How Would You Build An Ebike to WIN the Tour de France?

ryan

10 kW
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
638
Location
California Bay Area
Rather than hijack another thread about helping Lance Armstrong get even faster through ebikes... I'm more interested in what it would take for an average guy with an electric bicycle to win the Tour de France.

Assuming limitless budget and no pedaling, what would it take to average 24-25mph over 120-140 miles? How would this change for the mountain stages (@22-23mph!)?

Is it possible at all with today's battery technology, using similar geometries as the Tour guidelines (i.e. no recumbents or trikes)? Or would the weight of the necessary packs require an alternate geometry?

Are there any motors that could stand up to the abuse?
 
From my own, very limited, experience, I've done a 40 mile loop including some considerable climbing and averaged 21.4 mph. To accomplish that I needed 40lbs of Headways and a giant x5. I think I could more than make up the speed difference by better positioning, clothing, tires, rider weight, and a lighter carbon fiber bike. But the distance has me stumped. There's got to be a better way than adding another 80lbs of LiFePO4. Would an RC motor bring the efficiency up enough to go the distance? If you remove the x5 and used a lighter bike, that alone might gain you near 40lbs to be replaced with more batteries.

How would you do it?
 
RC drive with plenty of air cooling fan for the motor, and pit stops for more battery every 20-30 miles. However far you'd get on about 20 pounds of battery. The battery set up would of course need to be able to change very fast. Mabye even on the fly at 15 mph?
 
I get the feeling an RC drive would be more efficient too (due to gearing and weight reduction).

I hadn't thought about pit stops. Would it be possible without pit stops? Since replacing a battery would be like replacing a rider in the real Tour - making it a giant relay, what sort of packs would be necessary to reach 120-140 miles at 22-25mph?

How about we start with an Argon Electron as the base bike:
Argon18-E112-10-1000d.jpg


Add an Astro 3220:
3220_1.jpg


How much LiFePO4 would be necessary for 140 miles? Would 80lbs be enough? ~100v40Ah?
 
LiFePO4 = fail

If you want to recharge, you want LiCo polymer, aka LiPo.

If you're really on an unlimited budget, running primary (non-rechargable) Lithium cells from Saft would be the way to go. Each days pack would cost a couple grand, and only be useful once, but it would work.

Also, if you're unlimited buget, the Astro would be a poor choice. 98% efficient 1.4lbs launch point axial flux motor would be a much much better choice, as it would enable single stage drive ability for minimal additional losses, and its 1" width would minimize areo losses. For the hill climbing, its able to handle something like 5kw, which should be more than enough.
 
Interesting. What do you gain by using Saft's non-rechargeable packs? Are they a lot lighter? I notice they also sell rechargeable Li-ion packs. Are those not up to the challenge?

That LaunchPoint motor is crazy!
  • 7 horsepower @8400 rpm
  • 1.4 pounds
  • 95% efficient at 7 hp, 8400 rpm
  • 5 hp/lb
  • 6”diameter

Has anyone built an eBike with one of these yet? Are they even in production? Someone needs to get down to Santa Barbara quick and pick one up!
 
ryan said:
Interesting. What do you gain by using Saft's non-rechargeable packs? Are they a lot lighter? I notice they also sell rechargeable Li-ion packs. Are those not up to the challenge?

That LaunchPoint motor is crazy!
  • 7 horsepower @8400 rpm
  • 1.4 pounds
  • 95% efficient at 7 hp, 8400 rpm
  • 5 hp/lb
  • 6”diameter

Has anyone built an eBike with one of these yet? Are they even in production? Someone needs to get down to Santa Barbara quick and pick one up!


Yes, the primary lithium cells have a large advantage in energy storage density over all secondary type lithium cells, except lithium-air, but lithium-air doesn't have the power density needed to be very useful for EV applications.

Do you have the budgeting to make something happen, or are you just dreaming aloud?
 
Do I have a limitless budget? No.

But when I think of limiting factors keeping eBikes out of mainstream, I think of performance / weight issues. An ebike build that has the performance capability to win the most famous bike race in the world would be a great step. To give regular joes the experience of riding like the top athletes in the world would be awesome.

After building my heavy monster for climbing mountains and now trying to get more and more range out of it, I'm seeing that as a challenge that would require a total rebuild. I'd love for my next project to get closer to the touring capabilities of the above.

So, for a practical build, I wouldn't really consider non-rechargeable packs, but I hadn't known of their benefits.
 
