mailing puffed lipos?

[jimmyhackers]

hello all.

i ordered 3x floureon 13000mah 6s lipo batteries off of ebay.

one of them came with a puffed cell. what are a laws/rules of sending a puffed/damaged lipo by mail (UK services)

will any of them take a potentially dangerous battery? im reluctant to send it by any service tbh. i dont want to be responsible for a fire in a mail depot etc.

i have informed the seller of their arrival condition and am awaiting a response. i havn't beeen asked to return them yet but i have a inkling he will.

any advice is appreciated

jim

 

[TristanP]

In general there are restrictions on the amount of lithium in a pack as well on the amount of batteries and/or cells. Also carriers have packaging guidelines, which may include placing the cells in a box within a strong outer box and adding specific labels to your package. (How did the seller ship these items?)

No carrier allows for the shipment of damaged lithium batteries. You should dispose these puffed lipos at a recycling centre (or whichever place allows you to dispose your lipos.) Another option is neutralizing them, so you can discard it in the trash.

 

[Syonyk]

I can't speak to UK regulations, but there are very clear laws in the US regarding mailing damaged lithium batteries.

They amount to, "No. You can't. Not even with a 4G Class II mailer. Just no."

 

[TristanP]

Information about the regulations of the UK can be found here. To a large extent it's the same for entire Europe, and not just restricted to the UK or EU.

You don't want to went through the effort of shipping dangerous goods just for the sake of returning a defective item.

 

[nutnspecial]

Okay, I'd like to chime in with some possibly necessary theoretical.

Is puffed 'damaged' in shipping terms? I'd like to see the stipulations for 'damaged'.

Is 'puffed' damaged in sale terms. . . Yep, imo, and also any decent balance inequities.

If the thing isn't overcharged or leaking electrolyte / mangled <<<damaged>>>>, it can only be unacceptable in terms of fair sale terms ((out of balance, puffed, etc)), not necessarily 'damaged' for shipping in my logic. Fight a return for refund on principle, but I wouldn't (and have not) refused return for refund on physically undamaged. Just state to shipper it is lithium as required and label appropriately.

 

[dogman dan]

Puffed is damaged. You can't mail damaged, or ship by ground. If nothing else, you'll really love it when a fire that burns a semi truck is traced to your address.

 

[Ykick]

In good conscience damaged (puffed) RC Lipo can’t be shipped. Seller needs to be convinced by photos and test data that the pack is damaged and then work out a replacement/refund that doesn't entail the damaged pack to be shipped.

The only way I might ship ‘em with a semi-clear conscience would be if they were completely discharged/neutralized?

Even then, any authority looking at them would see a battery pack so you could still suffer legal ramifications even though there’s little to no chance they could ignite. There’s still flammable solvent inside so that could be an issue but chances of ignition very slim.

Plus, the seller could claim you damaged them draining them to 0V.

 

[nutnspecial]

Well imo puffy didn't equate to damaged in shipping terms. . . .

I couldn't see any measurable increase in danger. A fire would still come from physical damage to cell, resulting in rapid self discharge and thermal runaway, or overcharge resulting in the same thing. Whether a cell is puffed or not?

Although I also find it highly unlikely you would ever be held liable for a fire among packages should the very unlikely happen: (because even if 'trackable', how do they prove it's somehow your fault? If there's a battery fire most likely the package was damaged in shipping, it would be very difficult to prove otherwise, and they do have insurance for a reason.) we certainly don't want to be irresponsible, so not shipping any type of defective battery is of course the safest and most responsible.

Keep in mind sellers are shipping this stuff all the time, often 'defective', often not properly marked, and very often not very safely packaged. . . .


Stated above: "there are clear shipping guidelines".
I assume that should be so, but does anyone have a link?

 

[izeman]

as already mentioned: if the cell is totally discharge to zero volt, and stays there, there is NO WAY it's dangerous. and therefore should not fall under the "dangerous goods" declaration.
if you ever did some experiments with a 0V cell you know what i mean. i did several times with several batteries at several SOC, that i know what to expect to happen.
you can hammer a 0V cell, bend it, nail it, cut it, ... whatever you like. no energy in the cell means no danger.

 

[MrDude_1]

Im in a similar situation.
I bought a couple Nissan Leaf modules off ebay.. BIG lipo batteries, in a thin aluminum case
The dumb person stuck them in a box and mailed them USPS flat rate. No padding other than a piece of cardboard inside the box.
This of course, crushed the first time they tipped the box sideways, and the cells were bashed around.

