Fresh i hope. Off grid ebike touring, wind recharge. ~0 kg.

C

cycleops612

10 kW
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
585
Location
Sydney Australia, Me: 70kg/154lb. 350w, 22kg ex ba
Clearly, solar is too; weak, bulky & heavy for general off grid ebiking at this time.

you can get an idea of whats commercially doable here, but am v skeptical of claimed power & odds of good sun when riding.

http://www.ridethesolarwind.be/en/product.php

If, as one does, you make camp at sundown, well oriented panels dont help.

Wind power, however, is concentrated solar when it blows.

Should work. Discuss, & somebody start making them :) Great for 3rd world.

Very roughly, E.G.:

A rear hub drive bike w/ regen.

Hang bike from a high ~lateral tree branch (or a high line between 2 trees) by rope/strap to e.g. the front rim, so bike is suspended in clear space & can ~swivel (as wind gens do).

Maybe guy/ballast it a bit for orientation/stability. If wind changes radically (an alarm?), may have to manually adjust orientation a bit.

Contrive:

A vane for orienting the suspended bike to the wind

Apt size sails/spinnakers for the pedals using light nylon cloth & cord, & obviously, sufficient anti snagging measures on the bike, again light nylon cloth - a bike stocking?

Maybe the sails need keeping away from the bike a bit? (or vs versa, swivel handle bars a bit?) Some light, bolt on, pedal extension/rigging? Possibly just shaping sails right.

In a suitable derailleur gear, the fill/flap/fill/flap action on the cloth sails/spinnakers/kites), turns the chain & the motor regens that force to the battery as charge.

I suspect a problem w/ the pedals being opposite one another on the crank. - lateral rocking.

As far as I can tell, moving one pedal 180 degrees on the crank quickly doent look hard.

So, perhaps this rocking could be moderated, if one pedal arm were moved 180 deg. on the crank, so both sails pull together, rather than alternately.

I dont see a forward/backward rocking in line with the wind as a problem.

An issue is, regen often? has no BMS ability?

A normal .2c domestic charger for a 500wh battery is charging at 100w. This rig may well approach or better this. Its limited only by wind and sail area.
Recharging 1kwh or more reliably overnight in some areas seems very possible.

Curiously, the usual limit to effective pedaling does not apply. Wind resistance.

It sounds noisy tho. If it flaps, it sounds some springing like ~elastic sail ropes may help.

Improvisation that uses dual purpose bits from existing touring kit is good. Flagpole e.g.?

In short, in a breeze, u can; recharge as u camp, using a; substantial, free, 100% clean; ~no weight ,source.

It seems a natural fit to use the mechanism you already have, as a wind generator. Make your pedals a wind turbine?

great control over gearing to the breeze strength, and even cool instrumentation - speedo/motor rpm/charge level etc?

If you are doing touring right, "meh, the wind may blow tomorrow". I will explore here today. :)

If it doesnt weigh anything, its a no brainer to have along as an option, along with mooching use of a wall socket to charge.

less need to drain batteries for onite campsite use, and times of plenty of campsite power spare.

Maybe a fast charge during lunch if breezy? with the right tree branch, it could take under 10 minutes to set up.

A good fit is remote mountain touring. Need plenty of power, have regen anyway and have plenty of wind.
 
Several here, and many more in a race in Europe, have proven that the new generation of light, flexible solar panels do work. You are wrong in your first assumption.

100-200w of panel will run a bike. Carrying it means a trailer, or perhaps the best approach, as the roof shade on a tadpole trike.

Obviously,, you don't do as one does, and camp only in the evening. You camp from 10 am to 2 pm,, Then ride in such a way as to not discharge the main battery you just charged, saving that for the main push of the day, before 10 am. The solar can still keep you going, on a much smaller battery you ride till empty in the pm. Then when it's empty, you either push on pure pedal, or camp, or find a plug.

No, you won't gain 2000wh a day with a 100w panel. But if nowhere near plugs, you can still do a few hours a day progress on 500wh. Use the motor more for uphill assist, pedaling the flat.

I like the idea of 100w always in the sun, and perhaps another 100 that can fold out during that noon break. Then you can gather at least 800wh a day. Do your main riding before 9 am, if it's possible to fill again in the late afternoon.
 
dogman dan said:
Several here, and many more in a race in Europe, have proven that the new generation of light, flexible solar panels do work. You are wrong in your first assumption.

100-200w of panel will run a bike. Carrying it means a trailer, or perhaps the best approach, as the roof shade on a tadpole trike.