Anything built to go up the hills in the TDF had better be putting the power through a decent gear range. Otherwise, you are carrying more power than you need just so you can make the grade. Some of those hills are pretty steep.
 
Supposing you did it with pings, a flat stage would take 75 ah of 48v. Or in other words, a 75 pound battery. Plus oh, another 25 ah because now you are packing 75 pounds. Call it 100 pounds of battey to do the 120-140 miles of a TDF stage.

Not even talking about a mountain stage either. So pit stops to swap packs would be just about mandatory to go that kind of distance. Without pit stops, the bike would start to morph into a small motorcycle just to carry all the battery.

But if they can hand over water all day in the peloton, you could do the same thing with hot swapable lipo packs. So every 10 mile your team grunt comes up the peloton with fresh lipo for ya. The car could either carry 10 grand in batteries or be a rolling charger.
 
The 25mph average is a complete misnomer.

Racing cyclists don't sit at 25mph all day, when they average that speed. The pros will be doing 35mph for long stretches. Make sure you're complete bike/rider can output at least 9 watts per kg sustained, taking into account the extra resistence of an ebike. When the pack is hammering up a climb at 25mph and the cyclists are pushing 700watts to do it, you're bike will be needing 1200+watts to match them.

Better work on your aerodynamics too.


Good luck getting enough batteries for 140miles through the mountains. There will be no pit stops, racers don't stop, except to pee. lol


Bottom line is you will basically have a motorcycle build if you want an ebike to win the Tour or any other real pro race.
 
You're right Veloman, " we build motorcycles" I confirmed today w/ my friend at the bikeshop who reluctantly works on the nonelectric parts of my bike and who is in training to do his 2nd cross-country in 30 days 'human power only'.....that Lance would not ride one of our creations....but it is fun to think about :D
 
I'm sure Lance wouldn't compete on an ebike. But the guy does like a fast vehicle. I bet he'd hop on one of methods bikes in a hearbeat and let some smoke out of the motor. :mrgreen:

In the criterium day in Tour of the Gila the other week, they did 30 or 40 miles around a circuit downtown. The entire field never got much below 30 mph the whole race. Including the part up an 8% grade into 40 mph wind! And only about 6 guys in that pack are TDF level riders. In the tour, they do take it easy the first 20-30 miles, when they are stopping to pee and stuff, and then settle into a 30 mph pace for the next 80 miles.
 
ryan said:
Rather than hijack another thread about helping Lance Armstrong get even faster through ebikes... I'm more interested in what it would take for an electric bicycle to win the Tour de France.

Assuming limitless budget and no pedaling, what would it take to average 24-25mph over 120-140 miles? How would this change for the mountain stages (@22-23mph!)?

Is it possible at all with today's battery technology, using similar geometries as the Tour guidelines (i.e. no recumbents or trikes)? Or would the weight of the necessary packs require an alternate geometry?

Are there any motors that could stand up to the abuse?

Some replies have implied this isn't really feasible, but its not that difficult. There is also the Tour of Britain, a similar event, and a while ago a group of us got together and rode e-bikes round one of the stages, the day after the athletes went through.

Our aim then was to cover the mileage and tackle the hills, not to produce a winning time. We nearly did it, but we did show it was possible. I wrote a bit about it here http://www.re-voltage.eu/exmoor2008.html.

But back to the original question. To run a well set up bike on the flat in no wind at sufficient speed might only require 400 W, that's all the athletes can produce anyway. You need to do that for 4 to 5 hours. That means 2000 Whr of battery. Many people on ES are running around with more than that for commuting. Its not out of the question on any of the grounds of size, weight or cost.

Next are the hills. Here we can exploit the difference between the electric and the human system. The human is limited in peak power so the speed varies with the gradient. But its better to run the electric system at constant speed. This means being able to deliver maybe 2000 W going up a hill. Again, not out of the question; many ES people are doing it to go shopping.

So its actually quite feasible. It would even make a good event and be good publicity. In fact, there's only one reason I haven't tried to promote such a thing as a proper e-bike race. The Tour de France and Tour of Britain are run on public roads, and the e-bikes needed would be very obviously not street legal.