Now I have two damaged modules. I cant ship them back. I cant use them. I am just out $200.

 

[Syonyk]

I stand corrected, 49CFR does have regulations for how one goes about shipping damaged lithium. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=se49.2.173_1185&rgn=div8

(f) Damaged, defective, or recalled cells or batteries. Lithium cells or batteries, that have been damaged or identified by the manufacturer as being defective for safety reasons, that have the potential of producing a dangerous evolution of heat, fire, or short circuit (e.g., those being returned to the manufacturer for safety reasons) may be transported by highway, rail or vessel only, and must be packaged as follows:

(1) Each cell or battery must be placed in individual, non-metallic inner packaging that completely encloses the cell or battery;

(2) The inner packaging must be surrounded by cushioning material that is non-combustible, non-conductive, and absorbent; and

(3) Each inner packaging must be individually placed in one of the following packagings meeting the applicable requirements of part 178, subparts L, M, P and Q of this subchapter at the Packing Group I level:

(i) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), or solid plastic (4H2) box;

(ii) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), or plastic (1H2) drum; or

(iii) For a single battery or for a single battery contained in equipment, the following rigid large packagings are authorized:

(A) Metal (50A, 50B, 50N);

(B) Rigid plastic (50H);

(C) Plywood (50D); and

(4) The outer package must be marked with an indication that the package contains a “Damaged/defective lithium ion battery” and/or “Damaged/defective lithium metal battery” as appropriate.

Is puffed 'damaged' in shipping terms? I'd like to see the stipulations for 'damaged'.

See above.

Also, this is one of those things that's up for interpretation. If it comes down to your "Well, I thought it was fine" vs a regulator's opinion of, "No, that's damaged, and it's not in a compliant case," you lose.

If the thing isn't overcharged or leaking electrolyte / mangled <<<damaged>>>>, it can only be unacceptable in terms of fair sale terms ((out of balance, puffed, etc)), not necessarily 'damaged' for shipping in my logic. Fight a return for refund on principle, but I wouldn't (and have not) refused return for refund on physically undamaged. Just state to shipper it is lithium as required and label appropriately.

See above. Do you keep dangerous goods rated boxes around? You're looking at around $100 in packing materials, alone, and no shipping company will pick that stuff up from you unless you're in their system as a trained dangerous goods shipper. It's quite the process and involves a few hundred dollars of training as well.

IEven then, any authority looking at them would see a battery pack so you could still suffer legal ramifications even though there’s little to no chance they could ignite. There’s still flammable solvent inside so that could be an issue but chances of ignition very slim.

Right - I've not found exceptions for drained batteries. A battery is a battery.

Well imo puffy didn't equate to damaged in shipping terms. . . .

And you're not in any position to make those decisions, and your views on hobby lipo packs are suspect anyway.

Keep in mind sellers are shipping this stuff all the time, often 'defective', often not properly marked, and very often not very safely packaged. . . .

And they do get busted on a somewhat regular basis.

Stated above: "there are clear shipping guidelines".
I assume that should be so, but does anyone have a link?

At least in the US, 49CFR is what governs lithium battery shipping. I linked the whole text of it above.

Internationally, you're likely subject to the IATA regulations : http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Documents/lithium-battery-guidance-document-2016-en.pdf is a summary of the current state, though not the actual regulations.

From there:

Lithium batteries, identified by the manufacturer as being defective for safety
reasons, or that have been damaged, that have the potential of producing a
dangerous evolution of heat, fire or short circuit are forbidden for transport (e.g. those
being returned to the manufacturer for safety reasons).

And that's more likely what's applicable to the UK.

Im in a similar situation.
I bought a couple Nissan Leaf modules off ebay.. BIG lipo batteries, in a thin aluminum case
The dumb person stuck them in a box and mailed them USPS flat rate. No padding other than a piece of cardboard inside the box.
This of course, crushed the first time they tipped the box sideways, and the cells were bashed around.

Now I have two damaged modules. I cant ship them back. I cant use them. I am just out $200.

You're a buyer on eBay. File a item not as described claim and you'll get your money back. That said, you should also report the seller for shipping lithium in a USPS flat rate box. USPS does not like lithium.

