Team Hybrid new hubbie, why no info here on ES?

J

John in CR

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I just ran across a zero response post by Mark Higgon from Team Hybrid in the EV business section that they are introducing 2 new motors at Eurobike, a 1000W that is 3.5kg and a 2kg 400W model. Both claim over 90% efficiency, lower cogging, and great torque, 55nm and 22nm respectively. :shock: Are these maybe the first axial flux hub motor? Imagine the potential if they can be over-volted and can handle higher currents.

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/32616/Team-Hybrid-to-launch-Falco-E-motors-at-Eurobike
http://bikereviews.com/2010/08/falco-emotors/

Is anyone here in good with Mark? Let's see about a group buy or arranging some beta testing. If the performance is real it represents a significant step forward in ebike motor tech, so let's not let these motors go the way of the Puma that was little more than a rumor for years due in large part to controller issues. Mark has only 4 posts, so I don't think he realizes the value of ES. Let's change that for the good of both.

John
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm is it time to try a Falcon e-motor?
 
Yes very interesting!
 
They are just down the road from me, I did give them a ring... no prices as of yet. Hope like most things in the UK it's not a rip off price.

I'll be testing one if the price is good for sure.
 
Hey Spacey.....what's the update on Falco ebikes availability on your side of the pond?

Thanks.

Kit
S.CA USA
 
I did speak with them, but to be honest they seemed very expensive as with anything made in the UK.

I am sure the quality would be top notch but the price for me was too much to consider for what I personally need.
 
Technology

Falco direct drive electric propulsion (DDEP) technology has been developed after
extensive market study and research and development. Falco’s DDEP uses unique five-
phase permanent magnet motor architecture and winding design to establish superior
performance over existng three-phase motors. The exceptional improvements are 25%
reduction in motor and inverter weight, 10% increase in efficiency, reduction of cogging
torque to zero, and increase in power and torque density by 30%.

Falco’s command console technology is based on low power wireless communication
with integrated eBike, bicycle and fitness functions.

Falco’s eBike components have features such as precise power and torque control,
onboard data storage, PC diagnostic interface, detachable, sleek, compact & pocket-size
command console, LCD backlight, regeneration, six cycling modes, nine fitness modes,
turbo mode, security mode etc
 
Spacey said:
I did speak with them, but to be honest they seemed very expensive as with anything made in the UK.

I am sure the quality would be top notch but the price for me was too much to consider for what I personally need.
Click to expand...

I doubt very much whether it's actually "made" in the UK. In the past, Team Hybrid have imported Chinese motors, controllers etc and re-badged/integrated them into their own products. A friend has one of the their clever clip-on hub motor wheel chair trike adapters and it is a very neat bit of design that works well, but was using an off-the-shelf parts adapted to do the job. I'm sure they have a close tie-in with the manufacturer, and have no doubt they're adding value and providing a service to customers that you just can't get by directly importing, but as you rightly say their prices do look high. A few years ago I tried to get a quote from them for a hub motor. I waited weeks, got no response, so imported a Crystalyte via Justin in Vancouver, right across the other side of the world from me (like Spacey, Team Hybrid aren't far from where I live). When their price did come through it was far more than buying from Justin anyway, even taking into account shipping and import charges.. I hope their service has improved since then.

Jeremy
 
It's an interesting design, but the integrated controller in the hub is a questionable selling point, in my view.

Putting electronics down in the hub, where it's hard to seal them up properly and where they will be subjected to more extreme temperature cycling (with the inevitable expansion and contraction of internal air, risking the sucking in of damp air as the motor cools) seems a backward step. I can understand the move to five phases to reduce torque ripple and cogging, maybe this drove them to put the controller in the wheel - feeding five phase wires and 7 sensor wires out of a hub would be challenging.

The wireless control seems a bit of a fashion or design statement, rather than something useful. I hate to think how many additional unwanted failure modes it introduces (as if we don't have enough already with ebike stuff..........).

Apart from being five phase, the motor seems to be a conventional direct drive radial one, so nothing really new or innovative there. I'm not sure that five phases will be any more efficient than three, either, so coupled with the parasitic power needed to run the wireless link and fancy display it might mean that the overall efficiency of this system is lower than a more conventional arrangement.