Nick
 
Why no pedaling? That's just an e-moto then. But let's say the build is to be a demonstration of the effectiveness of electric bikes, which would actually be pretty cool to forward the cause. The best info I could find on the power requirements for the TDF, is from some scientific paper done to calculate Lance's power output for some famous climb, and they came up with 495 watts (6.97w/kg). I also found a chart of the watts/kg during the final climb of the mountain stages for some past winners, http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates.html . These are essentially the peak continuous output, and the riders don't maintain that output for the entire 4+ hrs of each stage.

That tells me all you need is 500W continuous at the wheel with a similar total weight and you'd win hands down. Realistically that means about 600W continuous from the battery for over 4 hours, so call it a 2500wh pack. I've seen higher energy density claims at the cell level, but the Hobby City packs are about 140wh/kg, so you're looking at an 18kg battery pack. You'd build the batteries into the bike itself in a manner to have minimal impact on aerodynamics, though it is likely to end up susceptible to side winds.

To stay with these numbers you'd want to get a horse jockey to ride it, so you have a comparable total weight. They're accustomed to a tucked position and smaller than the TDF races. Plus, since he's not pedaling it wouldn't be too difficult get better aerodynamics than the TDF guys with a different leg position or partial fairing. It's all about power to weight, so for a more normal size rider, you'd need to increase the power. A 110lb woman as the rider is another option, though if you really wanted to make a promo statement, build the bike to US limits and run 750W continuous with a 3kwh pack.

For the motor, use something small and efficient that can handle the continuous output without issue. From what I can tell the hills may be steep for pedaling, but really not all that steep for ebikes, but you will definitely need variable gearing to keep the motor running in its prime efficiency range.

With an unlimited budget it would actually be pretty easy. The starting point would be deciding on what size rider, and what form the bike will take (fairings, normal upright bike shape, etc.). With no rules, then low, sleek, and a small rider could greatly reduce the battery pack needed.

I'm working toward a bike that would easily win the TDF carrying 110kg me (less by ride day), because it will need to go 260kms on a single charge, and in the middle of the route I need to cross a mountain range with the pass being a 1400m climb over 20km that includes some long stretches of 10-11% grade. Once the bike is built, then it's overall efficiency will dictate my speed, but I do plan on something faster than the TDF avg speed to make my day shorter. It's something I've been talking about for over a year, but now that my college age son is definitely not going to participate in the project, it's time to make some real movement on it. Too bad I don't have an unlimited budget.

John

ps- I was typing my post as Tiberius submitted his, so sorry about the duplication of some stuff. I'm too lazy to go edit it.
 
Thanks for the responses John and Nick. Nick, what a great article! I'm not through with it yet, but it's a great read and sounds like a great trip.

The "no pedal" rule wasn't to outlaw pedaling, but for control -- to avoid someone saying they're build required a world class cyclist to start with. The challenge, as I see it, is more about getting an average athlete to the top. For example, I'm 165lbs and in alright shape, but there's no way I could ride with my roadie friends without power (not yet anyway). If I built this I'd want to pedal along as well, but I didn't want get into specifics about how many watts a rider may contribute.

It's encouraging to see this is more of a reality today than for the future. Care to collaborate on a shopping list? It sounds like the question isn't if it's possible, but more about how much it will cost.

(Note: If the build is reasonably affordable, I'm game at making a go at building it. If not, I have to believe someone else here would also enjoy building a bike capable of winning the Tour de France.)
 
dogman said:
Supposing you did it with pings, a flat stage would take 75 ah of 48v. Or in other words, a 75 pound battery. Plus oh, another 25 ah because now you are packing 75 pounds. Call it 100 pounds of battey to do the 120-140 miles of a TDF stage.

Not even talking about a mountain stage either. So pit stops to swap packs would be just about mandatory to go that kind of distance. Without pit stops, the bike would start to morph into a small motorcycle just to carry all the battery.

But if they can hand over water all day in the peloton, you could do the same thing with hot swapable lipo packs. So every 10 mile your team grunt comes up the peloton with fresh lipo for ya. The car could either carry 10 grand in batteries or be a rolling charger.

That's a good idea, because it brings the weight down to normal road bike levels. Tour riders generate about 300 watts while sitting in the peleton and maybe twice that when attacking. So assume our ebiker wants his battery to supply that on top of his own output, and hot-swap batteries supply 100 watt hours per kg, or 50 watt hours from something the size of a water bottle. In that case, his domestiques need to deliver extra bottles at a rate of at least six an hour. So with an in-car charger that seems just about feasible as a way to give a group of keen ecyclists a taste of what it would be like to ride a stage of the Tour at pro cyclist speeds.

