Lithium Polymer via Air Shipping - Were in for trouble now!

[mwkeefer]

Hello all,

Well quietly in the background, while we have been ordering literal tons of LiPo from vendors like HobbyKing and so on over in Hong Kong... the HK Post clarified their position on Lithium Polymer batteries being accepted for delivery / shipment via air transport - NOT ALLOWED - date on the announcement December 2009.

If you had an HKPost account (wish I had one) you would have received many notifications from them since Jan 2010 and would have been told the date they would be screening everything, thereby stopping all shipments of LiPo destined for Air Courrier like EMS Speed Post to any Country (not just the USA).

Not having an account personally and not realizing that the same laws enacted here in the states were enacted in Hong Kong as they are UN based and to be adhered to by all member nations... I was ordering LiPo left and right from HobbyKing too...

The problem is that the drop dead, don't bring us lipo date is past - and there are far more vendors and ebayers than just HobbyKing who were / are trying to force / push orders / shipments out... the net result of this will be an increase in the time items posted through Hong Kong Post (even those not containing Lithium Polymer batteries) will take to clear Hong Kong on their Journey to wherever. Shipments containing Lithium Polymer batteries will either be returned to sender or confiscated according to HK Post.

Until vendors like HobbyKing have local / nation based warehouses stocked and are implementing legally compliant shipping for large LiPo orders - I would strongly urge you to find an alternative source or if possible use a freight forwarder to ship via sea (yea like we don't have enough shit in our sea right now, but it's legal).

Hope it helps!
-Mike

 

[snowranger]

That's useful information. That said. It is the shipper's legal risk not yours.

 

[mwkeefer]

Yes you are correct - the owness of not trying to ship lithium polymer via air freight, according to the UN regulation and subsequent change in policy for HK Post is on the Shipper not the Receiver...

That said, if nothing is going to make it through with Lipo and all these places are still sending Lipo (most are) the HK Airport (after arrival at HK Post) has introduced screening and they won't get through - this process slows down even non-lipo orders quite a bit and will in effect block I would say 99.5% (like spermicide) of Lithium Polymer shipments.

I know many people who have gotten caught up with this, various vendors... including myself with HobbyKing.

Had I been aware of a drop dead date, I would have arranged a very large group buy and had it sent via freight forward (atleast a half pallette for me).

-Mike

 

[mysterywhiteboy]

This was posted on the hobbyking Forum today

Dan



** Jasons post:

It's starting to look permanent for Hong Kong Post.
That means alot of small eBayers and other stores that dont have the capacity to ship out via private courier will be attempting time and time again to post their lipo's only to have them returned a week or two later.
You're going to see alot of HK/CN vendors stop selling Lipo's in the coming weeks/Months as they work out that it's not getting through. **

We are now doing the following;
1) We have charged two private courier companies with the task of shipping our products out. Bypassing Hong Kong Post.\

2) We have already sent 2 containers of Lipoly to Germany and next week 1 container to Seattle (the location of our new warehouse to be).

3) Customers who buy Lipo from as now will have them shipped via the Private couriers.

4) In future you will have a greater selection of Lipo from USA (Seattle) or DE (Hamburg) warehouses.

5) We are changing tracking system pages this week and next to better reflect the new services.

In the end you're going to get your batteries at the same price, but with faster shipping and less customs issues.

 

[liveforphysics]

The HobbyKing warehouse in Seattle is 15mins from my house....


That said, I just had 2 more packages, both containing LiPo (and a grand of RC helicopter parts), sitting on my front door step today. Both shipped HK post, both showed signs of being opened and inspected, both had labels saying "$18 hobby toy parts." Both arrived safely with nothing missing.

 

[dogman dan]

It figures. 15 min from your house. Prolly looked at who lives closest to various ports and said, "Lets save money on shiping to Luke"

I hope that container has lots of 5s and 6s 5000 mha packs in it. Or you know who will stroll in the door and scarf em all. :lol:

Maybe that container is why a lot of what we want is out of stock at the moment?

They will find a solution to fill a market as lipo hungry as the US is getting to be. But a lot of tiny ebay types will have to settle for selling a cheap charger.

How much lipo is legal to fly? Any? Could a single 6s 5000 mha pack still be shipped air?

 

[MrKang]

Can't wait for people like me in europe when the German Warehouse is filled up and stocked with all turnigy lipo's assortiments.
If they say that prices will be the same than we are very lucky !!