Obviously,, you don't do as one does, and camp only in the evening. You camp from 10 am to 2 pm,, Then ride in such a way as to not discharge the main battery you just charged, saving that for the main push of the day, before 10 am. The solar can still keep you going, on a much smaller battery you ride till empty in the pm. Then when it's empty, you either push on pure pedal, or camp, or find a plug.

No, you won't gain 2000wh a day with a 100w panel. But if nowhere near plugs, you can still do a few hours a day progress on 500wh. Use the motor more for uphill assist, pedaling the flat.

I like the idea of 100w always in the sun, and perhaps another 100 that can fold out during that noon break. Then you can gather at least 800wh a day. Do your main riding before 9 am, if it's possible to fill again in the late afternoon.
Click to expand...

OK. I conceded indirectly i dont know current numbers, but surely the link i gave do, & they needed 3 panels (impossible on the move) to get anywhere near "200w".

From what i hear, even ideally located in say 35 deg latitude & stationary, a "250w" rated panel nets out to an av of 800w pa. pd. So a vague number like 1-200w mobile fixed orientation, panel is nothing like 800w per day, even if u camp and attend to it all day.

Trikes and trailer, perhaps w/ 2 cutting edge panels, but they not for most. What bikes do not have, is mounting space, and they hate wind catching panels.

Camping hours ought be civilised where i come from. Screw the bike. What about my needs and wants? :)

I hear you on lightweight (no numbers quoted tho), but was shocked that rooftop panels are 25kg. Hardly suit a mobile powerful app.

2-250w would probably do many with a night charge also. But am skeptical even the best would do this really, esp. in US or EU latitudes. Winter, forgeddaboutit.

Hang in there. The debate (any sailors or aero engineers out there?) may pan out to make it look like this system will equate to almost fast charge amps, with the right charging/sail rig and climate. If it pans out that recharging a big heavy battery onite (like 1kwh/10kg~), many may prefer this to panels for self sufficiency. No harm having an option.

A normal charge rate is .2c as thats all the battery makers usually permit for sub 500wh non lipoS, so right there, even on a wall socket, u need 5 hrs charging for 1 hour of battery use at 1c. An hour of STATIONARY sun at 100w () is 12 minute of 1c (500w throttle) riding. You would need a lot of breaks & get nothing during sleep time at night.
 
In addition to the mobile solar of 100-200w, what about wind too?

I picture a small vane and turbine/motor to pickup tailwinds and crosswinds (locked out from headwinds when rolling- use regen for that on braking/downhill only). Then when parked you're setup to catch any wind from any direction too.

Maybe good for another 100-200w? Might not consistently supply as much as similar sized solar system, but conditions vary. If nothing else it might be a good suppliment.
 
nutspecial said:
In addition to the mobile solar of 100-200w, what about wind too?

I picture a small vane and turbine/motor to pickup tailwinds and crosswinds (locked out from headwinds when rolling- use regen for that on braking/downhill only). Then when parked you're setup to catch any wind from any direction too.

Maybe good for another 100-200w? Might not consistently supply as much as similar sized solar system, but conditions vary. If nothing else it might be a good suppliment.
Click to expand...

yeah,i buy that. A little turbine you rig when parked or tail/crosswinds. It all helps and batteries i suspect, love a trickle charge to keep the chemicals ticking over.

Again, wind is concentrated solar, and solar is too weak for most ebikes needs and panel space.

A natty fact is riders are often beside busy roads, being buffeted in the wake of trucks zooming by etc. Why not freeload on the bastards. Harness those blasts of air, even just parked close to road or on a freeway overpass.

A key to my points is using the generator already in many ebikes - regen. The copper etc. for a second generator is a substantial weight. A second wind turbine which rotated the hub wheel would be more consistent with that.

I have an idea for a light efficient wind generator, but another post sometime maybe.

Oh well, it involves how the trailing edge of a boats sail always flaps/vibrates, and it varies with tension on the sail. Its clearly powerful from the noise the vibration can create.

A strip of cloth with wires/magnets in the trailing edge, could be suspended in a way that the trailing edge, vibrates magnets in an electrical field, and thus making power.
 
I really like the idea of PV on a trike. I have to wonder though: Unless it is integrated into an efficient fairing, I suspect the added aero drag will offset the power added at anything over 10-12 mph. Especially if the PV power is going to charge the battery, rather than directly into the motor.
 
