EVs: Welding versus Brazing

TylerDurden

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Bikes are both welded and brazed... trailers are welded... cars are welded... etc.

I can braze ok, since I have been soldering for a long time. I've used brazing to repair my mowing deck and the plow-frame for my tractor, and the brazing is very strong. The brazing on my trailer was the only thing undamaged in the recent wreck. (see below)

I understand that brazing allows connecting dissimilar metals, but other than that, I don't really get why use one or the other.

I'm building another trailer and need to know if brazing-on the spring hangers will be strong enough, but the general questions the situation raises are important regarding construction of scratch and modded EVs.

Thoughts?

:?:
 

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Brazing generally happens at a lower temperature than welding. On thin metals this is an issue because the heat affected zone on each side of a weld is weakened.

Brazing should be fine for your trailer if it is intended for light duty (i.e. a bike rather than a boat). About four months ago, I made the steel frames for some heavy wooden gates (about 7' long and perhaps 80 lbs, each swing) and brazed the hinges to the posts as well as all the parts of the frame. They're still holding fine, with no sag or breakage. I was fairly liberal in applying the metal.

I have a mig welder, and I'm set up to gas weld and braze, too. Unless I'm working on light sheet metal, I'm favoring brazing more and more for jobs where I used to mig weld. You just need to be sure to have nice clean metal. Brazing is less forgiving that way.
 
Thanks Shock,

I could understand in production-lines, that welding would be cheaper, as brazing filler metals cost more. But, building an EV bike, trike or quad; brazing seems perhaps more appropriate. (?)

I have an O/A setup, but so far only used for brazing.

The trailer may carry 1500lbs on two axles.
 
750 lbs per axle, 187.5 lbs per perch (8 of 'em, right?). I'm thinking the dynamic loads on some bike joints hit lots more than that, so a heavy braze will probably be ok, but then your dynamic loads may not be evenly distributed, so consider that any perch may see dynamic loads on up to 1500 lb dead weight.

The problem I see is that you will have a lot of starting and stopping, so back and forth lateral, shearing force, which might fatigue a braze bead over time. Any chance of brazing some gussets on as well, so you aren't relying on just a couple of fillet beads per perch??

I know there's a lot of data on braze strength out there.

You could also take it to your local trade college and let the kids have a go at it with the stick welders.
 
I'm not completely averse to welding, I just haven't done it myself since... well, a long time ago when I learned. I'd need to practice. A lot. Brazing is quite in my comfort zone. Some information I have read says brazing is stronger, since it doesn't erode/distress the workpieces, but I never see big stuff brazed; always welded.

The punishment my plowframe takes and the the last trailer being obliterated except the brazed pieces, leads me to mostly accept the strength of brazing for ebike/EV applications. But, I haven't got years of personal experience to reflect on.


The way the trailer is coming together, it looks like the hangers will bolt-on; but I may add some fillets to beef-up the rig.

:?
 
welding is the method of choice in manufacturing because it is much easier to automate. the weld fill materials are about 50 times cheaper than Braze materials. the equipment for welding is cheaper as well let us face it a moron proof mig welder is less than $200. an oxy torch to do a braze is about $500. also the surface preparation for brazing is much more detailed. nope manufacturing uses welds cause they is way cheaper.

most people confuse brazing with low temperature soldering. it is not a low temperature process. whether it is a welded joint or a brazed joint, both are stronger than the base material if properly done.

in many special applications were the ultimate in strength is required Brazing is the method of choice. for example joining segments of gun barrels. and by this i mean a real gun barrel like in 16inch naval gun (think Battleship) or 280mm howitzer.

rick
 
rkosiorek said:
manufacturing uses welds cause they is way cheaper ... whether it is a welded joint or a brazed joint, both are stronger than the base material if properly done.

Mostly true, but a good weld will almost always be stronger than a good braze, since the aim in welding is generally to match the composition of the weld metal with that of the stuff you're welding together. Do a tensile test on a rod of steel and a rod of brazing material of the same diameter and the steel will win. The same applies if you compare the strength of a welded joint with a brazed joint.

Brazing was originally used for bike frames because it was the most accessible joining method. Good MIG sets were unavailable and TIG sets cost the earth. It continued to be used after welding sets came down in price partly because good brazing looks very neat and because of the perceived value of the craftsman's skill. The vast majority of frames are MIG welded now, with the higher quality frames being TIG welded. TIG welding takes just as much skill as brazing and the equipment is still more expensive. As far as I know no one is building brazed frames for reasons of strength.

In this case though, the real question is whether brazing will be good enough, and it probably will, especially if you're bolting the joist hangers as well.
 