Jeremy
 
If they want to really get some business, they should offer a trial motor to any one of the many testing guru's here to beta test. If they are selling fine in their own niche, then I imagine they won't bother, but if they want to offer a more affordable version to the "every man" instead of just to the wealthy, I'm sure in the long run they will make more profit and in the very least get more exposure.

Where is the post you mentioned? For sale new?
 
A while ago I purchased a Puma motor from Mark. He was great to deal with, but shipping to the US added 100$ plus to the cost of a motor. I had a motor go bad and he sent me a new for the price of shipping. I had a good experience with Team Hybrid.
 
The Falco motor appears with a different supplier in this thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24055

I don't have any difficulty with the number of phases being other than 3. After all, we use 1, 2 and 4 phase systems in other branches of electronics. I just wonder if the benefits are worth the complexity. Maybe its a useful way of sharing the controller currents around an array of FETs. I would also be very interested in the harmonic issues.

Nick
 
I tried to get one for testing, but they only sell to bicycle manufacturers and dealers...
Bad for them! :|
 
Tiberius said:
The Falco motor appears with a different supplier in this thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24055

I don't have any difficulty with the number of phases being other than 3. After all, we use 1, 2 and 4 phase systems in other branches of electronics. I just wonder if the benefits are worth the complexity. Maybe its a useful way of sharing the controller currents around an array of FETs. I would also be very interested in the harmonic issues.

Nick
Click to expand...

By a bizarre coincidence I think this maybe another UK supplier I contacted for a quote a couple of years ago, if they are the same company in Marlborough that were selling the Tongxin motor.

There seems to be a trend here, if it is the same company, as I emailed them for a price and some info on fitting the Tongxin (albeit with their label, Nano) on it to the 20" wheel for my recumbent. I didn't get a reply for weeks, and so bought a Tongxin motor and controller from Justin (again.....) and had it laced into a rim at my LBS. Around a month after my initial email, and after I'd actually received the parts from Justin (two days from Vancouver!) I got a reply from the Nano company - the price was nearly double what I paid for the same motor and controller from Justin, even including the shipping, duty etc.

Why is it that we can't buy ebike parts in the UK for a reasonable price? How is it that Justin, in Vancouver, can run a very successful business selling imported ebike parts, and even sell them to the UK, for a fraction of the price UK vendors are asking?

I would dearly like to support a competent UK business, but not if I have to pay double the going price.

Jeremy
 
It 'looks like' they have a disc flange from the very beginning (good added value to see, very small cost added to the assembly line). Perhaps skewing the magnets slightly and going to 5-phase would reduce cogging significantly, no reason to think it wouldn't.

Even if the internal controller is a 'fail' as far as the buying public is concerned (Magic-Pie, compared to 9C), it shouldnt be too hard to hack an external controller from a used Ebay Falcon that the owner fried?...
 
Jeremy Harris said:
Tiberius said:
The Falco motor appears with a different supplier in this thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24055

I don't have any difficulty with the number of phases being other than 3. After all, we use 1, 2 and 4 phase systems in other branches of electronics. I just wonder if the benefits are worth the complexity. Maybe its a useful way of sharing the controller currents around an array of FETs. I would also be very interested in the harmonic issues.

Nick
Click to expand...

By a bizarre coincidence I think this maybe another UK supplier I contacted for a quote a couple of years ago, if they are the same company in Marlborough that were selling the Tongxin motor.

There seems to be a trend here, if it is the same company, as I emailed them for a price and some info on fitting the Tongxin (albeit with their label, Nano) on it to the 20" wheel for my recumbent. I didn't get a reply for weeks, and so bought a Tongxin motor and controller from Justin (again.....) and had it laced into a rim at my LBS. Around a month after my initial email, and after I'd actually received the parts from Justin (two days from Vancouver!) I got a reply from the Nano company - the price was nearly double what I paid for the same motor and controller from Justin, even including the shipping, duty etc.

Why is it that we can't buy ebike parts in the UK for a reasonable price? How is it that Justin, in Vancouver, can run a very successful business selling imported ebike parts, and even sell them to the UK, for a fraction of the price UK vendors are asking?

I would dearly like to support a competent UK business, but not if I have to pay double the going price.

Jeremy
Click to expand...


