Nine Continent 2806 (9x6) and 2807 (9x7) real world wh/mi

SamTexas

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I'm considering my first DD hub. 9C hubs appear to be very popular, so I assume that they are reliable.

If you own or owned one of these hubs, I would appreciate some real world numbers so I can decide which one to get, if any. The info I'm looking for are:

Total weight (bike & rider), lbs
Hub model, 9x6 or 9x7
Front or rear hub
Battery nominal voltage and capacity, V and Ah
Energy consumption, NO PEDALING, wh/mi
Average speed for the above wh/mi, mph

While you're at it, feel free to add your impression of the hub as well. I understand that they don't free wheel well compared to a geared hub. But how much resistance are we talking here?

Thanks.
 
i don't have any ca data as i just recieved mine and then removed my stock rear 9x7 in a 26"
how does 20000 km's in 2 years grab you...and it still works just the stock rim and spokes are in need of replacement
 
Hey SamT, Wasp has testified to the ruggedness of this motor for sure. Here are some "REAL WORLD" numbers - (1) 218lbs. (bike "AND" rider) - (2) 9c (9x7) rear - (3) 24s2p 5000mah ( 1 kilowatthour ) (4) 43 watthours per mile (5) average speed 'usually' 19-20mph (6) max speed 'usually' 41-42mph (7) average cycle 17-18 miles.... IMO you can't go wrong w/ a 9continent...Mark 8)
 
Thanks Wasp and Mark for the info.

geetarboy said:
Here are some "REAL WORLD" numbers - (1) 218lbs. (bike "AND" rider) - (2) 9c (9x7) rear - (3) 24s2p 5000mah ( 1 kilowatthour ) (4) 43 watthours per mile (5) average speed 'usually' 19-20mph...
43wh/mi at 19-20mph is unusually high. Is your route very hilly?
 
SamTexas said:
Thanks Wasp and Mark for the info.

geetarboy said:
Here are some "REAL WORLD" numbers - (1) 218lbs. (bike "AND" rider) - (2) 9c (9x7) rear - (3) 24s2p 5000mah ( 1 kilowatthour ) (4) 43 watthours per mile (5) average speed 'usually' 19-20mph...
43wh/mi at 19-20mph is unusually high. Is your route very hilly?
Not really, I just rode it like a motorcycle and did not have 'regen' for that set-up. I have regen now and it adds 5-6% to my range. I think your style of riding has alot to do with your range. Slower take-offs and coasting more can really make a difference.
 
Yeah, that does sound a bit on the high side for street.

Style of riding makes a huge difference, as do hills if you don't come back down them on the same battery cycle. What I find takes my usual 35 ish wh/mi to 45 wh/mi instantly is a route with stop signs. Even if you don't actually stop, you keep slowing up and looking. The other one that will do the trick is a headwind of 20 mph or more, of course.

Sam, you want precise numbers that don't really exist for most riders. But for riders up to 200 pounds, on non recumbent bikes, running 20 amp controllers, traveling 25 mph, pedaling modestly at best unless climbing a steep hill, the range seems to be somewhere from 30 wh/mi to 50 wh/mi. The route, riding style, and weather account for the huge range in the numbers.

To answer your specifc question of how does winding affect wh/mi, pretty much it doesn't. When I first got a CA, I tested all my motors with it. I rode a 4 mile circuit, all the same day, in the same weather. I never pedaled a stroke the whole way. I put on full throttle at the two stops, and then traveled at exactly 20 mph with all the motors. Testing an Aotema with a fast winding, a 9x7 9c with a medium winding, and a small 400 watt gearmotor, I found nearly identical wh/mi from all of them. Right around 31-32 wh/mi All had 20 amp controllers, and were run with the same 48v battery. I weigh about 170, and the bikes range from 70-90 pounds. Since this test involved pretty flat terrain, and few stops, bike weight did not matter much. Add a steep hill, and fast windings suck a ton of power and make it into heat.

Your variations in wh/mi are going to come from weather, and how many times you start and stop, and whether you pedal first at a stop. Not the winding. Of course, if you haul ass on the fast winding you're going to use more. Of course, if you lug that fast winding up a steep hill you will use more. And if you have a lot of stops with that fast winding you will use more. That's why I prefer slower windings for nearly all my riding. I'm not looking to crash faster when I street ride, so the slow windings are fast enough for me.

Later on, after that initial test, I looked at wh/mi with my slower 9c motors. Again, on a ride maintaining a 20 mph street cruise, wh/mi was about the same. But when looking at a ride climbing hills, or doing lots of bouncing around between 5 mph and 15 mph, the wh/mi is much lower on the slow winding motors than similar riding with a 9x7. With these slow motors on my dirt bike, I see just about 45 wh/mi max, doing hard dirt riding. It seems to matter little if I use a 72v 20 amp controller or a 48v 20 amp controller. But If I put a 72v 40 amp controller on, then I see low 50's for wh/ mi. Stands to reason, climbing short steep hills at 3000 watts is gonna cost you.

