ANY HILL under 40% grade with 300pounds total when installed on a 20" wheel (tested)
-Crush your garage door ! due to jamed throttle when switchin on the crontroller.. (tested) :lol:

Doc

It is an honour and a privilege to have you posting in my thread!!!

Malheureusement, I simply do not have the wherewithal to generate 5Kw of power.....I only own two batteries, one of them is 48v 20Ah and the other is 36v 20aAh.

 

[John in CR]

Mighty Volt,

Since this is your last go round, and you want performance, get yourself the big boy. Just don't under power it. Get a controller capable of sufficient current and that gives you the option of going to a higher voltage at a later date. Even if you don't use the top end speeds possible at say 72v, the difference in acceleration and perceived (and real) performance is quite significant as you go to the higher voltages. Feeding a big powerful motor low amperage really strangles it's performance, like it's just running on idle all the time. It doesn't stress or otherwise damage it, but it's just a waste. If you add a healthy voltage to the healthy current, then you'll get satisfied by having passing power too.

From the sound of it, an intermediate step of improvement is likely to leave you unsatisfied, so when you do get a new controller to drive your X5, get one that leaves you more options and don't have to buy another controller later. Then you'll have the motor and controller covered, then all you have to do is upgrade batteries as your path for increased performance, and batteries are the part seeing the biggest price reductions and biggest performance increases. That means saving batteries for last is very likely to enable you to get much more for much less at a later date.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Mighty Volt,

Since this is your last go round, and you want performance, get yourself the big boy. Just don't under power it. Get a controller capable of sufficient current and that gives you the option of going to a higher voltage at a later date. Even if you don't use the top end speeds possible at say 72v, the difference in acceleration and perceived (and real) performance is quite significant as you go to the higher voltages. Feeding a big powerful motor low amperage really strangles it's performance, like it's just running on idle all the time. It doesn't stress or otherwise damage it, but it's just a waste. If you add a healthy voltage to the healthy current, then you'll get satisfied by having passing power too.

From the sound of it, an intermediate step of improvement is likely to leave you unsatisfied, so when you do get a new controller to drive your X5, get one that leaves you more options and don't have to buy another controller later. Then you'll have the motor and controller covered, then all you have to do is upgrade batteries as your path for increased performance, and batteries are the part seeing the biggest price reductions and biggest performance increases. That means saving batteries for last is very likely to enable you to get much more for much less at a later date.

Thanks buddy. That is good advice.

Tell you nothing but the truth, I am learning this business the hard way.

I should have come here first and spent 2 months doing NOTHING other than getting opinion and watching videos.

Of course, my head was turned by some shit I saw on Ebay. Big mistake. Big mistake.

So, what are you suggesting, the 5305 with the 72v 40A controller? Is that the peak?

You see, this is part of my problem....I just dont know what the peak is.

 

[tostino]

I promise you won't hop on a bike at 72v and 40a and say "is that it?".

But it may not leave you on the edge of your seat, with hands twitching. My bike has just about double that amount of power. It does not feel crazy powerful to me.

I have a new job with more income than before, and am thinking about the kinda project I can do during the summer after I have some cash saved up to give me something I can really get a rush out of riding.

I really like the 9c that I have on my bike now! I am pushing 51v 110+a through it, and it's taking it like a champ with no over heating. I've tried to drain my whole battery pack going at full speed (45mph using between 35-40a cruising at that speed), and my motor was completely fine with it, even with hard accelerations. I kinda doubt you need two motors for the kinda setup you want, it may actually make performance worse than with one properly set up x5.

Just some food for thought.

 

[BLUESTREAK]

HI MIGHTY VOLT: Don't hook up that atoma with the x5305 it will hold back x5 much like applying a small amount of brake. Where i live here in TAMPA, FL. close to the hillsbourgh river everthing is small hill inclines and I run a x5305 on a front fork SCHWINN MERDIAN TRIKE (soon to run a x5306 at 72 volts) AND IT goes 25mph. and (with me on the trike it weighs over 4oo lbs.) and it climbs like a cat. i am using a 48volt 20amp. CAMMY-CC battery and a 48volt 40amp controller. Go to the for sale section and see (MAXWELL57'S ITEMS ) HE HAS A 60VOLT 50AMP CONTROLLER AND A X5305 REAR MOTER WITH THE THROTTEL AND ANY OTHER GODDIES YOU WANT AT GOOD PRICES. Then get (JHR) to lace it up and your face will have a permenent (EV-GRIN) THAT ANY MOTHER WOULD BE PROUD OF.

 

[Doctorbass]

The Mighty Volt, That's my pleasure to help everybody like you getting the best performance you expect to get.

Since i discovered brute power using X5, i just can't go back with lower power.

What thay mean?... siple.. You will always want more :wink:

I agree on starting with 40A and 48V or 72V or just like your budget allow you.


You need to know that you will always need a battery BMS capable of more or equal current than the controller limit is set.

40A battery with 35A cotroller = yes
40A battery with 40A controller = yes
40A battery with 60A controller = not recommanded

A X5 is probably the more powerfull hub motor for bike on the planet, but the Nine Continent is also a great powerfull motor.

The difference between both of them is that the X5 can take 3000W continuous no prob ( TESTED)...and 15kW peak ( 10sec) eventhough it is rated 750W

The nine continent can have the same torque but the max power is lower than the X5.
The reason is that the 9C is smaller, lighter and can dissipate less heat due to less surface area and also dur to the overal construction. The 9C can take 65-75% of the continuous power of an X5 and some have tested 10kW for short time before it blow.

The are few person here to have been able to blow an X5.. less than 3 persons...

These X5 are bulletproof!

At least if you only push them with 2000W, you absolutly dont need to bother with overload... they can take that continuous no prob!

getting a great powerfull controller first with your motor is the key.. then you can upgrade for a more powerfull battery then to rise the current limit to match the new battery :wink:

Doc

 

[dogman dan]

Yep. You get an x5 with a 60 amp continuous capable battery, and you will be happy about everything but the price.

Dual motors is a viable plan, But it's just not needed with an x5 with 40 amps continuous of 72v on it.

Your current batteries are the main problem. I suspect some defective cells in there. A headway 48v 10 ah pack would be a good intermediate step for running the aotema till you have the cash for the x5 on 72v. Later it could be rebuilt into a 72v pack.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Okay, thanks for those replies and for the information! It is appreciated!!!

But....how do I know how many Amps my battery is capable of producing???

Thanks.

 

[recumbent]

Okay,....how do I know how many Amps my battery is capable of producing???

Yeah, i was wondering the same thing?

My bike peaks at 1,500 watts with the common set-up listed below.
And 35 amp controler.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

Peak watts drawn by my bike is 936w.

 

[GrayKard]

Okay, thanks for those replies and for the information! It is appreciated!!!

But....how do I know how many Amps my battery is capable of producing???

Thanks.

You need to know the C rate of the cells in your battery pack to determine that. If you have a 20ah pack and it has a 1 C rate it will be OK to pull 20 amps out of it continuously provided the batteries actually meet the specs and aren't over rated.

If the cells in that same pack are 2 C rated then 40 amps continuous is fine.

Cells also have a C rating for what you can pull in short bursts so look for that info so you know what kind of peak amps you can pull. Now to confuse this further you have to know what settings the BMS has for max amp draw before it cuts out.

Gary