One thing I forgot. Where brazing works best of all is in lap joints, where you have a large overlapping area with a close fit between the parts. If the surfaces are prepped well this gives a joint with a very large area, so even though the filler is a weaker material than steel per square millimetre, the overall strength of the joint can be much higher than the surrounding steel.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I first got a weenie O/A setup, since it was cheaper and faster than finding a replacement deck for my old tractor. After fixing that, it was like a door opened and I started doing repairs to stuff I never considered before.

I marvel at stuff like Malcom's conversion, Freddyflatfoot's trike and all the others. I never thought I'd be contemplating similar projects, because I was stuck in the "I don't know how to weld" mindset. I'm sure there are courses at the community-college where I can get better trained by an experienced welder, but brazing may be fine for bike and EV building.

I now have bigmutha commercial-size tanks, since it is soooo much cheaper to refill/swap.

I don't know squat about welding aluminum... I've seen some cheesy promos for some kind of aluminum brazing/solder rods, but I don't know the story there.

:D
 
I can't weld aluminium either. Never bothered to learn as the alloys I'd want to use for structural stuff all have to be heat-treated after welding to achieve their full strength. To get the full advantage of aluminium alloys you really need to do stress calculations or else have a very good feel for its strengths and weaknesses. For prototypes or one-offs you're generally better off sticking to steel, as it's more forgiving and the weight penalty actually isn't all that great. CroMo tube from old, decent quality bike frames is hard to beat.

Talking of learning new skills, I'd love to learn how to do panel beating using sandbags and the wheeling machine. It'd be great to be able to create your own body panels. Sadly there's very little in the way of hands-on engineering classes on offer round here, even though it's old shipbuilding country. There's no end of choice if you want to study website creation or yoga or tofu decoration; but getting your hands dirty is seriously out of fashion.
 
Yessir... steel is great, and easy to get. :D

My wedgie car frames are built out of aluminum, and my natural arrogance drives my interest in modding/repairing them myself. :?

Ok, I'm cheap too... I prefer to not pay someone else for things I might be able to do.
 

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Certain things change your life in a big way. Learning to weld is one of those things.

Sometimes, like when I look at all the old car projects waiting for my attention, I wish I'd never learned. But I love being able to make stuff.
 
Malcom pretty well hit the nail on the head. Brazing simply does not have the tensile strength of welding, but in certain circumstances brazing can be plenty strong. Brazing works best with close fit pieces and/or plenty of surface area. Brazing used to be used more often because in a factory circumstance it is faster and looks good. Now with MIG, TIG, and robotics, welding is more common.
Last week I made some of the battery trays for my motorcycle conversion from aluminum. It sure is lighter! I had a buddy weld them up for me. He has a nack for it!
 

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Deafscooter have own Tig, Mig ,Laser, Plasma , Stick Welding Equipment

The Mig Welder is more easier but Spatting to messy on Alum, stainless and steel

The Tig Welder is More good On any metal include Copper, Titanium , Alum , Steel , etc

The Gas Welder is good for Blazing on Light work metal and brass metal, Copper tube

The Plasma Welder is more High temp in fast and melt in small place ( for Motor Shaft modding )

The Laser Welder is Very tiny place to copper and metal inside glass ( include motor building )

The Stick Welder is good for Thick up to 3/4 Inches Steel Requier using 1/4 inches stick Rod )

Deafscooter favor doing "Tig Welder system to do many build off" on many frame work...
 
More explain about equipments ... Welding processes -as they apply to the home Scooter builder...

Okay, great, so what does all this mean to a guy that has a home shop and needs to buy a welding machine?
Well, by knowing something about the different processes, you can better decide which one best suits the application.

GTAW (TIG) is certainly the nicest process there is.

The tight, controlled arc, and purity of the welds makes it ideal in situations where high strength and weld bead appearance are critical.

For chromoly, stainless steel, and aluminum there is nothing better.

TIG works wonders on really thin sheet metal. A highly skilled welder can literally weld razor blades together!

There is a price, however. A professional quality GTAW machine is required to weld anything over 1/8" thick, and this gets expensive. The "entry level" professional quality machines from manufactures like Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart will cost you about $1600. That's a bargain considering what these machines (especially the Lincoln) can do, but that is still expensive enough to make it sting quite a bit. ;)
The other problem is that TIG welding requires a high degree of skill. It is easily the hardest process for the beginner to learn to do well, and the amount of time required to become truly proficient is considerable. Not a big deal for a professional welder, but more than enough to challenge the average home builder.

SMAW (STICK) is the oldest arc welding process, and is still in frequent use. There are situations where STICK is simply the most convenient process. In outdoor envirmoments where gas shielding is not feasible, a flux shielded electrode does the trick. There are a large variety of general purpose and specialty electrodes available, giving the welder the ability to match the filler alloy to the application. In my opinion, STICK is the best welding process to learn first. Learning how to control arc length, manipulation, and travel speed gives one better technique in other processes.

