Dealers unhappy over EV charger costs.

[Hillhater]

.several dealer groups piped up about how much it’s actually going to cost them to install some of the newer chargers some manufacturers believe should be mandatory if they’re intent on selling EVs. Some showrooms are finding out that not all buildings are wired for the high loads incurred by modern charging systems, requiring additional financial investments they hadn’t counted on. With automotive dealerships using product delays as leverage for unprecedented vehicle pricing, it’s nice to see them getting a taste of their own medicine. Or it would be if the costs for updating facilities weren’t guaranteed to be reflected on future window stickers.

A recent report from Automotive News highlighted some of the NADA exchanges, offering up a few anecdotes where dealers were blindsided by how much it actually costs to set up some of their stores. In one case, the Orlando, Florida-based Starling Automotive Group said electricians doubled their estimate when they wanted to install Level 3 chargers yielding 150 to 350kW of draw. Having already reported on the exchange from the NADA event, Automotive News conducted a recent follow-up interview to see how things were progressing.

The dealer group realized that installing the latest chargers was about to become substantially more complicated after the utility company explained its buildings weren’t rated for the kind of power usage required. Starling said the company stated that they would need to upgrade building services before any chargers could even be installed, effectively doubling the original estimate to a new total ballparking at $220,000.
That’s in addition to any downtime that occurs during the installation process, which could take well over a year to complete.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2022/03/dealers-annoyed-with-price-of-ev-charger-installs/

 

[calab]

I never thought of that, yes the industrial zones will be wired for higher power requirements which I think is just more voltage splits above and beyond the normal 220/240v, industrial zones have higher voltages 480v and other variants in 3 phase.
This would mean the industrial zones have the power lines rated for their power requirements while the commercial and residential zones have hard wire cable lines much smaller size gauge.

An interesting dilemma.

I dont quite get the 2.0 vs 2.3 jazz, maybe Apparent vs Actual or Delta vs Wye or just something simple as Phase arrangements.
https://www.oempanels.com/480v-3-phase

Need a Lineman with an ebike or ev to chime in or Siri. Get the low down on wire gauges used.


https://findanyanswer.com/what-is-460v-3-phase

480V 3 Phase is the most common power system used in US industrial plants. Most US industrial facilities use 480V 3 Phase instead of 208V or 240V because it provides 2.3 (480 /208) times or 2.0 (480 /240) times more power with the same current.

Furthermore, what is 415v 3 phase? The three phase single-phase 415V supplies are available between any of the three phases. (Note that the PD when a load is connected between phase lines is one voltage minus the other voltage, the resultant voltage when two phase lines are connected together is the line voltages added together (figure 4.4a).)

Also Know, is there a difference between 460v and 480v?

The NEMA standard for a motor operating on a utility supply voltage of 480V is 460 V. Thus, the 460V motor is appropriate on a 480V supplied system. Note: You cannot purchase a motor from a manufacture rated at the nominal system (utility) voltage.

How many volts is a 3 phase?

The voltage betwee two line is called line voltage . 3 phase system is expressed with line voltages. The line votage is 440 volt. Also the voltage between any one phase and neutral for a 3 phase system is 240 volts.

 

[JackFlorey]

In one case, the Orlando, Florida-based Starling Automotive Group said electricians doubled their estimate when they wanted to install Level 3 chargers yielding 150 to 350kW of draw.

Why would they want to install level 3 chargers? Level 2 chargers are fine for dealerships, since they only have to keep their inventory cars charged (and have charging available for customers if they want to offer a perk.) And any modern building in the US can support a few level 2 chargers.

 

[Hillhater]

Why would they want to install level 3 chargers? ......

From the referenced article....

the newer chargers some manufacturers believe should be mandatory if they’re intent on selling EVs.....
........
....the Hyundai dealership is worried that the manufacturer might withhold product if it cannot support EVs as asked. Presently, this trend is limited to companies that have committed themselves the hardest to electrification. But the assumption is that it’ll gradually become commonplace as more EVs hit the road. One of the best ways to showcase how quickly your new battery-powered products can charge is by hooking them up to a fast charger and showing the customer, reducing fears about range anxiety and driving downtime that are normally associated with electric cars. Opening them to the public is also a sly way to convince people to frequent your lot, especially if the vehicle they’re driving didn’t originate from there.