Regardng the cogging, it's enough to make you sweat, if you have a slighly uphill ride home after you run a battery down. If you can slow down in time, then you only need about 50 w of power to not only remove all resistance, but add enough assist to make pedaling a 90 pound pannier loaded bike 10 mph tolerable. If you want only a mild assist to really stretch range, ride with a 100w or so throttle setting. You should be able to go about 12-13 mph for incredible distances at that wattage. Only when you come to a big hill will you need to use as much as 300 w to climb. Climbing a big hill that slow though, a 2810 would be a better choice.
 
Thanks dogman

dogman said:
Sam, you want precise numbers that don't really exist for most riders.
Unfortunately you're correct. Most riders never really measure anything, just wild estimates. Pretty normal I guess and not too different from car drivers. My estimate is that less than 5% of car owners know their real world gas mileage.
But I'm optimistic. I would love to hear from that less than 5% group. I'm sure they are out there, measuring every 10th of a wh looking for the highest efficiency.

dogman said:
If you can slow down in time, then you only need about 50 w of power to not only remove all resistance, but add enough assist to make pedaling a 90 pound pannier loaded bike 10 mph tolerable.
Would it be fair to say that 25w (half of 50)is needed to overcome the cogging without adding any assist?

I reread Justin's cross-Canada summary and here's what he reported:
22.2wh/mile at an avg speed of 20.9mph for the duration of the 4,416mile ride.

I know that Justin was pedalling along, but at that avg speed and on such a long trip I guesstimate that his power contribution is no more than 10%. So the actual consumption is
24.7wh/mile at an avg speed of 20.9mph
which is much more reasonable to me. However, he was using a Crystalyte 5304 and not the 9C 280x.
 
I love the 9c. I weigh in at 163 and the bike weighs 52 with battery. My setup is lighter than many, I think. I pedal all the time and average 12- 14wh/mile according to the Ca on my commute which is mostly flat but has a 1.5 mile hill at each end. I average about 20 mph over the distance. I have let others ride my bike and most of them average closer to 17-20wh pedaling.
The only thing I don’t like about the 9c is the buzz type noise it makes at low speed. I often pedal up to speed or just use minor assist at low speed to avoid the buzz. Oh and while they don't freewheel. The drag is not any worse that riding into a mild breeze, plus you can add just a couple watts with the throttle to overcome any drag.
 
Thanks dougnutz.

Which 9c do you have, 2806 or 2807? And what is the nominal voltage of your battery?

The buzz you heard at low speed: Are you sure it's coming from the 9c motor? Could it be coming from the controller? I have a similar problem with my 350W geared hub kit. At first I thought it was coming from the hub motor, but it was and is ACTUALLY coming from the controller (I'm 100% sure).

When you let other people ride your bike, did they pedal along or did the 9c do all the work?
 
Rear 2806 9 continent on Trek MB frame
48v 8ah LiMn

I'm reasonaly sure the sound comes from the motor. I know that may others have posted about the low speed noise made by the 9c so I'm reasonably sure. Unfortunately the location of my controller makes it really hard to test that theory. I'll try to figure it out and let you know for sure. But to your other questions Yes the people I let ride my bike pedaled, pretty much all the time though they are not regular bikers. To date no one has ridden my bike without pedaling but I can on the way home and I'll let you know what the power consumption is like at 20 mph with out pedalling.
 
dougnutz said:
I'm reasonaly sure the sound comes from the motor. I know that may others have posted about the low speed noise made by the 9c so I'm reasonably sure. Unfortunately the location of my controller makes it really hard to test that theory. I'll try to figure it out and let you know for sure.
Great. I'm just saying that on mine, the noise comes from the controller. On mine, I can touch my controller and actually feel the vibration when the buzz in on. But yes, do let me know when you have isolated the noise source on yours.

dougnutz said:
...but I can on the way home and I'll let you know what the power consumption is like at 20 mph with out pedalling.
I would really appreciate that info. Thanks.
 
GCinDC said:
70 + 170 lbs. 60wh on the 9x7 last i checked on a typical (agressive) 6 mile commute...
60wh/mile??? That's about as much as a 150cc ICE motorcycle. I cannot even imagine what your speed or acceleration rate are. They must be mind boggling.

Unless you meant 60wh for the 6 mile commute, but that would equate to only 10wh/mi. Definitely not correct for an aggressive riding style.
 
Not 9C but a BMC V2 for comparison and I have done the math on a couple of my well traveled routes. Top speed is 30-35 while taking a full lane to get past the freeway on ramp, where the bike lane magically disappears, for a hundred yards or so and most the rest at 18-20 with a rise and fall of about 300ft. I pedal lightly from stop signs, lights and up the a couple of the steepest hills. Best wh/mi near 21 averages more like 26. A not so good 55 wh/mi when I'm in hurry to get to werq and lunch and back. The 2p18S a123 m1 battery pack can last anywhere from 5-6 miles all the way up to 12-13 depending on how I choose to ride.
 