 

[izeman]

...Lithium cells or batteries, that have been damaged or identified by the manufacturer as being defective for safety reasons, that have the potential of producing a dangerous evolution of heat, fire, or short circuit (e.g., those being returned to the manufacturer for safety reasons).

without being a lawyer, i guess that's the important point. if you discharge the cell to 0V and then short circuit it, there is NO energy left in the cell, so it's in NO way dangerous, CAN'T produce heat or fire, or short cicuit (as it already is *ggg*).

 

[MrDude_1]

Im in a similar situation.
I bought a couple Nissan Leaf modules off ebay.. BIG lipo batteries, in a thin aluminum case
The dumb person stuck them in a box and mailed them USPS flat rate. No padding other than a piece of cardboard inside the box.
This of course, crushed the first time they tipped the box sideways, and the cells were bashed around.

Now I have two damaged modules. I cant ship them back. I cant use them. I am just out $200.

You're a buyer on eBay. File a item not as described claim and you'll get your money back. That said, you should also report the seller for shipping lithium in a USPS flat rate box. USPS does not like lithium.

oh its already filed... I will get my money back if he doesnt contest it or anything. Or if he starts communicating he can properly package and ship me replacements.

 

[Syonyk]

without being a lawyer, i guess that's the important point. if you discharge the cell to 0V and then short circuit it, there is NO energy left in the cell, so it's in NO way dangerous, CAN'T produce heat or fire, or short cicuit (as it already is *ggg*).

I'll let you try and explain that to the postal inspector who knows nothing about lithium batteries when they come knocking at your door.

 

[nutnspecial]

^^^ Meh, lol.

I stand corrected, 49CFR does have regulations for how one goes about shipping damaged lithium. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?no ... 5&rgn=div8

(f) Damaged, defective, or recalled cells or batteries. Lithium cells or batteries, that have been damaged or identified by the manufacturer as being defective for safety reasons, that have the potential of producing a dangerous evolution of heat, fire, or short circuit (e.g., those being returned to the manufacturer for safety reasons) may be transported by highway, rail or vessel only, and must be packaged as follows:

(1) Each cell or battery must be placed in individual, non-metallic inner packaging that completely encloses the cell or battery;

(2) The inner packaging must be surrounded by cushioning material that is non-combustible, non-conductive, and absorbent; and

(3) Each inner packaging must be individually placed in one of the following packagings meeting the applicable requirements of part 178, subparts L, M, P and Q of this subchapter at the Packing Group I level:

(i) Metal (4A, 4B, 4N), wooden (4C1, 4C2, 4D, 4F), or solid plastic (4H2) box;

(ii) Metal (1A2, 1B2, 1N2), plywood (1D), or plastic (1H2) drum; or

(iii) For a single battery or for a single battery contained in equipment, the following rigid large packagings are authorized:

(A) Metal (50A, 50B, 50N);

(B) Rigid plastic (50H);

(C) Plywood (50D); and

(4) The outer package must be marked with an indication that the package contains a “Damaged/defective lithium ion battery” and/or “Damaged/defective lithium metal battery” as appropriate.

This clears it up for me, thanks.
Afaict, essentially no matter what the defect is, if you're returning for such a reason that automatically places the battery in the above categorizations. Not 100% sure, but it sounds like a cardboard box, inside a lipo bag, padded inside a plywood or metal container could be 'legal'.

__________And I do agree that a fully discharged and shorted battery, though technically still holding classification of 'battery' (. . . . and therefore likely a 'damaged or defective' one), is volumes less dangerous to ship than any of the same size/chemistry that have a charge, in the best of condition. If going thru all that trouble though I don't even see why the seller would even want it back.


__________ also, on the ebay thing: they are a pita to deal with compared to amazon fulfilled stuff. I just had a problem last month and the seller wouldn't reimburse me for my choice of shipping. I'm not spending an hour of MY time (and auto mileage) to return a product YOU listed with important details completely wrong.

your views on hobby lipo packs are suspect anyway.

While technically true (because I would never want to be 'unquestionable'), I beg pardon?

I think I'm pretty respectful.


I treat them like the sexy little devils they are :wink:

 

[jimmyhackers]

wow. lot of replies.

the ebay shop has agreed to send me a new battery no quibbles

and i dont have to send the defective one with a puffed cell back.
they didnt even ask for a picture despite me taking one to send.

i just have to turn it into a 5s then think of a use for a 5s battery :s

thanks for the help guys