To e or not to e !?!? help a newbie plz.

[rrnz]

Hi All

I have a dilemma, I love cycling but a year ago moved 45 km (30 miles) out of town and just not game enough to commute to work on a bike.

For a year I have been suffering in traffic jams, contributing my little Starlet to the congestion. Last night however a buddy showed me a you-tube vid of a Stealth Bomber, which was a Eurika moment for me - maybe I could use combined pedal and electric power instead of fossil fuels in my daily commute. I spend about $3k a year on petrol (yerp, its that expensive here in NZ) and would not mind spending equivalent to a years worth of petrol on an alternative...

Here's the questions - is the contemporary e-bike technology good enough to support a consistent (150+ days a year) 60 -70 mile daily round trip commute. How long would it take? Is it better to get a kit or a pre-assembled bike? Any recommendations for a set-up?(I ride trails quite a bit and looking for a dual purpose - commute and off-road).

I have a GT Peace rigid single speed 29er which is my favorite bike and a rather heavy K2 Tirade 4.0 dual suspension 26'', which bike would be better suited for a conversion?

Any thoughts much appreciated

Thanks heaps!

RR

 

[dogman dan]

I think 30 miles one way is just too much biking. I understand you really ride, but that's a heap of wear and tear on your ass alone, on top of work too.

You will break down sometimes, and a 30 mile ride home on a 70 pound bike is no fun. To go fast that distance, you might push close to 100 pounds of bike.

And, you won't average 30 mph without drawing a LOT of attention to that illegal homemade moped that goes 40 mph. So you are looking at up to 4 hours a day for the commute. I'd call that way too much, unless you actually sleep at work. ( You could be a fireman for example, and need to work out daily anyway)

Happily, there is a compromise that worked good for me. When I still didn't have a good enough motor to go my full hill climb home, I put the bike on a strong car rack, and parked at the bottom of the hill. You can do the same sort of thing. Just do the commute half way by bike, and put half as many miles on your car just like that. Take the car all the way when the weather is truly horrible.

I found a 15 mile one way commute at about 20-25 mph perfect for me. Took about 50 min with the stops on my route. I actually didn't like it much shorter, and definitely wanted the ride to last 30 min minimum. The bike was plenty reliable for that distance, and a few times I had problems I couldn't fix on the road, it was usually just 2-7 miles left in the ride home with no motor.

Any typical kit with 500-1000w gets you the 20-30 mph speed you need, and about 700 watt hours of battery will go about 20 miles reliably. You will need that extra few wh on the bad weather days. A 700wh battery, 36v 20 ah for example, is easy to carry. A bigger one to go 30 miles is a bitch to carry unless you go with a cargo bike.

So make your commute 15-20 miles by bike, depending on where a good place to leave your car is located.

 

[footloose]

I think 30 miles one way is just too much biking.

+1.

Ebike technology (drivetrains and energy storage) have made big progress, and show signs of bright future.
Unfortunately, progress on the butt/saddle interface... hasn't kept up.

I do something like Dogman suggests. When I "ride" to work... really, means I take my bike by car down to the train, then ride train for many miles, then ride the bike for last miles to office. Takes longer than just driving would... but I get to read a book on the train, then ride a few miles to work. At end of day get to blow off steam with a bike ride, then train ride. Not ideal but not bad.

Could you do something similar?

By the way, where in NZ are you, and what is your commute? I spent a couple weeks in NZ a few years ago, and wow, much of what I saw looked very nice for riding. Urban commuting will always suck... but is part of yours outside the congestion? If so, ride on and just tell your boss you're going to be late :wink: If you are in one of the beautiful ex-urban areas I saw... then I'd like to job share, please.

 

[wesnewell]

I think 30 miles is too far too, but it can be done easily with the right stuff. Only big problem I see is the law. Is a 40mph ebike legal there? If it is, neither of your bikes would work well. You need a full recumbent bike or trike to get both the speed and mileage you'd need. $3K is enough if you can get by the law and don't mind an hour ride. Use this simulator to determine if you want to persue this.
http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/

 

[-dg]

Seems like everyone jumped in on the nay side, but lets explore this a bit before giving up.

How much time can you allot to the commute? That will determine the speed needed which will determine the power required which will determine the battery size and cost.

Can you recharge at work? If so you don't need 70 mile range, you need 35 mile range, which is a much easier problem to solve.

How strong a cyclist are you? When I was racing, I tried a 90 mile commute that had 3000 feet of climbing and headwinds on the return. A bit too much I could handle the ride, or work, but not both. It was the wind that really did it though. The point is, your commute is a pretty long ride, but not out of reach for a dedicated cyclist. Any power you put in will also reduce the required battery size.

 

[dogman dan]

Not even much of a strain for a racer, 60 miles a day. I see some amateur racers in their thirties go by every morning commuting to work. I don't know exactly where they start from, but to where they are going to work, it's 24 miles from the center of town to White Sands Missile Test Facility. Just one hill along the way, a huge steep mountain pass with about 3000' of vertical.

So only one full vertical mile of very steep uphill per days ride. And they go by every single morning at about 5 am. Easy for them. Those guys will leave me in the dust unless I'm riding one of my very fast ebikes. The climate helps, perfect bike weather about 10 months a year, though some would argue all summer is too hot.