 

[JackFlorey]

One of the best ways to showcase how quickly your new battery-powered products can charge is by hooking them up to a fast charger and showing the customer, reducing fears about range anxiety and driving downtime that are normally associated with electric cars.

So for purposes of advertising.

Given that waiting times for EV's are now in the months, I don't think that's a big need right now.

 

[neptronix]

Oh yeah. There's going to be some growing pains along this journey, and a lot of companies don't know what they don't know.... so get the popcorn, lol

 

[nicobie]

My son in law is the estimator for our local electric utility and he has been freaking out about the switch to electric cars. He says there is no way our little city cannot support too many more car chargers per city block and that some of the richer areas are already overloaded.

Because of Covid the wait list for the new transformers he needs is currently over a year long. He is having to go with rebuilt ones and they are almost impossible to find too as nobody is getting rid of their old cores. He has been telling his bosses that he can't supply power for new buildings and that they are going to have to start denying building permits. They don't want to hear about it and are just sticking their heads in the sand.

There will be trouble when this hits the local news and he is afraid that he will be blamed for it. He's starting to put out feelers for another job just in case...

 

[Hillhater]

One of the best ways to showcase how quickly your new battery-powered products can charge is by hooking them up to a fast charger and showing the customer, reducing fears about range anxiety and driving downtime that are normally associated with electric cars.

So for purposes of advertising.

Given that waiting times for EV's are now in the months, I don't think that's a big need right now.

You are not in sales or marketing , are you Jack ?

 

[Hillhater]

Because of Covid the wait list for the new transformers he needs is currently over a year long. He is having to go with rebuilt ones and they are almost impossible to find too as nobody is getting rid of their old cores. He has been telling his bosses that he can't supply power for new buildings and that they are going to have to start denying building permits. .....

Why would they deny BPs just because there is a transformer supply problem. ?
Is this any different to the shortage of lumber, plumbing fittings, or general building materials that is plaguing the construction industry currently. Even water is critical shortage in some areas, but it doesnt seem to be halting building permits.

 

[JackFlorey]

You are not in sales or marketing , are you Jack ?

No thank God.

 

[JackFlorey]

My son in law is the estimator for our local electric utility and he has been freaking out about the switch to electric cars. He says there is no way our little city cannot support too many more car chargers per city block and that some of the richer areas are already overloaded.

Sounds like they need Freewire chargers (no need for 480V feeds for level 3 chargers) - at least until the grid catches up.

https://freewiretech.com/

 

[nicobie]

Why would they deny BPs just because there is a transformer supply problem. ?
Is this any different to the shortage of lumber, plumbing fittings, or general building materials that is plaguing the construction industry currently. Even water is critical shortage in some areas, but it doesnt seem to be halting building permits.

I would think the new owner might get upset when the utility is unable to supply electricity because they can't source any transformers. Best to just not allow new construction. My city owns the local grid. Kind of hard to issue a permit when they know they can't do their part because of the lack of transformers. Talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen!

 

[JackFlorey]

I would think the new owner might get upset when the utility is unable to supply electricity because they can't source any transformers.

Issue an altered permit that shows the limits on the power they can get from the existing distribution system. If they don't want to proceed because it's not enough power - it's up to them. If they want more power than that, they can always get a net-zero solar power system, or get a facility in an area with more distribution capacity.

 

[Hillhater]

Nah, just approve on the basis that it is a “Green” development, off grid, that must be self sufficient using only solar + battery power source !
Isnt that the objective for the future anyway ?
Or is there some problem with that solution ? :wink:

 

[nicobie]

It's hard for any government entity to move quickly, my city is no different. I'm just proud that we own our power source and local grid. I pay less per KWh than the surrounding communities do who are serviced by a big 'private' power company (PG&E). The city actually makes a small profit off of the electric sales which goes back into the reserve fund.