 

[mysterywhiteboy]

Hi

I found this, looks as even coin cells are over as well.

http://www.ulbi.com/documents/white...ithium_Battery_Transportation_Regulations.pdf

I am looking forward to the German warehouse getting in more stock but already see that their prices are higher and not the same, I guess they have had to ship them half way round the world already.

Even so its a lot cheaper than anyone else, in time these prices will drop I am pretty sure and I reckon the EV community as a whole will pick up on the fact that they represent such an amazing energy density and price, sure they are not for newbies and the plug an play brigade but most EV enthusiasts are neither of those.

Looks like Hobbyking are addressing the problem, my order was placed last week so I am hoping they skipped HK post, we shall see? my exiting batteries may last me a month or so but thats about it!! and the summers is here.

Dan

 

[swbluto]

The HobbyKing warehouse in Seattle is 15mins from my house....

If you live in Washington, you'd pay sales tax, right?

I need to ship to one of the neighboring states. :lol:

 

[liveforphysics]

Anything I buy from the Seattle wearhouse would of course be under a tax-free UBI business number. I've got one, my dad's got one, most of my friends have one etc. Or, if its something you can't see justifying as a business expense, buy it with an out of state drivers licence. I don't think anyone in my family has paid sales tax for large ticket items for 10 years. Lol

The HobbyKing warehouse in Seattle is 15mins from my house....

If you live in Washington, you'd pay sales tax, right?

I need to ship to one of the neighboring states. :lol:

 

[frodus]

According to what I've read, this is nothing new, its an international regulation that has been in effect for some time. They made some updates that went into effect January 1, 2010 and seem to have cracked down quite a bit.... HK Post probably got fined and is now being more careful. I don't blame them, the fines are pretty hefty.

Lithium, unless it has UN Certs and MSDS sheet, cannot be transported via air into, out of or within the US. Shipping via someone else that doesn't care is still against regulations.

They either need UN Certs or need to go via ground/sea.
http://www.iata.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/Documents/GuidanceDocumentontheTransportofLiBatt_2010.pdf


I bet all of those LiPo resellers were shipping illegally to begin with.... so I don't have much pity for them for not complying. Last year, about this time, I spent a lot of time researching, making phonecalls and emailing people to make damn sure that I was shipping my group-buy LEGALLY. I complied as much as they told me, but I took the initiative to make sure that I wasn't doing it wrong.

Not sure if they have UN certs and MSDS or not (Need to have both), but it sounds like there was an issue with shipping.... and going private courier isn't going to get around the problem....

 

[grindz145]

Hi

I found this, looks as even coin cells are over as well.

http://www.ulbi.com/documents/white...ithium_Battery_Transportation_Regulations.pdf

I am looking forward to the German warehouse getting in more stock but already see that their prices are higher and not the same, I guess they have had to ship them half way round the world already.

Even so its a lot cheaper than anyone else, in time these prices will drop I am pretty sure and I reckon the EV community as a whole will pick up on the fact that they represent such an amazing energy density and price, sure they are not for newbies and the plug an play brigade but most EV enthusiasts are neither of those.

Looks like Hobbyking are addressing the problem, my order was placed last week so I am hoping they skipped HK post, we shall see? my exiting batteries may last me a month or so but thats about it!! and the summers is here.

Dan

Interesting company.... 8)

The new class 9 regulations are going to make lithium batteries alot more expensive...

 

[mysterywhiteboy]

It does seem orders are still getting through via EMS I guess they dont screen every package? as long as the DE warehouse is competitive on price we will be in for a real treat in Europe it should help lower some of the silly prices other vendors are asking for lipo as well.

 

[frodus]

Interesting company.... 8)

The new class 9 regulations are going to make lithium batteries alot more expensive...

They're just repeating what is in the IATA regulations that I linked....

and Hazmat 9 has been in effect for much longer than this year, its nothing "new".... it was just ignored before. Now it seems that the governing bodies are cracking down and fining shippers, as they should. More lithium is shipping in and out of the US with the growing interest in EV's and the sale of more portable electronics.

I wouldn't reference any data that is hosted on a company website, refer only to the actual information posted on the IATA website, as they are the regulating body. The reason being, the data on the ultralife website could be outdated, and if you comply with their regulations, it doesn't guarantee that you're complying with the CURRENT regulations.

finding a way around it only delays the issue and sets you up for risk of fine..... and its not JUST the shipper. If you are the receiver and knowingly recieve goods, you too can be liable.

 

[vanilla ice]

Soo.. if one does not mind waiting, how does one get lipo surface shipped from HK?