Many times have i noticed that! Things costs 100USD in USA and 100EUR in Europe or just under 100 GBP! How can that be possible with different exchange rates!?
That is definitely not fair :cry:

The guy who replied to me was Rakesh from Falco motors..
 
Tiberius said:
I think it may be the same person, name of Tony.

Nick
Click to expand...

I've just checked, the chap I tried to contact was called Simon Mills, although the company does seem to have been based in Marlborough, which may just be a coincidence. I enquired about the Tongxin on 9th Oct 2007 and got a reply from them on 8th Nov 2007 (they are around 20 miles away from me.....). Not only were ebikes.ca half the price, but they responded within 24 hours, rather than within 30 days, and delivered within two days, all the way from Vancouver (some 4,700 odd miles away from me........) .

Jeremy
 
Got to agree with this, did take a while before anyone got back to me..... was hoping that being close would be cheaper. Alas as with anything in UK it's not the case. Not so sure how 5 phase wires are going to be a huge (if any), improvement over 3 Phase wires. My experience with internal controllers (Magic Pie), has been less than great.

But if they can pull it off more power to them, just wish they were at a more affordable price for me to put them into my builds.
 
The price for sample of Hx Motor 5‐Phase 250W ‐ 1000 Watt and Hx Display ‐ w/o Battery would be:
$ 695.00
€ 550.00
£ 450.00

excl shipping

If we wanna organize a group buy, I will negotiate the price with them.

Let me know guys!
 
Jeremy Harris said:
Why is it that we can't buy ebike parts in the UK for a reasonable price? How is it that Justin, in Vancouver, can run a very successful business selling imported ebike parts, and even sell them to the UK, for a fraction of the price UK vendors are asking?

I would dearly like to support a competent UK business, but not if I have to pay double the going price.
Click to expand...

Part of the problem is VAT. A UK supplier is going to be VAT legal, whereas buying small items from overseas we all hope we won't get stung for the VAT and often get away with it. By the time you've got a bad exchange rate from the credit card company, paid shipping and VAT there's not quite such a big difference in price.[1]

Having said that, I do wish there was a good UK supplier for E-Bike bits. From Bafang motors to throttles to PAS sensors. All the little bits that make up a DIY project.

Last year I paid a visit to Marlborough to try and find the guy who's doing the Nano and stuff. I couldn't find him but I did find the bicycle shop which is kind of his outlet. It's just your typical small town bicycle shop and they do occasional E-Bike conversions using bits sourced by him. It turns out he's your classic unreliable Brit eccentric working out of his shed at the end of his garden. The guys in the shop said he doesn't often respond to phone calls or emails. If your retail outlet is telling potential customers this, I'm not surprised by your experience.

[1]With VAT now at 20%, I shall mostly be buying stuff direct from overseas. And especially from Chinese and Hong Kong sources on eBay that have a drop shipper in the Channel Islands or hidden away in Chinatown.
 
jbond said:
Jeremy Harris said:
Why is it that we can't buy ebike parts in the UK for a reasonable price? How is it that Justin, in Vancouver, can run a very successful business selling imported ebike parts, and even sell them to the UK, for a fraction of the price UK vendors are asking?

I would dearly like to support a competent UK business, but not if I have to pay double the going price.
Click to expand...

Part of the problem is VAT. A UK supplier is going to be VAT legal, whereas buying small items from overseas we all hope we won't get stung for the VAT and often get away with it.

Having said that, I do wish there was a good UK supplier for E-Bike bits. From Bafang motors to throttles to PAS sensors. All the little bits that make up a DIY project.
Click to expand...

As it happens, I paid VAT and duty on the parts from Justin (for some reason packages from ebikes.ca ALWAYS seem to get hit for duty and tax, I've no idea why) and the price was still half the price of the UK supplier.

As you rightly way, it would be great to have a reliable and affordable UK source for all this stuff. It's infuriating to have to wait weeks to get stuff from halfway around the planet, especially when it's something small, but essential.

Jeremy
 
I am in a partnership with my business partner running small sports online shop in the UK. Our turnover is too small to be VAT eligible. But it is easier to avoid customs taxes when you buy something from far east as a private person.
What i noticed is that as a private person I put the delivery address to my work address [company] i get stung. If i put residential address, it is much less likely :D

But now with the crisis it seems to be harder and harder!!! they look for money everywhere :evil:
 
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