SamTexas said:
dougnutz said:
I'm reasonaly sure the sound comes from the motor. I know that may others have posted about the low speed noise made by the 9c so I'm reasonably sure. Unfortunately the location of my controller makes it really hard to test that theory. I'll try to figure it out and let you know for sure.
Great. I'm just saying that on mine, the noise comes from the controller. On mine, I can touch my controller and actually feel the vibration when the buzz in on. But yes, do let me know when you have isolated the noise source on yours.

dougnutz said:
...but I can on the way home and I'll let you know what the power consumption is like at 20 mph with out pedalling.
I would really appreciate that info. Thanks.

At 20 mph, on level, with no pedaling I used right at 30wh +-1 . I also felt the controller during take off but i didn't detect any vibration. I'm pretty sure the motor is making the buzz but I will try to find out for sure.
 
dougnutz said:
At 20 mph, on level, with no pedaling I used right at 30wh +-1 . I also felt the controller during take off but i didn't detect any vibration. I'm pretty sure the motor is making the buzz but I will try to find out for sure.
Invaluable data! Thank you.

My total bike weight is 184lbs (49+135). So mine is 31lbs lighter than yours. At an avg of 18.5mph (over a 5 mile range) on flat terrain, no wind, my consumption is 15.3wh/mi, no pedaling. I'll add some ballast to bring the total weight up to 215. I'll also bring up the voltage of the battery so I can do 20mph avg (again over a 5 mile range) to see what the consumption is at that weight/speed. If you're interested in the number, do let me know. I will try to do it sometime next week.
 
9x7 winding 325lbs 66v Nominal
End of video CA results from my past rides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSIQJ9emtyk#t=17m46s
Moderate Mixed Terrain 15-20mph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdNgfb2hgoU#t=11m13s
Lots of Hills WOT High Speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxYII3J--Vc#t=26m04s
Moderate Mixed Terrain 15-20mph

GM 9x5 winding at 96v Lots of Hills WOT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yujThBuy-cM#t=6m59s
GM 9x5 winding 72v Flat Paved Trail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=IPReyILBeg4

Clyte 5303 66v WOT riding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K27wpKPfBGg#t=10m13s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIR4Q0MTq0w#t=10m02s
 
SamTexas said:
Thank you icecube57. Very precise data!

Good thing is you have video to see the terrain and possible pick a video that matches ur potential situation.

I had a long ride. A slightly shorter more fast paced intense ride. Super intense short ride. Flats and hills.
 
icecube57 said:
SamTexas said:
Thank you icecube57. Very precise data!

Good thing is you have video to see the terrain and possible pick a video that matches ur potential situation.

I had a long ride. A slightly shorter more fast paced intense ride. Super intense short ride. Flats and hills.

All setups were performance tuned 45A-60A. Speed switches were used on the longer rides to be more efficent. But you have agressive WOT data.
 
I was thinking of this thread on yesterdays ride and wrote down the CA info. Ride weight 270lbs (heavy bike :mrgreen: ), WOT, almost no peddling, a couple of realatively short 5% grades and one 300yard 20% (some peddleing here) 2806, 36v 20a ping, 11.78miles, 8.59ah, 43.5 wh/m.
 
john7700 said:
I was thinking of this thread on yesterdays ride and wrote down the CA info. Ride weight 270lbs (heavy bike :mrgreen: ), WOT, almost no peddling, a couple of realatively short 5% grades and one 300yard 20% (some peddleing here) 2806, 36v 20a ping, 11.78miles, 8.59ah, 43.5 wh/m.
Thanks John. What was the CA's average speed for that ride?
 
john7700 said:
I was thinking of this thread on yesterdays ride and wrote down the CA info. Ride weight 270lbs (heavy bike :mrgreen: ), WOT, almost no peddling, a couple of realatively short 5% grades and one 300yard 20% (some peddleing here) 2806, 36v 20a ping, 11.78miles, 8.59ah, 43.5 wh/m.
Average speed?
 
SamTexas said:
john7700 said:
I was thinking of this thread on yesterdays ride and wrote down the CA info. Ride weight 270lbs (heavy bike :mrgreen: ), WOT, almost no peddling, a couple of realatively short 5% grades and one 300yard 20% (some peddleing here) 2806, 36v 20a ping, 11.78miles, 8.59ah, 43.5 wh/m.
Thanks John. What was the CA's average speed for that ride?

And here I was thinking I really couldn't make much more detailed report :D Didn't check that. The bat. was really peppy yesterday (hottest day of the year so far) top flats speed was 25.7-25.9, normally25.1-25.3. I'll look again some time and report back


J
 
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