 

[frodus]

talk to the manufacturer or reseller and request it.....thats what I did.

 

[mwkeefer]

The HK Warehouse In Seattle isn't a warehouse yet... it's a warehouse to be (from the owner of HobbyKing) - I am not sure they get the class 9 hazmat stuff yet, I've posted and emailed about it in the hopes they will find someone who already has their UN certs to compliantly ship LiPo for them from the "new warehouse"...

Providing that this doesn't resolve within the next week or two (as in if I have to reverse my charges)... I have identified the actual 2 chinese manufacturers used for Turnigy and Zippy brand cells and while HobbyKing will not offer a discount on a several thousand dollar freight forward type shipment... they will.

If it comes down to it, I will pull 5K out of pocket and bring as many LiPo as I can order from the factory to be stocked at an East Coast location (Lanacaster, PA) and a west Coast location (can't disclose sorry)... If my math is right, I could offer pricing simliar or even possibly better than the HobbyKing pricing however shipping of large orders would still require the Class 9 type declaration and thus the Hazmat rate which on a bulk UPS type account amounts to about 60.00 if memory serves (for 2 x 74v nominal 5.8 AH Lithium) - that's the surcharge on top of the 20.00 ship charge I think.

In either case, if I do commit and import a pallette it will be all 5S and 6S packs < 10mohm matched and between 5000 and 5800mah, the offer I am getting for 5000 20C is sweet (about 2/3 of what HK charges without postage).

I will open a new topic should I decide to commit to this, hobby flight guys can pick up packs (smaller) from lots of places but really we only seem to use multiples of 5 and 6s so I wouldn't waste time importing anything else... who knows maybe gary will have boxes ready for these and then building packs is plug and play (pray in HK = prey) and bolt the top on?

-Mike

 

[frodus]

its not that you have to have someone with UN Certs, its that the batteries need UN Testing done, to be certified safe for transport. This is in addition to packaging them properly and having Training to do so.

They never charged me at UPS for shipping lifepo4, but it might be different with Lipo..... spend some time on the phone with IATA before you get too worked up about it. As long as its ground, there are usually no problems..... its more to do with the actual import of cells. Once its here, ground is fine as long as its marked correctly.

Then once you get a hold of IATA, call UPS and get things situated with them. i forget who I talked to, but she was very knowledgable.

 

[mwkeefer]

Frodus,

I did not take the cert course just the online test to receive my certification for shipping ( I have to look at the cert I received, the number escapes me ) hazmat in generall, only a small portion was relating to Lithium packaging and shipment.

That said...

The law is actually a bit odd... I spent quite some time researching as many of the applicable laws as possible...

Under X amount or content of lithium anyone can send (also under X in series or X total cells) via USPS even... I forget what the X is and rather than post inaccurate info... I'll double check it later and edit those Xs.

The UN certification is indeed required for battery packs containing lithium and being shipped within the US, importing them is usually done via surface transport and as such doesn't matter quite as much...

I will hold everything else I have to say on the matter for a while until I can get all my numbers in mind... I haven't really had to deal with any of this in about 6 months so some of it just isn't in internal storage (my brain) at this time = )_

-Mike

 

[frodus]

I did not take the cert course just the online test to receive my certification for shipping ( I have to look at the cert I received, the number escapes me ) hazmat in generall, only a small portion was relating to Lithium packaging and shipment.

Thats one thing required for air shipment (sounds like you have that part done). I know it states that you need to be certified to handle/pack and ship goods containing Hazmat 9 materials, even if they do/do not have the UN Certification testing compliance.

Under X amount or content of lithium anyone can send (also under X in series or X total cells) via USPS even... I forget what the X is and rather than post inaccurate info... I'll double check it later and edit those Xs.

The UN certification is indeed required for battery packs containing lithium and being shipped within the US, importing them is usually done via surface transport and as such doesn't matter quite as much...

Yeah, you can ship USPS/UPS/Fedex via Air IF AND ONLY IF the UN Certification testing has been done by an authorized testing facility. Most battery manufacturers never get this done, and its expensive for the average Joe to get this done. Its required for shipment INTO, OUT OF and WITHIN the US via AIR. Many other countries have this regulation as well. Surface has different rules.

Also, importing large quantities may be done via surface, but I know for a FACT that TS, SE, Hipower, Headway and many orders via air all the time (mostly small-ish orders).... but the batteries they ship are not UN certified, which is why I've ordered all of my stuff surface. I don't want to risk anything.