STICK machines are simple, rugged, and offer more "power per dollar spent" than any other machine. For someone on a budget, $300 to $500 will buy a machine that will do just about anything on mild steel or stainless.

The level of skill required to master STICK is moderate, so if you are new to welding and start out learning it first, plan on going through a few pounds of electrodes learning how to run a good bead in different positions.



GMAW (MIG) is the most user-friendly welding process of all. A good MIG machine is all the home builder needs to weld just about anything. High quality 220V machines from manufacturers like Lincoln, Miller, Hobart, and ESAB will absolutely spoil you rotten!

Easy to learn for the beginner.

Versatile and fast, with excellent weld bead appearance.

Using solid wire and shielding gas will make very clean welds with little spatter, and good penetration.

Flux core wire can provide slightly deeper penetration, and can be used in outdoor enviroments where gas shielding is not feasible.

OXY/FUEL welding is definitely a lost art. In the hands of an expert welder, this process can make high quality welds.
The preheating of the base metal caused by the neutral flame allows the weld to cool more slowly, making it tougher.

Mild steel, stainless, chromoly, and aluminum are no problem.

Inital investment can range from low to moderate, depending on the quality of the torch kit. A cheap OXY/FUEL kit can cost as little as $100 on sale at Harbor Freight. A professional quality kit can easily cost as much as $600 at a welding store.
 
More talking about the equipment

• Question:  Which welding process is the best?
• Answer: There is no easy answer to this one. 

• The best welding process for a particular application depends on the alloy being welded, the work environment, the quality of the welding equipment available, productivity requirements, and the skill of the welder.  Simply put, match the tool to the job.  After all, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight!
• Each welding process does more or less the same thing, which is to heat the base metal to a liquid state, shield it from the harmful effects of oxygen, introduce molten filler metal to the base metal while keeping them both hot enough to completely fuse.

• GTAW (TIG) is universally recognized as being the strongest, cleanest process.  A non-consumable tungsten electrode conducts the arc into the work, forming the molten puddle.  Filler metal is manually added by the operator during the weld process.  Argon or Argon/mix gas shields the metal from oxygen and maintains the arc while preventing oxidation of the weld.  TIG can be either DCEP, DCEN, or AC depending on the application.
• For aluminum, AC is used along with high frequency, which removes the oxide coating from the metal and provides a clean weld.  More expensive machines also have the ability to change the waveform of the arc, which alters the oxide cleaning characteristics, puddle formation, and weld bead appearance.
• The GTAW (TIG) process also requires a high degree of skill to master, so be prepared to spend time learning the technique. 
• Level of skill required by the operator: High
• Productivity rate: LOW

• SMAW (STICK): The simplest form of electric arc welding, in which a flux covered electrode conducts the arc into the work, forming the molten puddle.  Filler metal from the electrode is transferred to the work directly from the end of the electrode.  The flux coating on the electrode burns as this occurs, creating a shielding gas which maintains the arc and protects the weld from oxygen, leaving a coating of slag on top of the weld bead as it cools.   Polarity can be AC, DCEP, DCEN.
• Level of skill required by the operator: Moderate
• Productivity rate: MEDIUM

• GMAW (MIG): A semiautomatic process (usually short arc) where the electrode is a continuous wire fed by driven rollers.  The arc is conducted through the wire to the work, forming the molten puddle.  Carbon Dioxide, Argon/Carbon Dioxide, or Argon/Carbon Dioxide/Helium gas shields the metal from oxygen.
• Larger, more expensive machines often have features such as globular transfer mode (spray arc) or "pulsed  MIG" mode. Globular transfer mode, unlike short arc, turns the filler metal into molten particles before they actually hit the molten puddle.
• Pulsed MIG controls the waveform of the arc to allow finer control when welding on thinner metal, and creates a  cleaning effect in aluminum, much like AC TIG.  Polarity is usually DCEP.
• Level of skill required by the operator: Low
• Productivity rate: HIGH

• FCAW (FLUX CORE): The same semi-automatic, wire fed process as MIG, but with hollow wire containing shielding flux.   FCAW can be run with or without a shielding gas, depending on the filler wire used.  FCAW runs hotter, and penetrates about 15% deeper than MIG using solid wire, which means it would not be the first choice for welding thin metal!  Polarity is usually DCEN.
• Level of skill required by the operator: Low
• Productivity rate: HIGH

• OXY/FUEL:  Most commonly oxygen/acetylene, but other fuel gases such as MAPP, Propane, and even Hydrogen are sometimes used.  A neutral flame heats the work, forms the molten puddle, and shields the metal from oxygen.  Filler metal is manually added during the welding process by the operator.  Properly done, this creates an extremely strong weld with no inclusions.  Due to the preheating effect of the flame contact with the metal, the OXY/FUEL process can produce tougher welds than arc welding processes.
•
• Level of skill required by the operator: HIGH
• Productivity rate: LOW

• SAW: (Submerged Arc Welding) Something you won't see in the home shop or garage.  Automatic wire fed machines designed for welding heavy sections of plate or pipe.  A large diameter solid wire electrode conducts the arc into the work, protected from oxygen in the atmosphere by a granular flux which burns and creates it's own inert gas.  Serious welding machines!
• Level of skill required by the operator: LOW
• Productivity rate: HIGH

• LASER WELDING: A process using a laser beam instead of an electric arc to create intense heat in the base metal, forming a molten puddle.  Filler metal is sometimes added to the joint itself, or fed into the puddle with a wire feeder, shielding gas is used to prevent oxidation.

