Help with cogging Hub Motor

[__Tango]

Hey folks,

I have a circa 2007 or 2008 Zapino scooter. It used to have a 60V Sealed Lead Acid battery pack. I changed the pack to a 60V Enerdel Lithium Ion pack (it saved about 80 lbs). It was working great as an around town kind of scooter, but during one ride, the motor started cogging badly and not running well.

I thought it might be one of the hall sensors in the motor being broken or not working, but I can see via a voltmeter that the hall sensor wires leading to the controller seem to be reading 0-5V properly.

Is the controller shot? Is there anything I can look for? Or do I need to replace the controller?

Here's a video showing what's going on [youtube]Fyc_Zspebm4[/youtube]

Note around 1:20, i mistakenly say that the hall sensor wires are Red, Yellow, Green. When it's Blue, Yellow, Green. Also, I'm not sure why it has 2 sets of hall three hall sensor wires. Also, does anyone know what the orange wire that goes to the motor is? It might be a temperature sensor, but i'm not sure.

Thanks for any help.

 

[e-beach]

Hey folks,

Note around 1:20, i mistakenly say that the hall sensor wires are Red, Yellow, Green. When it's Blue, Yellow, Green. Also, I'm not sure why it has 2 sets of hall three hall sensor wires. Also, does anyone know what the orange wire that goes to the motor is? It might be a temperature sensor, but i'm not sure.

Thanks for any help.

OK, firsts things first.......


Ok, so now that that is done, sometimes motors are built with 2 sets of Hall Sensors. I guess the manufactures are thinking about redundancy. The only way to know is to open the motor. But before you go there, I would:

Check all your connectors and make sure they are clean and tight. If they are:

You should also disconnect all the connections to your motor and spin it to see if it spins freely. If it is coging with all the wired disconnected then you have a short of the phases. It could be the wiring before it goes into the motor, it could be the wires inside the motor.

Test for a phase short. Set your multi meter to continuity, put the red probe into the phase wire connector that goes to the motor and the black probe to the axle of your motored wheel. Make sure you have good contact at both ends so the test is valid. Do this to all three phase wires. (The three big fat ones that go to the motor.) Every test should show an "open (not shorted)" result.

So does your motor cog with everything disconnected or does it only cog with things connected?

Let us know how it goes...

:lol:

 

[__Tango]

OK, firsts things first.......
...

Done! (Sorry about that ). I'm in the Bay Area, California. I've got an electric motorcycle conversion that I did with an Enertrac MH602 Hub motor and a [strike]Kelly KBL 120V/400A brushless[/strike], [strike]Sevcon Gen4 Size4 110V/300A[/strike], Kelly KLS8080I 144V/300A controller along with this scooter that I'm trying to bang on.

Ok, so now that that is done, sometimes motors are built with 2 sets of Hall Sensors. I guess the manufactures are thinking about redundancy. The only way to know is to open the motor. But before you go there, I would:

Check all your connectors and make sure they are clean and tight

yes, they are.

If they are:

You should also disconnect all the connections to your motor and spin it to see if it spins freely. If it is coging with all the wired disconnected then you have a short of the phases. It could be the wiring before it goes into the motor, it could be the wires inside the motor.

With all wires disconnected, the motor/wheel spins freely.

Test for a phase short. Set your multi meter to continuity, put the red probe into the phase wire connector that goes to the motor and the black probe to the axle of your motored wheel. Make sure you have good contact at both ends so the test is valid. Do this to all three phase wires. (The three big fat ones that go to the motor.) Every test should show an "open (not shorted)" result.

This was a little harder as the controller phase wires are tucked in a connector that blocks viewing. I dismantled the connector and there are 6 larger wires: blue, yellow, green, red, black, and either clear or another black.

I did as you suggested with the blue/yellow/green wires and the axle. All came up open.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[mistercrash]

Looks like a six phase motor. Do the same with the other big wires.

 

[__Tango]

Looks like a six phase motor. Do the same with the other big wires.

Same, all open. Thanks.