I will hold everything else I have to say on the matter for a while until I can get all my numbers in mind... I haven't really had to deal with any of this in about 6 months so some of it just isn't in internal storage (my brain) at this time = )_

Its better to play it safe, I'd hate to see you get fined, which is why I chimed in.... Its good to review it because the rules starting Jan 1, 2010 are different than last years rules.

 

[mysterywhiteboy]

This was posted on the Hobbyking forum, site looks legit but they appear to be block ordering from HK in china, however the returns are dealt with in the US anyway read the statement below and see what you think. On their site they acknowledge delays due to HK post restrictions though, prices seem comparable though, if they can get the stock in it may be an option for some folks.

http://www.hobbykingusa.com



HobbyKing USA was created to fill gaps in the HobbyKing ordering experience:
1. Sort and filter through thousands of products quickly and easily to find what you are looking for.
2. Compare any like products on the site with all the stats and details right next to each other.
3. Affordable FAST shipping with tracking from Hong Kong to your doorstep.
4. Warranty / Return Service located here in the USA.
5. In the future we will maintain high levels of stock here in the USA.

HobbyKing USA is operating as a club with group buying power. We will do our best to help out fellow RC enthusiasts within the limitations of not running a day-to-day online store. Please do not treat us like a blank face online store, we work and respond as in a club environment.

So how does it work? We place orders directly to HobbyKing every Monday based on the previous Tuesday-Sunday online requests (orders). Some weeks we are also able to place a Thursday order depending on the volume received. Shipments are sent to us either EMS Express Mail or DHL Express and take 1-2 days to process and 3-4 days to transit. When we receive the shipment it takes us 12-24 hours to ship via the delivery method you choose. Why do we offer the service? Many people want to save on shipping costs and only want to order 1 or 2 items at a time. If you order directly from HobbyKing and choose cheap shipping it can take 6-39 days (or forever and just not show up). By using our group buying power you get a lower cost on the items you want to purchase, and it comes to the USA via registered, insured, trackable EMS or DHL.

HobbyKing USA offers one more HUGE advantage. Every item you order we will stock a single replacement for locally. All defective items will have a replacement available right here in the US and we will ship it out as soon as we receive your defective item back. The HobbyKing warranty period will be fully honored. When we receive an item you are unhappy with we will check to ensure HobbyKing will accept the return and then immediately send out a new one (shipping will not be covered).

We understand this system is not for everyone, the price quotes for shipment directly from HobbyKing are available on the shopping cart page for easy comparison.

Backorders
All orders placed on HobbyKing USA will attempt to be filled. Due to the high volumes HobbyKing processes sometimes a product you want will go out of stock between when you make your request here and when we place the order on Monday or Thursday. We make absolutely NO guarantee that an item you order will be in stock or available when we place the order. If you absolutely must have the item and cannot wait up to 21 days then place your order directly with HobbyKing. We will not accept requests for refunds for items that have already been ordered in and are present at the US warehouse. You may only request a refund for items that remain out of stock for an extended period of time and have not yet been shipped to the US.

 

[mwkeefer]

While the idea is nice...

> EMS Express Mail or DHL Express

I'm certain that EMS is Air based and believe DHL is also... this would mean neither will work for ordering from Hobby King anymore...

They would need to order from Hobby King and take delivery via a freight forwarder (or directly deal with the import) (the logical choice for buying from Hobby King in such large qty, EMS post would be outrageous on such weights)...

-Mike

 

[mwkeefer]

Frodus,

One alternative I've not research is Rail Dispatch... Freight moved on rails can be quite fast within the states and canada but... I am unsure the DOT regulations (if any) on use of Rail Freight?

Since you seem to have this without referring to the book (ok, ebook and kb) any ideas?

Your 100% spot on about my cert... it's for shipping anything Hazmat, the only part I really was worried about getting right was the air shipment of certified packs within the states for expedited delivery since that was the reason for obtaining the cert. It deals with all Hazardous Materials (well most)... still I am in your camp, as I shift what I do I simply read up and ensure I have all the proper legalities met.

On the USPS shipping... I am not 100% sure you are right on, I seem to recall (yes even in the new 01/2010 requirements / laws) there being exception for small lithium polymer with specific cell counts in series or max number of cells. I know this got my attention because it explained how power tool batteries, laptop batteries, etc can be shipped via air instead of ground and not require Hazmat certification (just labeling as class 9 contents within ... something I can't recall specifications). This is fuzzy (darn I used to know it) but relevant because I think in the end you could ship up to 2 5S packs at the time (maybe lower capacity though).