• THERMITE WELDING: I threw this in just because it is so neat!  A mixture of Aluminum Oxide and Iron Oxide powder are placed in a crucible or receptacle over the work and ignited.  The mixture burns with intense heat, fusing the base metal.  A flux of some type is usually included in the mixture to protect the metal from oxidation, depending on the application.

• FORGING:  The first known welding process, if somewhat limited.  Metal is heated to transition temperature in a forced draft furnace and then hammered and folded together repeatedly until the layers are fused.
 
Welding aluminum battery trays... yes. Being able to do that kind of stuff would be great.

That's good concise information, Craig; very nice.

I doubt I'll be making a new career out of it, but it's kinda fun playing with fire. :twisted:

I can see building small EV's & hybrids, doing conversions on sedans, etc. for kicks and some extra bucks.

Of course, keepin the veggie-mobile operating is an ongoing effort. Before I bought my own O/A set, I used the kit at the bicycle co-op to braze a flange to a muffler adapter... no way am I gonna pay four hundred bucks for a muffler, if I can use a torch for 30 minutes. (German engineering wasn't always so great) :p

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:D
 
Lame. I don't have any way to stick two pieces of metal together. Other than a mini oxy-mapp torch. 5500+F, but not very powerful. Haven't actually used it for anything, and the tip is kinda getting jacked up from being outside or something.

Deafscooter said:
After all, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight!

Unless you're a ninja :twisted:!
 
I use this for the crap jobs that don't require the precision of TIG welding. http://www.weldingmart.com/mig_welder/mig_welder_sp-175plus_k1642-3.htm

Cost about $700 ready to run, and does an excellent job for what it is. Just for an experiment, I set it up and had someone who had never welded in his life run some beads on .065 mild steel tube. Aside from a little wandering, he did a good job.

If $700 sounds expensive, there's always stick electrodes and a cheap buzz box which will weld quite nicely with some practice. I keep some 6010 and 7018 rods around the shop... although I'm not exactly sure why. We do 95% TIG, and maybe 5% MIG.
 
Link said:
Lame. I don't have any way to stick two pieces of metal together. Other than a mini oxy-mapp torch.
You need more cashflow to increase the gasflow...

You still got a couple of braincells and a computer... maybe you could generate some revenue by helping members with their websites. Lifebatt's site could use a bit of help, maybe you could get some bucks there... or at least some b-stock cells. 8)
 
I've been welding the old fashioned way with oxy-acetylene for something like 25 years. It's pretty limited in this age of exotic metals, but for good old mild steel and cromoly it's all you need.

Welder (oxy-acetylene) - $30 oxy refill / $30 acetylene refill
Grinder/Cutter (4 1/2") - $30
Drill - $30

...that's pretty much my entire toolbox.

I've had to do about three refills over the last two years.

($30 + $30 = $60 * 3 = $180 :shock: )
 
TylerDurden said:
What capacity tanks?
Somehow over the years I got a smaller acetylene tank than what would normally go with an oxygen tank, so I was actually going about three to one with the acetylene until I finally got the guy to give me a break and (in secret) switch to a larger one. Now it should require fewer fillings because the capacity is much larger. They are both about 4-5 feet tall now, I'm not sure of the capacity rating.

So it was more like:

:arrow: Acetylene - $30, $30, $30, $30, $30, $30

:arrow: Oxygen - $30, $30

...or something that.

Seems that refilling a big bottle is about the same price as refilling the small one, so getting that switch will help to get the price down. I didn't realize I was going to dedicate myself to so much framebuilding in the beginning, so I wasn't expecting to get into it this much. Had I gotten the switch done two years ago I could have saved about $100.

MIG and TIG also require some type of gas or you end up spending money on some pretty expensive specialized welding rod. (the rod evaporates and produces the protective gas while you weld) Either way you have to expect that welding is not free and you have to pay something for it.

:arrow: It's still fairly cheap in the big picture...

However, I suspect that the arc welding styles are likely cheaper, but then you also don't have the freedom that oxy-acetylene can give. With oxy-acetylene you can also heat up the metal and bend it and you can cut metal by just heating it. You have more degrees of freedom with oxy-acetylene.
 
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