Haibike Yamaha Drive vs Bafang

[JRL580]

Hi everyone. The ebike world is totally new to me and I have been doing a ton of research and reading on the forums. The amount of information here is awesome.

I think I've got my bike selection narrowed down to a couple options but I have some questions I'm hoping someone can help me answer. I'm mainly going to be using the bike for commuting to work and pulling my kids around in the chariot bike trailer. My commute is roughly 13 miles one way, mostly flat with a couple hills. I'm looking to get a hardtail mountain bike because I also want the versatility of being able to take it off road occasionally. I also like the comfort of the bigger tires on the road, especially since the bike is going to have a motor, I'm obviously not too worried about rolling resistance. I like the low end torque of the mid drive motors.

I test rode a Haibike Sduro RC the other day with the yamaha drive and I was very impressed. I loved the torque sensing motor and how smoothly it applied the power when needed. It was incredibly easy to sustain 20MPH in the two highest assist settings. However, that was the one thing I did not like was that it was limited to 20MPH. My commute is mainly on back rural roads with little to no traffic so a little extra speed would be nice. I know there are simple mods you can do to remove the speed limit from these and that brings me to my first question. Does anyone have any experience with what type of realistic speed can me maintained with the speed limit removed? I'm hoping for 25 - 30 MPH, does that sound realistic?
The main thing I liked about the bike was that I still felt like I was riding a bike and getting some exercise. I wasn't just hitting a throttle and riding a "moped".

If I go with a diy with a bafang motor, I realize I will have a ton more power, and a throttle. My main concern is the feel. Since it is not a torque sensing motor, is the power still applied smoothly? Can I still get a decent workout pedaling even in an assisted mode? I know they like to turn at high RPM's, so do you always have to be in a gear where your pedaling at a unrealistic cadence?

I guess I'm torn between wanting more power when needed, but I don't want to lose too much of the "bike" feel and turn it into just basically riding a moped. I don't have anywhere around here to test ride a Bafang so I'm just looking for other's advice who have maybe ridden both. Thanks for any input you may have.

 

[Jon NCal]

A couple of things to consider: the Bafang may require a bit of maintenance/servicing/repair, so you should be comfortable doing that; the Yamaha warranty will be voided if 20mph speed restriction is removed.

 

[Lurkin]

Depends what Bafang unit you intend on buying as to what power it will have.... the 250w unit isn't really any more powerful and you definitely aren't losing the bike feel.

Does feel different though.. increased weight, noting when PAS kicks in or not etc.

Best thing you can do is test rides....

 

[Overclocker]

bafang bbs02 has no torque sensor so the assist it gives isn't dynamic, it's fixed whether you're going uphill or downhill. so be prepared to be scrolling up and down the PAS levels via the keypad. if terrain is flat then you probably won't have to scroll too much...

my 48v bbs02 has a high pedal cadence, way too fast for human legs at full-throttle. at lower PAS levels the motor is forced to operate at lower RPM to give the rider a comfortable cadence, which means the motor wouldn't be operating at good efficiency. so it doesn't give you that perfect synergy of man and machine

 

[JRL580]

A couple of things to consider: the Bafang may require a bit of maintenance/servicing/repair, so you should be comfortable doing that; the Yamaha warranty will be voided if 20mph speed restriction is removed.

I'm not too worried about maintenance. I've worked on bikes enough in the past and have most bike tools. I've built a couple complete bikes, but it has been awhile. Some of the new stuff is a little different but I'm sure I can figure it out. The warranty is something to think about though, like you mentioned.

bafang bbs02 has no torque sensor so the assist it gives isn't dynamic, it's fixed whether you're going uphill or downhill. so be prepared to be scrolling up and down the PAS levels via the keypad. if terrain is flat then you probably won't have to scroll too much...

my 48v bbs02 has a high pedal cadence, way too fast for human legs at full-throttle. at lower PAS levels the motor is forced to operate at lower RPM to give the rider a comfortable cadence, which means the motor wouldn't be operating at good efficiency. so it doesn't give you that perfect synergy of man and machine

You have the same setup I was considering. Either the standard 750W or the programmed 1200W version. The PAS levels is what I'm most concerned about. I think I still want to be able to have some pedaling input most of the time and not just feel like I"m spinning my legs and can't keep up with the motor. I realize this probably isn't realistic on the higher levels and I'm ok with that. There will be times I'm sure where the pure speed will come in handy and not worry about pedaling. I'm going to keep looking around and see if I can find one to test ride. Thanks for the input so far. If anyone else has any experience with both, let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[drew12345]

Good question. You might want to try pedelec forum to get more feedback.

 

[Green Machine]

This is an easy question and i will answer honestly.

The yamaha is like wearing a condom compared to the BBSHD. The yamaha is more refined.

Go test ride both...i think after riding a bbshd for a while it would be hard to settle on a yamaha.

A bafang is big and nasty and has massive power....the yamaha is just a refined experience at a 4th of the wattage.

 

[JRL580]

This is an easy question and i will answer honestly.

The yamaha is like wearing a condom compared to the BBSHD. The yamaha is more refined.

Go test ride both...i think after riding a bbshd for a while it would be hard to settle on a yamaha.