 

[e-beach]

If all your connections are good......

and you don't have any shorting in your phase wiring......

and all your Hall sinsors switch from about 1v to a little under 5v when you spin the motor slowly backwards......

and with everything pluged in and switches on, the motor cogs while spinning it by hand.....

then what you probably got is a blown mosfet in your controller.......or at least something blown in the controller.

What controller do you have for that scooter?

 

[__Tango]

If all your connections are good......

and you don't have any shorting in your phase wiring......

and all your Hall sinsors switch from about 1v to a little under 5v when you spin the motor slowly backwards......

and with everything pluged in and switches on, the motor cogs while spinning it by hand.....

then what you probably got is a blown mosfet in your controller.......or at least something blown in the controller.

What controller do you have for that scooter?

Hm. OK. I don't know what controller it is. It's the same one as here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=72461&p=1117566#p1117566. I'll take some pics of it tonight. Not sure I want to crack it open, but who knows, it may be fun.

 

[e-beach]

Testing for which phase is not getting it's full power.....

Just for reference......if your connectors allow you.....or if you know how to dismantle connectors......turn everything off, unplug one of your phase wires, it doesn't matter which one (the fat wires) isolate it with a piece of electrical tape if it might touch anything that might short. Turn on your scooter and engage the throttle for a second like you did in the video to see if it changes the motors ability to turn. Note the results and plug it back in to it's connector.

Repeat this with all your phase wires to see if with one of them, it makes no difference on how the motor runs. If you find that with one of them and the motor behaves no differently then it does in the video, you probably have found which phase is bad.

 

[__Tango]

Hmm. This is going to be a little harder. The connector for the drive wires is pretty good and doesn't easily allow me to get at them when they're plugged in. I'll try to figure out a way though.





Thanks!

 

[e-beach]

Might have to build jumper wires to test the phases individually. Something like 12 Gauge electrical wiring, like the kind for wiring up your house. With a female connector soldered on to the end of it for the pin.

 

[__Tango]

Ok. I built jumper wires using 0.093 molex pins like so:

And then shrink wrapped them:

Then put them inline like this:

When I removed them one at a time, I saw the following:

Blue: wheel ran smooth
Yellow: no change (wheel cogged)
Green: wheel ran smooth
Red: wheel didn't run at all
Black: wheel didn't run at all
White/clear: wheel cogged even worse than originally.

So I'm thinking that the red/black/clear wires aren't phase wires, though I'm still not sure what.

Based on what you wrote, it looks like the yellow wire is the busted phase.

Now what? :-D

Thanks!

 

[e-beach]

We got to learn more about your controller.

Pictures please.

Also, a visual inspection to see if anything is visually burnt or broken inside your controller.

Does you scooter have a reverse setting?

 

[Voltron]

That is one of the 6 phase Hubmonster type motors with the twin controllers in one box setup. One of the controller outputs must have something going on with it. John in CR is the resident expert on them.. reading some of his posts might help, and I've I've heard that the wire harness where it enters the axle is a known problem area on those.

 

[mistercrash]

I'm thinking a three phase motor with a thermistor. Yellow phase needs a new hall sensor.

 

[e-beach]

......... Yellow phase needs a new hall sensor.

The OP stated all halls tested OK.

 

[mistercrash]

Blue: wheel ran smooth
Yellow: no change (wheel cogged)
Green: wheel ran smooth
Red: wheel didn't run at all
Black: wheel didn't run at all
White/clear: wheel cogged even worse than originally.

So I'm thinking that the red/black/clear wires aren't phase wires, though I'm still not sure what.

Based on what you wrote, it looks like the yellow wire is the busted phase.

Now what? :-D

Thanks!

 

[__Tango]

Blue: wheel ran smooth
Yellow: no change (wheel cogged)
Green: wheel ran smooth
Red: wheel didn't run at all
Black: wheel didn't run at all
White/clear: wheel cogged even worse than originally.

So I'm thinking that the red/black/clear wires aren't phase wires, though I'm still not sure what.