I've been dealing with Hazmat, the FAA and LiMn for years now with Segways... the Gen2 i2/x2 can't go on an airplane because the batteries are LiMn and even though they are certified they are too large for passenger aircraft and those regulations apply to all lithium chemistry and make no distinctions for "safe chemistries". The older segways are allowable on aircraft as they use niMh packs, and of course you can't use a Gen I on a Gen II (different BMS and MCU).

All that said (and I swear I am not one, nor do I know of a commercial service who would do this)... I know people who take their Gen1 Segway on Airplanes but they have repacked the batteries from NiMh to LiPo! It makes them so much lighter it's not funny and when/if the FAA people look at the cases they bear the NIMH battery information.

The thing that pisses me off (the only thing) about shipping done "backchannel" is how the hell does a fireman or postal employee know not to try and use water on LiMn or LiCo? Even with proper labeling (never done from HK based vendors in my experience) the existing system doesn't break down into enough sub classifications - leaving relative safe chemistries penalized for more explosive chemistries draw backs but more importantly... Though Lithium is the thing everyone thinks of... as an ex fire fighter, I want to know if it's LiCo, LiMn, LiPo, LiFePo4, etc... There is more in these than Lithium that's dangerous and I'd love to see an exposed LiMn pack when someone tried water on it... KABOOM! The others, it would just be useless and in some cases causes more dangerous gasses to form....

-Mike

Surface transport should always be okay..

 

[GGoodrum]

This was posted on the Hobbyking forum, site looks legit but they appear to be block ordering from HK in china, however the returns are dealt with in the US anyway read the statement below and see what you think. On their site they acknowledge delays due to HK post restrictions though, prices seem comparable though, if they can get the stock in it may be an option for some folks.

http://www.hobbykingusa.com



HobbyKing USA was created to fill gaps in the HobbyKing ordering experience:
1. Sort and filter through thousands of products quickly and easily to find what you are looking for.
2. Compare any like products on the site with all the stats and details right next to each other.
3. Affordable FAST shipping with tracking from Hong Kong to your doorstep.
4. Warranty / Return Service located here in the USA.
5. In the future we will maintain high levels of stock here in the USA.

HobbyKing USA is operating as a club with group buying power. We will do our best to help out fellow RC enthusiasts within the limitations of not running a day-to-day online store. Please do not treat us like a blank face online store, we work and respond as in a club environment.

So how does it work? We place orders directly to HobbyKing every Monday based on the previous Tuesday-Sunday online requests (orders). Some weeks we are also able to place a Thursday order depending on the volume received. Shipments are sent to us either EMS Express Mail or DHL Express and take 1-2 days to process and 3-4 days to transit. When we receive the shipment it takes us 12-24 hours to ship via the delivery method you choose. Why do we offer the service? Many people want to save on shipping costs and only want to order 1 or 2 items at a time. If you order directly from HobbyKing and choose cheap shipping it can take 6-39 days (or forever and just not show up). By using our group buying power you get a lower cost on the items you want to purchase, and it comes to the USA via registered, insured, trackable EMS or DHL.

HobbyKing USA offers one more HUGE advantage. Every item you order we will stock a single replacement for locally. All defective items will have a replacement available right here in the US and we will ship it out as soon as we receive your defective item back. The HobbyKing warranty period will be fully honored. When we receive an item you are unhappy with we will check to ensure HobbyKing will accept the return and then immediately send out a new one (shipping will not be covered).

We understand this system is not for everyone, the price quotes for shipment directly from HobbyKing are available on the shopping cart page for easy comparison.

Backorders
All orders placed on HobbyKing USA will attempt to be filled. Due to the high volumes HobbyKing processes sometimes a product you want will go out of stock between when you make your request here and when we place the order on Monday or Thursday. We make absolutely NO guarantee that an item you order will be in stock or available when we place the order. If you absolutely must have the item and cannot wait up to 21 days then place your order directly with HobbyKing. We will not accept requests for refunds for items that have already been ordered in and are present at the US warehouse. You may only request a refund for items that remain out of stock for an extended period of time and have not yet been shipped to the US.

Right at the top of their home page, is this note:

"Battery shipments from HK have been halted due to HK Post. Orders that include batteries will be delayed."

 

[swbluto]

I don't understand the advantage of that incarnation of Hobby-City USA. It seems the shipping prices are pretty similar if not more expensive, and they also tack on a "processing" fee of $5.19 at the time of this writing on my screen.