Front hub shudder/shake video 4 diagnosis

K

Kenny'sID

100 W
Joined
Jun 11, 2016
Messages
141
First cheap kit I got from ebay worked fine and I guess these are no name kits so I'll describe them FWIW as the first has the Chrome circles on the motor, the second was all black and 10$ less than the fist when I went to buy another for a trike I'm doing. The all black kit didn't work at all, the seller sent another and the video shows what I'm dealing with on the replacement.

The bike will take off if I'm sitting on it, and though I haven't taken it out for a test drive, the few feet I can go indoors, it seems to smooth out once it leaves a standstill. It runs smoothly and speeds up gradually as I turn the throttle just as it should IF the wheel is off the ground but under load from stand still...well you can see for yourself. Both motors actually work with the second controller and things are such a mess now not sure if I'll be able to return them, end up with 2 motors and a refund or motors and no refund.

At any rate, I need to figure out what the problem is, and I do have a new cheapo controller coming that I ended up ordering for whatever reason so will be able to try that eventually. They are 1000W kits and thanks for any input.

Hopefully this photobucket video link works:

http://s3.photobucket.com/user/PlantsPics/media/Album%201/second%20bad%20kit%20demo_zpsesi2qbok.mp4.html
 
Thanks Gogo, I'll take a close look at that, see what the seller wants to do, and if it comes down to it, get a lower amperage fuse and get busy. I guess I assumed the manufacturers wiring should be right, but on hindsight, the motor rotated in reverse and I had to turn the wheel around so that's proof, proper wiring isn't necessarily a given..I did follow the books directions for wiring.

I'll take it the motor acting the way it is, is indicative to Hall Sensor issues, or most likely anyway...correct? I was tending in that direction too.
 
Looks more like a battery problem to me. I think I noticed the green battery light going out every time you twisted the throttle. Hard to tell since the video sucks, but that's an indication of a poor power connection. Maybe a bad fuse connection or bad connector somewhere in the power lines. I can simulate the exact same thing by hooking my battery up only through the precharge resistor and make it click all day long and not go anywhere. And if both kits do the exact same thing...
 
The few power connections I had to make are all soldered but could be there is a problem elsewhere.

Would I just test for voltage beyond the fuse? Not much good with a millimeter but have one and can do that no problem.
 
Measure voltage at the controller input leads and see if it's dropping a large amount when you twist the throttle. If you have a glass fuse and holder, they really suck about bad connections, Try bypassing it and see if that cures the problem. I replaced the one that came with my kit with a blade type 40A fuse and never had a problem after that.
 
Kenny'sID said:
Both motors actually work with the second controller
Click to expand...

This is what makes me think there is no problem with the halls and probably not with the connectors, either. Two motors known to work fine with one controller, and neither work with second controller. Its easy to check for proper connection sequence, and you'll probably have to go through the same diagnostic with the 3rd controller you bought, too.
 
Kenny'sID said:
Both motors actually work with the second controller
Click to expand...
I missed this. That would point to a bad controller then.
 
Sorry, I was unclear with what I said about the motors working with the second controller. The first controller was bad so never really had a chance to use any controller but the second one, so the second was essentially the only one I used and there really was not second.

And by working, I should also have made clear that they do run, but both have the same issue as in the video.

I checked all connections and they are tight. I do have the glass fuse, however I pulled it from my first build so I could use the wiring/plug attached to it and the other build works flawlessly indicating the fuse is not necessarily, but most likely not a problem.

I'm still working with the seller and have yet to do a voltage drop test.

A question...This one acts no differently one way or the other, but say everything was working properly and one unplugged the Hal Sensors, how would a normal running bike react to that? Would it run at all? run badly?

Thanks for all the help
 
Well, the seller refunded me the $180 and didn't require a return... makes me wonder too, either the kits are dirt cheap to him or they are known to have problems and getting them back didn't justify him paying shipping costs, or it could be he just wanted the neg FB removed, who knows. So I have 2 full kits now, neither work right but the motors do spin and got nothing into them but time and aggravation. So guess I'll add a little more time and aggravation to earn them if that's even possible.