A bafang is big and nasty and has massive power....the yamaha is just a refined experience at a 4th of the wattage.

I'd love to test drive one, but that's the problem. I can't find one anywhere around here to try. There's only a couple stores around me that carry any ebikes at all, and they are all lower power mid drives or hub drives. I'm going to keep looking, or I may just go for it and start buying parts to build one.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how fast the yamaha drive may be capable of with the limit removed? The Haibike I rode, it seemed very easy to maintain the 20MPH max in the two highest assist modes. I think if I knew I'd be able to maintain around 28MPH or so without crazy hard pedaling it might make my decision a little easier.

 

[LockH]

Hi JRL580. One thing about higher wattages/power? More energy consumption from the batteries. So, more frequent recharges or shorter distances... or a bigger battery (Shudder... means more weight/energy to consume at startups and up hills, etc.) Did we tap yet about which chemistry of battery to use? A few choices there, with pros and cons... but the world is going lithium-flavoured at least.

Congrats BTW on checking out electric traction! (Less poop produced per mile!) Seek out local chapter of EA - Ebikers Anonymous. We're all horrible failures at quitting but the parties are great!

Cheers
L

 

[thowaa]

... My main concern is the feel. Since it is not a torque sensing motor, is the power still applied smoothly? ...

Check this thread about the TSDZ2: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788

 

[JRL580]

Thanks, that motor sounds interesting too. I knew this would be a bad idea building an ebike....like every other hobby of mine it spirals out of control quickly. Now I already want about three different ebikes and I don't even own one yet. Ha.

 

[LockH]

Thanks, that motor sounds interesting too. I knew this would be a bad idea building an ebike....

Au Contraire, mon ami? One thing you get out of DIY, is a detailed knowledge of the parts and how they work... or don't work... together? And ya have the tools and knowledge to fix "stuff" later? Upgrades, etc?

One "problem" these daze is that manufacturers of all shapes and sizes are climbing aboard the Ebike Train (steamroller) where when they do have higher unit productions can spread many costs such that per unit costs (and selling prices) start to lower?

... and add to this competition from other sources putting more downward pressure on prices...

EDIT: PS. The collection that Robin Williams had accumulated currently being auctioned off and I suspect he didn't make any of his bikes.

 

[docw009]

What's the price spread between a Haibike Enduro picked up at the LBS and a BBS02 build? If it's just a few hundred bucks, I really like the looks of the Yamaha mid drive and would go store bought, Still, my BBS02 was about $1099 on a beater bike I already owned, so I figure I'm at least a thousand bucks short in budget here.

My BBS02 conversion is still a bike to me. With 10 level PAS, I get a good pedal feel in the lower levels, so bike path speeds can make for good exercise. Users who like to fiddle with the programming cable can further adjust the PAS parameters to limit power assist at each level for a more granular pedal., but I haven't done that. I think the Bafangs have little or no motor drag when pedalling unpowered or in PAS 0. Others disagree, so maybe I'm wrong.

I liked converting the BBS02 because it put another bike back on the road that was not getting used, and it is a nice ride. It's not a BBSHD beast, but it's my most powerful e-bike. Still, you give me a Haibike, and I would like it too.

 

[JRL580]

What's the price spread between a Haibike Enduro picked up at the LBS and a BBS02 build? If it's just a few hundred bucks, I really like the looks of the Yamaha mid drive and would go store bought, Still, my BBS02 was about $1099 on a beater bike I already owned, so I figure I'm at least a thousand bucks short in budget here.

My BBS02 conversion is still a bike to me. With 10 level PAS, I get a good pedal feel in the lower levels, so bike path speeds can make for good exercise. Users who like to fiddle with the programming cable can further adjust the PAS parameters to limit power assist at each level for a more granular pedal., but I haven't done that. I think the Bafangs have little or no motor drag when pedalling unpowered or in PAS 0. Others disagree, so maybe I'm wrong.

I liked converting the BBS02 because it put another bike back on the road that was not getting used, and it is a nice ride. It's not a BBSHD beast, but it's my most powerful e-bike. Still, you give me a Haibike, and I would like it too.

The Haibike I'm considering is the SDURO Hardseven RC. It's retail price is $3199. I can get it brand new from a dealer by me for $2250. The price seems very good. I love the feel of the bike, I just don't like that the top speed is limited to 20MPH assisted. One of my main reasons for this bike is to save commute time and I ride a lot of open rural roads with little traffic. I could easily put more speed to use. I'd be happy with 25 to 30 MPH. That's why I'm curious if I had the speed limit removed, if these speeds would be attainable.

My other option is to use a bike I already have. It's a hybrid, REI brand Norvara Big Buzz. It's only a couple years old and basically brand new. It has decent components and I feel like a bafang would fit great on it. Has a standard BB size and looks like good clearance for everything. It's got hydraulic disc brakes and SRAM X5 shifting. It does not have a suspension fork, not sure if that will be an issue since I will be mostly on fairly smooth roads. I will probably put a little wider tires on it for some extra comfort.

Would this bike make a good conversion for a fast commuter?

 

[Warren]

That Novara should make a great commuter, on smooth roads. Run the fattest slicks that will clear the frame.