 

[neptronix]

My son in law is the estimator for our local electric utility and he has been freaking out about the switch to electric cars. He says there is no way our little city cannot support too many more car chargers per city block and that some of the richer areas are already overloaded.

Because of Covid the wait list for the new transformers he needs is currently over a year long. He is having to go with rebuilt ones and they are almost impossible to find too as nobody is getting rid of their old cores. He has been telling his bosses that he can't supply power for new buildings and that they are going to have to start denying building permits. They don't want to hear about it and are just sticking their heads in the sand.

There will be trouble when this hits the local news and he is afraid that he will be blamed for it. He's starting to put out feelers for another job just in case...

Damn..
My office is in a 'business incubator' complex and i hear about these kinds of experiences ( getting hamstrung with costs, parts availability, laws, etc ) all day long.

People wonder where the labor force went.. I think the reason is perpetual discouragement leading to learned helplessness... if not that, it's the mega inflation that was induced by governmental covid mitigation measures + the market's current inability to soak up that inflation = you get paid the same, but it's worth 33% less now.

It's pretty rough out there!

 

[Chalo]

People wonder where the labor force went.. I think the reason is perpetual discouragement leading to learned helplessness... if not that, it's the mega inflation that was induced by governmental covid mitigation measures + the market's current inability to soak up that inflation = you get paid the same, but it's worth 33% less now.

Dollar inflation has much more to do with the firehose of zero percent money for investment banks the Fed has used almost continually to prop up the equity markets since 2001. The principal has to go back home eventually, but whatever profit it produced hangs around cluttering up the system, overwhelmingly in the hands of hustlers and scammers rather than working people.

Folks aren't going to kick ass for an employer if they can't make a decent living that way. Nor should they, when the only end goal of the business is to generate profit for other people who haven't done anything to make that profit.

 

[neptronix]

Folks aren't going to kick ass for an employer if they can't make a decent living that way. Nor should they, when the only end goal of the business is to generate profit for other people who haven't done anything to make that profit.

So with you on that.

I have been sort of on a spiritual quest lately to figure out how companies like Costco are thriving. Because i want my business to work like theirs. I want a fair system which is more of a circle or flat hierarchy rather than the pyramid structure that's designed to funnel money to the top. The main difference between walmart and costco ( both which were inspired by the same person ) is the structure shape and the priorities.

I have talked to many people in the office about their difficulty in hiring anyone. We're all scratching our heads as to where the workforce went. Yet.. there continue to be more new guys coming into the office complex starting their own thing. What happened is that since we can't hire anyone, we've started hiring each other during the pandemic crap, and ended up working together to the point where we're essentially all one large business, not legally, but in spirit.

So that's been weird and mind blowing to see. i've been here for 3 years, and never noticed anything like it until year two of surviving under the government's pandemic response.

My feeling is that, the little break from humanity we had across the world probably lead a lot of people, while collecting unemployment, to consider how they feel about pyramid organizations to evaluate if they ever wanted to go back to one. And there aren't many circular or flat organizations to join, so the best next option is to start your own business.

I have a term for it: capitalist rumspringa.

Yet... companies like Costco have never had a hard time hiring! In fact, a job at Costco is so appealing that they have to publish documents like these warning people of fraudulent offers to be employed there. What a hilarious problem to have!!



Maybe the circular organization is in and the pyramid is on it's way out. Or at least that's what i'd like to believe.

But i do know that the zeitgeist says that people around the world are getting really tired of living under, and working for these pyramids. Some of those kids after the rumspringa are not coming back to the plantation. They're done.

 

[nicobie]

I believe that some of the problem is due to the baby boomers starting to retire and Covid persuaded ones on the line to just go ahead and retire early.

 

[eMark]

I believe that some of the problem is due to the baby boomers starting to retire and Covid persuaded ones on the line to just go ahead and retire early.

Baby boomers have been retiring since 2000. Sure dealers are uhappy as it cuts into their profits ... as if it will result in some going out of business ???

That's Life ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avU2aarQUiU