Bypassed the fuse to be sure, still the same issue, and did the voltage drop test, and it only dropped 2V at the very most. Before I pull the kit from the mountain bike and put it on the trike, think I'll take the trike out for an actual drive first so I'll know how it acts at higher speeds. If it just shakes a little at take off, then smooths out, I guess I could run it that way, but I still wouldn't know if that shake is a sign it may be undependable....any thoughts on that? And all I'm asking is educated guesses really.

I just checked the colors of the Hall sensor wires on both the male and female of the connectors and the colors all match up, but I take it that doesn't mean a whole lot and I still need to run the tests suggested if I should decide to go that route?
 
As mentioned 4-5 days ago you need to determine and wire the correct Phase power - Hall sensor combination as shown here:

https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Determining_the_Wiring_for_a_Brushless_Motor

Wire color coding means absolutely nothing with these systems. It's all about the "correct" timing combination.
 
I just am getting serious about fixing the issue. I already had too much time into it and figured if the guy would take it back, I'd rather not spend any more time on it. IOW, not what I bargained for...purchase price and all the extra time labor, and the reason I held off on all tests.

Wire color coding means absolutely nothing with these systems. It's all about the "correct" timing combination.

OK, still not up on exactly what Hall sensors do, I guess I figured if it was wired wrong and the color codes didn't match, that could cause the problem...evidently not.
 
Kenny'sID said:
I just am getting serious about fixing the issue. I already had too much time into it and figured if the guy would take it back, I'd rather not spend any more time on it. IOW, not what I bargained for...purchase price and all the extra time labor, and the reason I held off on all tests.

Wire color coding means absolutely nothing with these systems. It's all about the "correct" timing combination.

OK, still not up on exactly what Hall sensors do, I guess I figured if it was wired wrong and the color codes didn't match, that could cause the problem...evidently not.
Click to expand...

Hall sensors basically time the motor phase power commutation to the controller “firing order”. When they’re not in time, you get symptoms as your video indicates.

Now, we’re not 100% certain you’ve got a wrong combination - the controller could have a problem and/or the Hall sensors could have a problem. But the 1st place to start is with the link provided (twice) and for further troubleshooting these links should provide the info required to determine Hall sensor and controller operation:

http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/troubleshooting.html

Whatever you do don't appply WOT (wide open throttle) until you find a smooth and relatively quiet motor rotation. This can blow MOSFETs inside the controller.
 
OK, thanks, Ykick...that helps.

The tests are a bit mind blowing to me but once I get into it, maybe it'll be more clear.

That said, I do have a problem/question right off the bat. I go here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w8mTX5H5K8VJ8s12ECVcKFJLNEsTCLT4hHwfXD44y-s/edit?pli=1

scroll down to where it says:

So you have your motor and controller and all you have tried so far has failed. What to do.

It also states the test is done with the wheel off the ground, goes on to change a few wires and then gives the 4 possible results for the first changed wires...number one being Smooth rotation in correct direction.stop now..this is job done.

I already have that. My problem is when the wheel is on the ground under load, when off the ground it works perfectly. So, this one has me confused as it would indicate just from that anyway I don't have a problem with the Hall sensors, but need to get opinions from you all before I continue.

My first thought would be if I ignore that and continue with the test, I'd have to put it on the ground each time to get results of changes so not sure what to think of that..a hassle but one I may have to deal with or is it time to head in a different direction?
 
Hall sensors basically time the motor phase power commutation to the controller “firing order”. When they’re not in time, you get symptoms as your video indicates.

Then somewhat like the timing in an automobile and instead of power being regulated by constant connection of brushes it's done by, I guess timed switches? So we are basically working with an electronic ignition like took place of the points in a car as well as a brush-less configuration in the motor where the power is shot to the separate coils at the right time?
 
Kenny'sID said:
Hall sensors basically time the motor phase power commutation to the controller “firing order”. When they’re not in time, you get symptoms as your video indicates.

Then somewhat like the timing in an automobile and instead of power being regulated by constant connection of brushes it's done by, I guess timed switches? So we are basically working with an electronic ignition like took place of the points in a car as well as a brush-less configuration in the motor where the power is shot to the separate coils at the right time?
Click to expand...