But to win the Tour itself - even if it was allowed? At some point he's going to have to make an attack, and then each bottle will only last three minutes. Since a rider needs to have at least a two minute lead before his team car is allowed to come through and resupply him, it will take more than a little cunning to pick the right time.
 
JennyB said:
But to win the Tour itself - even if it was allowed? At some point he's going to have to make an attack, and then each bottle will only last three minutes. Since a rider needs to have at least a two minute lead before his team car is allowed to come through and resupply him, it will take more than a little cunning to pick the right time.

To clarify, the point isn't to build a stealth cheater bike, but to ride the same stages (perhaps a day or so later) with winning times.

Also, I'm not sure I like the battery swapping idea. I liken this eBike TDF challenge to the RoboCup, where the goal is "by mid-21st century, a team of fully autonomous humanoid robot soccer players shall win the soccer game, complying with the official rule of the FIFA, against the winner of the most recent World Cup." Replacing the batteries on the robots every few minutes would be ridiculous. They need to play a full game, just like the athletes. But I get the water bottle / power bar comparison, and the replacement pack idea might very well be an alternate solution, if less elegant.
 
You'd know when that attack was about to happen, buy the guy with 10 or 15 batteries stuffed in the back of the jersy. :D Say dude, are you about to make a go for it?

On a more practical note, it would be pretty cool to just do some of the same routes as a major road race at regular 20 mph ebike speeds just for the fun of riding as far as the big boys. 3 48v 15 ah pings would about do it, and a chase car to carry the spares would give the wife a reason to enjoy the same route in a car. My work schedule, and 70 mph winds discouraged me from doing that this year at the Tour of the Gila. It would be cool to do the Gila monster stage, Just driving that route can take 4 or 5 hours. Too bad no other Ebike adventurers live here in the middle of nowhere.

The Tour of California is coming up for you west coasters. Follow the peloton on a stage? The Big Bear stage looks like a goodie.
 
ryan said:
JennyB said:
But to win the Tour itself - even if it was allowed? At some point he's going to have to make an attack, and then each bottle will only last three minutes. Since a rider needs to have at least a two minute lead before his team car is allowed to come through and resupply him, it will take more than a little cunning to pick the right time.

To clarify, the point isn't to build a stealth cheater bike, but to ride the same stages (perhaps a day or so later) with winning times.

That's a whole different ball game. A light faired recumbent would get you farthest and fastest with the least battery. Otherwise, whatever gets you the most aero postion in comfort, because you'll be holding it for 4-5 hours.

Also, I'm not sure I like the battery swapping idea. I liken this eBike TDF challenge to the RoboCup, where the goal is "by mid-21st century, a team of fully autonomous humanoid robot soccer players shall win the soccer game, complying with the official rule of the FIFA, against the winner of the most recent World Cup." Replacing the batteries on the robots every few minutes would be ridiculous. They need to play a full game, just like the athletes. But I get the water bottle / power bar comparison, and the replacement pack idea might very well be an alternate solution, if less elegant.

I was thinking of something that would replicate the TdeF experience, not just a solo run. Bear in mind that the hour record on the track is just over 30 miles. The Tour boys can hold a chase faster that that only because its the few super-domestiques at the front who are doing most of the work. They aren't in contention for the yellow jersey so if things become really desperate they will stay up there for as long as they can. When they go out the back they'll cruise in the rest of the way to finish the stage just under the time limit which (if memory serves) is 80% of the winners speed. Stage racing is about judging when to make your effort and when to let another team do the chasing.

Small batteries that can be swapped on the fly would replicate that. In fact, they would allow lycras and e-cyclists who have the bike-handling skills to mix on equal terms. Just use standardised batteries, and allow a limited number of changes for each team, according to the standard of their riders. Bike design and battery distribution is free.

A good sponsorship idea for Bosch or Makita?
 
i love reading stuff on this forum

i have way too many comments to post

there are so many gifted multi talented people here the information is just awesome

it may be time for me to make a donation to the cause
lol i could have enrolled in a college course to learn so much as just reading the well thought out posts here
so much cheaper than an university
 
Sems others are thinking about this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-denies-reports-of-motorised-doping
 
Tex said:
Sems others are thinking about this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-denies-reports-of-motorised-doping

That's hilarious. Although it doesn't speak well for ebike-roadie relations when the first mechanized doper is caught.
 
Back
Top