Warren said:
I really like the idea of PV on a trike. I have to wonder though: Unless it is integrated into an efficient fairing, I suspect the added aero drag will offset the power added at anything over 10-12 mph. Especially if the PV power is going to charge the battery, rather than directly into the motor.
Click to expand...

Yes, i do wonder about that. Generating 200w and storing it may be very different. What losses can be expected. Can those losses be avoided by bypassing the lossy charging circuit, and power fed direct to motor in a normal ebike controller context? While this favours the PVs power during motion more, their general weakness is inescapable.

A trike and a trailer 2-3 classy panels may well form the basis of a self fueling 25kph/15mph all day personal vehicle. Above that, each 5kph adds 100w to the power drain on a racing bike (25kph is 100w (on proposed trike & trailer, 200w at least methinks), so power drain doubles in that racing bike context).

So yeah, dont get u hopes up too much about getting much more than 15mph in still air if u r counting the watts when touring,, but thats OK. Best to use scarce, reserve, battery watts to turbo power up hills at 15mph, which is fast, relatively. That power at least gains you altitude momentum, wind friction is just wasted completely.
 
dogman dan said:
Several here, and many more in a race in Europe, have proven that the new generation of light, flexible solar panels do work. You are wrong in your first assumption.

100-200w of panel will run a bike. Carrying it means a trailer, or perhaps the best approach, as the roof shade on a tadpole trike.

Obviously,, you don't do as one does, and camp only in the evening. You camp from 10 am to 2 pm,, Then ride in such a way as to not discharge the main battery you just charged, saving that for the main push of the day, before 10 am. The solar can still keep you going, on a much smaller battery you ride till empty in the pm. Then when it's empty, you either push on pure pedal, or camp, or find a plug.

No, you won't gain 2000wh a day with a 100w panel. But if nowhere near plugs, you can still do a few hours a day progress on 500wh. Use the motor more for uphill assist, pedaling the flat.

I like the idea of 100w always in the sun, and perhaps another 100 that can fold out during that noon break. Then you can gather at least 800wh a day. Do your main riding before 9 am, if it's possible to fill again in the late afternoon.
Click to expand...

Clearly the PV concept is doable, see that Oz solar car race, but much relies on roof/panel area. If u r ok with trikes and trailers, maybe roadworthy mainstream.

A bike with panels over the rider like a shade, also perhaps.

But the convention for most here is for big battery and lottsa power. The wind method may allow that off grid instead. An alternative.

There is no best in bikes. All needs are different.

An afterthought is a 3rd world family can have both electricity generation for home, and transport as well, from the one purchase (maybe 2 batteries).
 
Re aero drag on a trike with a roof. Bear in mind, you don't plan to travel ebike speed with such a rig. But if you are traveling sub 15 mph, then aero drag on a day with minimal wind will not be more than the loss.

And, such rigs tend to be where having that shade as you ride could be a life or death deal. Or at least, worth it.
 
True dogman. In a desert I would contrive some shade anyhoo.

Also true re the magic 15 mph speed in still air -25kph.

A 5kph headwind costs 100w tho, even on a racing bike.

If its blowing hard against you from ~120 degrees of the compass, may as well make camp. The good news is with my system, you can pump some serious squirt into a 1kw battery while chilling.

I remain unconvinced that a good sailor and cyclist couldnt sail a bike (w/ regen possibilities) similarly to a skiff in, e.g., outback oz.

They hang over the side (as we sorta do cornering a bike) on a reach (sailing across the face of a side wind, using a keel/fin i.e. wheel/tyre, for grip on the surface), working the tiller using an extension arm. Its little different in principle, except confined to the road usually & the steering tiller (which = handle bars) are at the front (which isnt written in stone).

Local winds often operate to a timetable - onshore mornings, offshore evenings etc. Some commutes could have good wind both ways. The ancients used that a lot. The seasonal monsoon following trade routes of the arabs and indians, the Nile, the Med.
 
Interesting you mention sailing your e bike. I've done it.

Had a cargo bike with panniers so huge and flat, with the right tack you could see it make the watts drop on the CA by about 50w. Took that perfect angle to the wind to make it work, so for about 20 miles of flat riding I was tacking across the lane just pedaling, then gunning it back across the land to pick the speed back up.

Not jibing, just doing the old pick up speed, then coast it upwind a bit farther thing. How you get home on a windsurfer when the big wind blew you across the lake. Couldn't milk it that much though, because I'd run out of pavement and have to turn a bit more downwind to get back to the other side of the road. It did get me home about 5 ah less used than I had predicted.

