Hub motor vs. RC for mid-drive setup.

ions82

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I have been reading through this section of the forum to get a better handle on how I should go about my next planned e-bike build. I'm debating whether to build my own frame for an on-road bike or maybe go toward something that will handle off-road, as well. For an off-roader, I'd probably lean more toward an RC-type motor. I get the impression that the RC-based motor setups are good for acceleration (lower voltage, higher amps) while the hub motor setups are usually used more for top speed (higher voltage.) Is that a correct assumption? Which of the two is usually more efficient? Eventually, I'd like to build both an on AND off-road bike. However, time and resources will have to put one before the other. Can anyone offer some general input on one motor versus the other?
 
I've only ever had 2 e-bikes (see links in signature). Both are RC type. For what it's worth, I like the setup and performance capabilities enough that as I plan my next bike - design/build from the frame-up - it will also be RC.

These bikes do indeed have great acceleration and a great overall power band. Mine start up fine from a standstill (about 20:1 reduction for both between motor and wheel). This is with sensorless (Astroflight 32X0 series) motors and Castle Creations HV-160 controllers.

The power plants components are small and pretty light weight. I have them mounted more or less in a way that minimizes unsprung weight, and keeps the drives away from bottoming out when going over stumps. I imagine these are good attributes for an off road bike, but I personally don't have offroad experience with either a pedal bike or my e-bikes.

So far that's the up side. The down side is complexity and cost. I spent a lot of money on my drive systems.
 
How much power you wanna run ?

off-road fun starts at 2 kw +

on paved roads, 1 kw or less is passable.

if you want a 500w setup and pedal it like a bicycle... again. it matters .

I have an Astro 3210 with a NuVinci in a 20" rim, HV110 ( that can cook the motor without even getting warm ) ..

if you go 3220 with an HV160, it's going to be a beast but $$$..

I have a pair of crystalyte 4013's i want to install as mid-mount with 100v 50 amps will be fun to compare it to my Astro with 50 volts and 100 amps. lol.
 
wow sounds nuts ypedal, 4013 what kind of rpm will you expect to see? better build a blast shield around it !! :lol:


i would suggest that 20kw burst, 10kw continous is about right for a pedal bike size and weight (under 100lbs). using only the best custom dh frames and moped style parts. I would put a 3:1 mid drive in swingarm, near pivot point, hubmonster HE , have a kill switch and mabye a wrist band to activate. 30s? 40s?

Farfle is king of this style edit with credit going to LPF for ushering the era, and scaring the kids. :mrgreen:
 
I have a mid-mounted hub-motor. No experience with RC type expect vicariously from this forum. My impression from one side of the fence is that RC builds run crazy high power, so great acceleration, torque. A mid-drive hub motor's strength is going to be its dependability and its silence. My mid-drive makes no noise above ordinary bike noise. I ride it on a bike trail daily and no one ever knows I am about to run them over unless I use my bell, and I mean RIGHT behind them. It will go up a crazy steep hill, but at a very slow pace. With your choice of gearing, I'd assume an RC could be either speed or torque build. My hubmotor mid-drive is a goat. The RC mid-drive would be a goat on meth and steroids I think.
 
i'd say, if you want to drive a lot, go for a MAC or bafang BPM / CST geared hub in a small 24" rim and a 48V 30amps controller. It you want to tinker, go for RC, best solution is to try both ;)

There is a third solution: try my hubmotor to middrive motor conversion (making the axle rotate http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=45245 ), a GNG or a cyclone.

I suggest going for a bafang BPM rear hub bike first. It will be most fun learning stuff cause you will make progress. Use a full suspension frame with at least 115cm wheel base, you'll need ;) You will always keep it as a commuter, it's just completely reliable. Use unflatable tires and tubes, you'll love it and wont ever want to miss! Go for a 52T or 53T chainwheel, you'll need it. As you see, there is so much to do on a hubmotor bike. You'll have a lot of fun tinkering with it. In 2014, you may want to start an RC build then ;)

this is what my all-day bike looks like: It was the bike I had most fun with doing least effort. It's also fun to take it with you, at only 19kg!

btw. what I just above, if is the compressed knowlage I got during the past years. I would have been so pleased if I'd have gotten this advise 2years ago. Questions like yours are the approval that we NEED a better wiki.
 

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I've been doing a little more research, and it sounds like the R/C-type motors need to be running at high RPM, or one may encounter some trouble. I read through a couple posts that described how the gearing is absolutely critical, or motors and controllers will start letting out smoke. I definitely don't want to go with high-end R/C components and start melting them down. In reading about Matt Shumaker's DaVinci drive, it sounds as though it has to be geared low enough that it tops out at 40 mph. I currently ride a MAC motor (8T) with a 12s3p LiPo setup. That system does over 30 mph, and it just sips power if I pedal along with it. Additionally, my legs are partially paralyzed (from a spinal injury), so I can't really give it much assistance.

Anyway, the reason that I am considering building a new system is to get something that will travel at the speed of traffic. When I am going 30 mph in a 30 mph zone, people are still driving like @$$holes and trying to squeeze around me. In a 35, they're usually going about 45. I typically take side streets and bike paths, but sometimes I have to get on a busier street. I feel as though I would be safer traveling with traffic instead of just a little slower. People in cars sure are reckless. I've been a cyclist my whole life. Since I broke my back ten years ago, I've spent most of my time riding handcycles. However, since I've discovered the wonderful world of e-bikes, I've been able to enjoy being on two wheels again. The way people drive around me when I'm on my handcycle is completely different than when I'm on the e-bike. On the handcycle, people give me lots of room and are far more cautious. On the e-bike, they go racing around me and don't give me very much space. I almost feel like carrying a small club so I can smash tail lights when I catch up to them at an intersection. However, I don't think that would make car/bike relations any better. Then again, I think people will always drive like jerks (until one of their loved ones is killed or maimed by reckless driving.)

Getting back to my original post, I've started drawing up some sketches for a mid-drive specific bike that doesn't have any pedals/cranks. I'm finding that it will be very difficult to fit both the motor and a modular battery system inside the frame. Electric motorcycle builders sure have their work cut out for them. Because of the limited space, an R/C motor might make more sense. From the get-go, I've planned on using gears at the rear wheel (either a NuVinci or traditional cassette.) To get a reliable R/C setup, it seems that it would be imperative (if I am going to reach the 50 mph mark.) I think it would be much easier on both the motor and the controller. However, to get the R/C motor speed low enough to use gears at the rear wheel, I would need to have a serious gear reduction. Even with the 4 or 5-to-1 ratios with Mr. Shumaker's drives, it still requires a HUGE sprocket at the wheel just to keep things from burning up. The idea of using a DOUBLE has entered my mind, and I've also wondered about the possibility of making my own planetary gear system. However, those options get complicated rather quickly. I've really been charmed by the simplicity, efficiency, and effectiveness of my MAC hub. I'd like to build a system that has similar qualities but has more top speed. I'm thinking that it may not yet be feasible with the current options available.
 
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