Very much like the automotive "distributor" so to speak. Motor Hall sensors are simply ON/Off switches at certain point in motor rotation. 3 phases.

Do you have experience with correctly timed BLDC ebike motors? If not, you shouldn't assume you've "got it" because there's some combinations which to an inexperienced person, might not seem wrong while spinning in free air.
 
I got no experience at all. I can't assume I got it because something is still not working properly...just needed to know if the real issue I seem to ave run across in the fix is an issue or not. If no one knows, I could just proceed in spite of the instructions indication all is well.
 
I took it for a test run and something's not right. Still might be the timings, but though it did smooth out after initial take off under load and was fine at high speeds, the indicator lights were acting funny as was already mentioned here but worse. Went all the way down to empty at less than a quarter mile, even with better than 50v still in the battery. Plus when I got back and drove up a very slight hill to my house, it wouldn't make it an that should not have been a problem at all, so definitely something going on with the power. The lights came back up to full after it was stopped but something is eating up the power. I suppose even bad timing could do that.

Anyway, I've decided since I need this trike for transportation, plus the fact the 2 wheel bike has a front wheel kit on it, something I regretted, I'll just take the kit off the 2 wheeler put it on the trike and get a rear wheel kit for the two wheeler later if I can't get one of these bad kits going. That will solve 2 problems and get me going now. Before I do a full change over, I'll try the controller from the two wheeler on the trike if it looks like I can do that without a problem, just to rule that out or maybe even fix the whole problem.

I'll update soon.
 
Did you get the motor quit its shudder/shake when the wheel was off the ground and just spinning with no load?

If you try any other controller, you need to go through the test with it before applying full throttle or putting a load on the wheel.

You seem to have low inclination for DIY testing, so you may want to consider one of these:
Subject: Ebike motor/controller hall/phase/throttle tester $29
 
It never had the shake when off the ground or no load, only when under load. Now it has no shake on or off the ground.

Normally when I get into the testing phase I figure it out and it's not nearly as tough as it seemed but I might look into a tester just the same....thanks
 
Oops, Guess I didn't enter a post I thought I had or it disappeared. I tried the other controller, all fit but the brake connections and throttle so took the throttle and controller both from the two wheeler I was afraid to try before because I didn't want his kit to ruin my controller or my controller to ruin his kit an me not be able to get a refund. Anyway it worked and at least at this point seems to have solved the whole problem so, bad controller. runs strong and no shake at all like before.
 
Guess this is the same tester?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-36V-48V-60V-Electro-Car-E-bike-Scooter-Brushless-Motor-Controller-Tester-/251881732884?hash=item3aa5523b14:g:5bIAAOSwPhdVBsQC
 
Kenny'sID said:
Oops, Guess I didn't enter a post I thought I had or it disappeared. I tried the other controller, all fit but the brake connections and throttle so took the throttle and controller both from the two wheeler I was afraid to try before because I didn't want his kit to ruin my controller or my controller to ruin his kit an me not be able to get a refund. Anyway it worked and at least at this point seems to have solved the whole problem so, bad controller. runs strong and no shake at all like before.
Click to expand...
Progress! You know that the motor and its hall sensors are ok.

So, you have two controllers from the vendor's "all-black" kits and when you hook them up according to color, one of them shudder/shakes and the other doesn't work at all?

Kenny'sID said:
Guess this is the same tester?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-36V-48V-60V-Electro-Car-E-bike-Scooter-Brushless-Motor-Controller-Tester-/251881732884?hash=item3aa5523b14:g:5bIAAOSwPhdVBsQC
Click to expand...
Yes. It will be a good investment for sorting out your controllers and for future problem diagnosis.
 
So, you have two controllers from the vendor's "all-black" kits and when you hook them up according to color, one of them shudder/shakes and the other doesn't work at all?

Precisely.

And FWIW, when I moved the bike to a small hall prior to taking it out for the road test, I lifted the wheel for one more test and smelled something when I ran it. I brushed it off as something in the motor just breaking in because it was slight and no components felt hot, but now I think it was the controller. I don't think i smelled it before because it was in a much larger room and not concentrated in the small hall.

On the tester, at that price, probably a real good investment for me, especially with this situation.
 
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