Only once, on that one ride has the road angled into the wind that perfect, otherwise the bike was nothing but drag.
 
dogman dan said:
Interesting you mention sailing your e bike. I've done it.

Had a cargo bike with panniers so huge and flat, with the right tack you could see it make the watts drop on the CA by about 50w. Took that perfect angle to the wind to make it work, so for about 20 miles of flat riding I was tacking across the lane just pedaling, then gunning it back across the land to pick the speed back up.

Not jibing, just doing the old pick up speed, then coast it upwind a bit farther thing. How you get home on a windsurfer when the big wind blew you across the lake. Couldn't milk it that much though, because I'd run out of pavement and have to turn a bit more downwind to get back to the other side of the road. It did get me home about 5 ah less used than I had predicted.

Only once, on that one ride has the road angled into the wind that perfect, otherwise the bike was nothing but drag.
Click to expand...

Cool.

To be clear for folks tho, a little adjustable sail on the boat is a way different concept. A sailor can be flexible about his course in a given wind.

Tricycle racers on salt/claypan flats, & of course ice sailing (huge speeds i hear - sounds exciting), are old sports.

just sayin, if u can windsurf, u can wind cycle. Physics are the same. Its just the large skill component & traffic/danger/narrow roads that differ.


I think u meant tack not jibe (very bad), but maybe w/ 6 lanes at 3am u could :)?

Have u seen kite surfing? A spinaker on a board, awesome, close to human flight, they just do occasional skips on the water surface.
 
I was tacking,, no way I could jibe on just two lanes. besides, going back wouldn't have gotten me across a 50 mile desert.

Really, I just sailed one tack. Then turned to a less upwind tack slightly, hit the throttle on the downwind, then resumed the same tack to gain 50 w for about 30 seconds. Definitely had to watch for traffic before I headed up wind.

A tail wind on that bike was always a joy, of course. any bike, any vehicle benefits when it can beat downwind. I'm sure you have done the open your coat trick.

I can just see the learning curve on kite sailing a bicycle. Better be a badass kite surfer before you try it.
 
I have a ScanGauge in my Toyota Yaris, and it gives real time accurate fuel consumption. I have noticed a phenomenon that could only be called "tacking." In a cross wind of a certain direction, the mileage goes up to a level that it usually doesn't. This is with no tail wind component.
 
craneplaneguy said:
I have a ScanGauge in my Toyota Yaris, and it gives real time accurate fuel consumption. I have noticed a phenomenon that could only be called "tacking." In a cross wind of a certain direction, the mileage goes up to a level that it usually doesn't. This is with no tail wind component.
Click to expand...

isnt that cool. we live in an age where such a hunch is actually verifiable.
 
Cycleops, do you think there's a way to attach plastic blades to the wheel spokes? I guess It/they should be easily removable for when in motion, but it sounds like what you're after for jacking up the driven wheel or suspending the whole bike to follow wind and catch it, when parked. I just can't think of a unit that would easily be installed/removed. Maybe a 2 or 3 piece, to form the 24" dia, and the depth could be as much as the frame allows.

The idea of making electricity from a flapping sail or cloth is interesting also. Hopefully we get to see what you end up playing around with!

Spinning magnets has a thread on rube goldberg contraptions, but I can't say I've ever seem one specifically for an ebike. That would be really cool, but the opposite of what you're after, of course. But if anyone ever tries to make one I'd like to see a toaster or blender or something worked in to it, and maybe a hairdryer?
 
blades mounted in the wheel? you would need a REALLY strong wind to make the wheel turn. and a critical fact is missing: wind turbines can move with the wind. they always turn into the best position. so you may need to mount the bike on a pole. lifting it up on a rope between trees seems very unpractible for short breaks. ;)
 
Seems to me the idea that's proven to work, 100-200w of light flexy solar panel.

Sure, gathering only 50w on the fly sounds puny, but over 6 hours that's still 250wh farther down the road.
 
I have charged my bike @ over 300w with a kite system.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/WYl-Y2791l4[/youtube]
Used the power to ride over 100 kite miles worth and make a few cups of tea.
I'm developing the tech further to make a product out of it.
It's an open project. join in.
 
now that's cool. unfortunately i've NEVER seen a constant wind like that around here for my whole live. here we've only got flurries.
and funny hear you say: "... quite some houses around ..." *lol*. for a city dweller/dude like me you're in the middle of nowhere ;)
btw: for a youtube video to show up inline directly in the post, you just put the number/letter code at the end of the link (in your case WYl-Y2791l4) inside the youtube-[]
 
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