E-bike Pricing.......

[usf_tim]

I've always been amazed that some e-bike cost up to $15K(5x cost of my 1st car). Can't wait for economy of scale to kick in when e-bikes become more popular.
Electric motorcycles are selling for less that top of line e-bikes. I guess they have their manufacturing cost under control.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/02/zero-motorcycles-2013-models/

Tim

 

[kriskros]

thats not an ebike, that is an electriuc motorcycle...look at some ebike pics.... i traded a used wringer washing machine for my first car

 

[Goathead]

I think you may be under a misapprehension . . .
That depicted is definitely a motorcycle. Bikes can be had for far less.

Here's a few:
Polaris (the snowmobile people; $couple grand)
http://polarisebikes.com/ebike-products/vector/

Prodeco (a full-size folding bike; 'bout $one and half)
http://prodecotech.com/bikes/phantom-x/

Mercedes (yeah, THAT one; priced accordingly $5-ish)
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=27873

And those are all pre-builts. Easy to assemble a very, very nice e-bike yourself from your existing bike for much, much less.

There, now you're out of excuses. Time to take the plunge!!

 

[dogman dan]

I think that's what he's trying to say. Look at the price of the Zero, and compare to some of the highest end bikes.

What you have to remember about bikes usf, is there is a definite market segment out there that likes it high priced. Quality has to be good of course, but the only thing that really matters to these folks is that my bike cost more than yours. It's a dick size contest, no different from the long camera lens, the stupidly expensive stereo, or the bottle of wine 100 years old.

So of course there are people filling that market. It's wonderfully profitable to sell to people that actually like being overcharged.

 

[Grey beard]

There will never be an "economy of scale" here. For the motorcycle, if you need more battery, just slide it in. More power, just slide it in. Not enough room, just make it bigger. Not strong enough, add more iron.
The bike is a different critter. It needs to be a bike. Therefore you can't stick in a battery that makes yours legs split out at a 90 degree angle. You can buy a 10kw motor that weighs 40lbs for $200 bucks if you are building a motorcycle. The motorcycle weights 250-450lbs. Try peddling that sucker up a hill. Building a bicycle that'll run 30mph for 30mi takes a lot of work if it is still going to be a bike, and design of the bike, the micro motors, light weight and reliable drive systems, small controller systems, cost to engineer and build. A motorcycle could use a golf cart controller.
Economy of scale: Bought my GF an Ipad for Christmas last. Just bought a new desk top last month. My desk top has HD and ram with #s like the national debt. Gazzillions. Has a monitor as big as the tv and I almost have to push my chair back to see it all. Wonder of wonders, it cost $200 less than the f-ing Ipad.

Economy of scale won't work very well here, as you can't just throw bigger at a bike, and have it work. Micro costs $.

 

[Alttransbikes]

...or perhaps just reining in design parameters, IE: a 20mph bike than goes 30 miles.

 

[Tom L]

There will never be an "economy of scale" here. For the motorcycle, if you need more battery, just slide it in. More power, just slide it in. Not enough room, just make it bigger. Not strong enough, add more iron.
The bike is a different critter. It needs to be a bike. Therefore you can't stick in a battery that makes yours legs split out at a 90 degree angle. You can buy a 10kw motor that weighs 40lbs for $200 bucks if you are building a motorcycle. The motorcycle weights 250-450lbs. Try peddling that sucker up a hill. Building a bicycle that'll run 30mph for 30mi takes a lot of work if it is still going to be a bike, and design of the bike, the micro motors, light weight and reliable drive systems, small controller systems, cost to engineer and build. A motorcycle could use a golf cart controller.
Economy of scale: Bought my GF an Ipad for Christmas last. Just bought a new desk top last month. My desk top has HD and ram with #s like the national debt. Gazzillions. Has a monitor as big as the tv and I almost have to push my chair back to see it all. Wonder of wonders, it cost $200 less than the f-ing Ipad.

Economy of scale won't work very well here, as you can't just throw bigger at a bike, and have it work. Micro costs $.

I'm pretty sure the economy of scale usf_tim was talking about was sales volume vs price. Not power vs price.

 

[usf_tim]

I was referring to what Dogman called "big dick" syndrome. That is over paying to have the "best bike". I own a Galaxy S phone that cost me about 4x less than the latest Iphone. Since both Samsung and Apple have economy of scale ie both sell hundreds of millions of phones their is very little difference in price of components in phone. People are just "willing" to pay more for an Iphone.

I look for value when buying a product usually in $/hr of use. Say i buy a TV for $2K and watch 3 hrs of TV a night. One could argue that i got good value out of a large screen TV since it got a lot of use out of it. If i bought a e-bike for $15K and only rode it 3 hrs week i got much less value out of bike. I think i would be a lot thinner and healthier if i rode 3 hrs and day and watched TV 3 hrs week but we can save that for another thread ;o).