Based on what you wrote, it looks like the yellow wire is the busted phase.

Now what? :-D

Thanks!

That was when pulling the yellow phase/drive wire. When I checked each individual hall sensor, they all seemed to be functional.

I've been busy with family and Thanksgiving stuff, so haven't had a chance to crack open the controller. Hopefully that'll happen tomorrow. i'll report back with pics when that happens.

Thanks.

 

[__Tango]

So now I know why there are 6 hall sensor wires and 6 drive phase wires.

Here's a pic of the controller. Nothing special, nor indicative of what's inside.

I wasn't expecting this when I opened it up:

It's like the russian nesting dolls of controllers. It's got two smaller controllers inside it. Each one has 3 phase and 3 hall sensor wires.

Before cracking open the individual controllers, I figured I could test them individually. I figured out which of the 6 phase wires go to which controller, then only hooked up the wires for the particular controller. I found that the one nearest to the wire outlets of the main housing (I'm calling it Controller A) is bad. it won't drive the motor at all (even when removing one of the three phase wires). The controller farthest from the outlets of the main housing (Controller B) is fine.

I also swapped the phase wires from Controller A and B and found that Controller B could drive the motor even if it used the phase wires from Controller A. Controller A could not drive the motor with it's own phase wires or the phase wires that are normally connected to controller B.

At this point, I ran out of time. I'll crack open the smaller controller as soon as I can.

Thanks!

PS: if anyone is interested, links to full sized pics are below.

https://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_8043-e1448999651874.jpg
https://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_8045-e1448999667430.jpg
https://electriceptor.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/img_8046.jpg

 

[e-beach]

Wow.....how does anything keep cool all bundled up like that?

BTW, how hot was it when the controller went out?

 

[Voltron]

The 6 phase configuration splitting the loads between the two controllers, and the small diameter wheel, keeps the amp draw relatively low... and the whole box hangs out the side of the scooter is pretty good airflow.

 

[e-beach]

.......the whole box hangs out the side of the scooter is pretty good airflow.

Air flow over the exterior box, yes, but that doesn't translate into air flow over the exterior box surfaces. Heat will build up inside the interior boxes lust like heat will build up in your body when you wear layers of clothes. IMO not the best design.

 

[Voltron]

Ive got a buddy with the same set up.. they have to put it somewhere and shield all the wires... it just doesn't run crazy hot, on his anyway.

 

[__Tango]

This is pure speculation at this point, but heat could definitely have played an issue in me killing it. After a couple of years sitting in my garage, I swapped out the 5 SLA batteries for a 60V pack of Enerdel batteries. The weight went from around 280 to 190 lbs. It became super fun to ride, so I was riding it really hard (a few all out accelerations from a stop). Oops.

Also, I didn't take a picture, but the small controllers were kind of jammed into the large box such that there was an air gap between the boxes on all sides except for a small strip along the sides that was hot glued to the box. I can see it getting hot in there if it gets pushed.

Hopefully, I'll have time to crack the controller open tomorrow.

 

[__Tango]

OK, so I finally got to the smaller controller. Guess what. There's another one inside!

Well, no. Just kidding.

Here's a pic: (Note all pics are clickable to full size versions)


I ended up cutting the phase and power wires because I don't think the black controller case has two halves, so I had to slide the board out from inside the case (after releasing the heat sink).





It took a while to get the heatsink off, but while I was messing with it (and I think I may have damaged the heatsink holder in the process), I saw some charring, so something bad definitely happened.



After removing the heatsink, that obviously wasn't the only problem. Looks like those are TP130N-10T (100V/130A FETs). There are two rows of them, and most of them are shot.



And here's the other row.


So, Is this fixable? Or do you think it's too far gone?

This is somewhat of an academic question as I'm seriously leaning towards throwing away the hub motor and this controller and getting a ReVolt RV-160 Short and a Kelly KLS controller anyway.

 

[Voltron]

Let me know when you throw it away so I can come get it out of your trash can.