One other thing i like to consider when making what i would consider a large purchase is "% of income". Say i only made $30K/hr then it would be crazy for me to buy $15K e-bike no matter how much i rode it. If on the other hand i made $500K yr than it would have very little affect on my daily life to buy such a bike.

Anyway i think performance and quality tend to asymptote fairly quickly above a certain point.

For now i guess will stick to pedaling until one i make a lot more money or two the price of e-bikes come down.

Tim

 

[neptronix]

My first ebike conversion cost me $700, with a 40-50 mile range at 18mph, and the components were put on a $160 used trek mountain bike.

The next eBike conversion i built ( my MAC Trek ) cost just about $1,300 and does ~25mph for 25-30 miles on the same components.

The thing i built to go up pike's peak at 25-30mph on a 7% grade constantly ended up costing well under the $2,000 mark i expected. That thing was wicked smoking fast and i miss it - but i sold it's components to build something even faster

Prebuilt bikes with fancy looks can't compete with a home build on value.

 

[migueralliart]

The only thing they offer is the ease of plug and play and reliability.!

 

[Goathead]

I was referring to what Dogman called "big dick" syndrome. That is over paying to have the "best bike". I own a Galaxy S phone that cost me about 4x less than the latest Iphone. Since both Samsung and Apple have economy of scale ie both sell hundreds of millions of phones their is very little difference in price of components in phone. People are just "willing" to pay more for an Iphone.
...

Anyway i think performance and quality tend to asymptote fairly quickly above a certain point.

For now i guess will stick to pedaling until one i make a lot more money or two the price of e-bikes come down.

Tim

There's a lot of things where "the sky's the limit." There may even be industries that count on it -- so that money can be laundered, for example.
But simply serviceable is often enough. (The shows don't get any better on a big screen TV, for example.)

If you can do some of the work yourself, you can slip an e-bike into a very modest budget (millions of people -- not hyperbole -- in China already have . . . ).

I started with an existing bike, and a kit and with a lead-acid battery. That way I could spread the costs out over a few months (knowing I'll probably wreck the battery pretty quickly.)

If you need help rationalizing, I and many others here will be happy to help. But you might start by figuring out if you can replace car usage for some errands -- it makes an e-bike look cheap. Not as cheap as pedaling, but if you can shave your time by half or haul more pounds of groceries and you'd be taking the car otherwise . . .

 

[usf_tim]

Goathead,

I would agree with you that above a certain point tv size doesn't improve the quality of the show. I think anything above a 46" is going to be about the same. A 70' screen that cost 10X much is not going to improve my viewing experience but a 26" screen is going to be a bit of an eye strain.

I have built a couple KIT e-bikes for other people. I used Golden Motor kits(they where about 4 yrs old and not that great in quality). I had one with NiMH and the other was LiFePO4. Both packs where not maintained by the owner and died a premature death. They didn't like all the wires and extra weight on their bikes so they took they off and let them sit for long time. Everything was returned to me but since the packs are no good i haven't been able to test the hub motor to see if it still works. DIY kits are not good for people who don't have interest or understanding to maintain them.

That is another reason why Iphone's are popular.

Anyway i'm sure I don't want a hub motor on my Specialized Roubaix road bike. Not that you could get one on those narrow road wheels.

I do have an old Trek Mountain bike i could convert....All i need is time and money )

Tim

 

[Goathead]

Goathead,

I have built a couple KIT e-bikes for other people. . .
That is another reason why Iphone's are popular.
....All i need is time and money )

Tim

I didn't know you'd already had some experience -- didn't want you to deny yourself the fun. Sounds like you're probably only a battery away . . .
I'll echo that you need either some time & experience or a boatload of money just now.

I think the early days of automobiles were probably about like this -- as were the early days of computers. Not quite for everybody. But you get an electric starter and automatic choke/timing/transmission and all of sudden everyidiotbody in the world can drive a car. Likewise with Apple's walled garden.

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you absolutely must have a turn-key factory E-bike, the 36V/Bafang Currie Izip Metro isn't bad at $2500. But...just about anyone here on ES can beat that by $1,000 with the $400 bike of your choice plus $1,100 for the motor/controller/throttle/battery/charger.

http://www.electricbike.com/currie-izip-metro/

 

[grwalker]

The other ebike that looks pretty good is the Prodeco Phantom X and it only costs @ $1,300.
http://prodecotech.com/bikes/phantom-x/

 

[mythprod]

Yeah I've seen that bike on other sites (probably amazon) and I like the actual bike. The battery and motor are too wimpy for my commute, I'd have to upgrade the electronic components, but the actual bike is pretty attractive.