So maybe he's up to it. If so, a 48v 30 ah battery carried in panniers would be enough size to go 30 mph to work, then charge. And have the extra capacity needed for that horrible day with a 30 mph headwind all the way. Depending on the stops along the way, he could potentially average 25 mph, and do the ride in 2.5 hours per day. A good saddle, and bike pants for underwear, and he could handle the ass wear and tear fine if he's mostly carrying his weight on the pedals like a racer. You don't think the guys in the Tour de France sit all their weight on those seats do you?

But I still think the drive some bike some method has some merit. Still saves car costs, and allows the ride to be just right, and riding the commute packing 15 pounds or less of battery beats the hell out of riding all loaded down with enough battery to go 30 mph for 30+ miles.

Nothing special or expensive is needed for a 15-20 mile commute, and the ride length is just right for a guy who loves to bike. 40-50 min of saddle time each way is perfect to me.

Still can take the car on the days only a fanatic would still be out in that weather.

 

[triggeraa]

Buy a scooter or motorcycle. E bikes brake down frequently with that much daily mileage. Plus you will get that e bike impounded when you wizz by the law.

 

[-dg]

Not even much of a strain for a racer, 60 miles a day. I see some amateur racers in their thirties go by every morning commuting to work. I don't know exactly where they start from, but to where they are going to work, it's 24 miles from the center of town to White Sands Missile Test Facility. Just one hill along the way, a huge steep mountain pass with about 3000' of vertical.

So only one full vertical mile of very steep uphill per days ride. And they go by every single morning at about 5 am. Easy for them. Those guys will leave me in the dust unless I'm riding one of my very fast ebikes.

Yeah. I'm an older fat guy now, but when I was racing I did the Berkeley Bike Club training rides six days a week. One never knew the route in advance, but it was certainly going to involve at least two crossings of the East bay hills (3000 feet of climbing) and 25 to 45 miles. On weekends there was usually a harder ride too.
There is nothing like being in a pace line three inches apart maintaining 32 miles an hour.

 

[glend]

If I was in your position I'd buy a recumbent bike specifically for long distance travel because I'd soon get sick of sitting on a saddle for 3 hours, day after day. So I'd be looking at a lwb recumbent like bacchetta bella or similar with zipper fairing for colder mornings. Then add bmc v4 to the back wheel and perhaps 30ah battery pack.

ebikes.ca simulator will tell you what battery ah be required. bmc at 80% power with 20ah36v gives 31kph for 80km for semi-recumbent (only 55km for mountain bike) so 30 ah battery should do fine unless you have lots of hills (1/2 it if you can recharge at work). 36V 30AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack costs $811 from ping batteries so if you get 1000 times recharge from pack and 1.1KW's of energy cost say 40 cents in charging costs, you could be looking at $1.20 costs per day for electricity and battery replacement costs (probably save that in wear and tear of car much less petrol).

Defiantly be aiming for geared hub like BMC in case the electrics brake down (still very ride-able) but it may not be legal in country you live.

 

[dogman dan]

True enough, 60 miles a day would be more comfy in a regular chair seat, and the low resistance would make the battery needs less.
Ideally, a full faired velomobile. That might take some time to put together, but a bike rack on the car is easy. Just get a tow hitch so you can get a nice strong one.

 

[LockH]

Hiya... Old ebiker here. I suppose I have written here (elsewhere on ES) about how electrical traction changed my life (almost entirely for the waaaay better)? "Back in the day" (before I went to my first "school of higher learning" - so called) I pedaled my butt off cycling/pedaled from Halifax NS to Kingston ON, and didn't roll into K until the morning of the seventh day - I blame cheap road-side wine in my water bottle, bought while traveling up the Saint Lawrence River valley. So it was no big deal pedaling over 100 miles a day. Eating four meals a day, and *still* losing weight. Most nights I carried a pup tent with me to camp overnight, and only had to "camp" in a hotel on the last night... due to... ummm... You can figure out my situation... Well, at least a few ladies in my life have said to me I "give good butt", which the French might say is a good "souvenir" of my trip.

Anyway... I sorta stumbled on electric traction (on shore) by accident. I had played with electrical things as a "high school" student, and went to my first university to graduate as an "EE" (electrical engineer), so bought my first electric traction vehicle (a standup kick scooter with lead-acid batteries, plus rear electric motor w/ chain to back wheel) to "freshen up" my knowledge of bigger batts, chargers, etc etc. The very first day I rode that vehicle I realized I maybe had in my hands something kinda special. And at some point figured out could transform urban land travel by 20th-century gas or diseasal-powered traction engines. As I was living on Toronto Island at that time, I proposed our new "tender" (passenger boat with skipper that ferried members and guests from the City to the Club on the Islands) might be powered by electric motor (no noise or stink, etc), and was quickly dismissed by most of the members (the "trip" by boat from City to Club/Islands is about one nautical mile in length, with no hills to speak of (last time I checked), and the waves get a bit "lumpy" only on some days. Anyway... I thought a bank of batteries and an electric motor might "jump" this Club into this new century. Silly me!

So yeah, one old ebiker with TWO THUMBS WAAAAY UP to electric traction/assist!

Cheers

L

PS... For some "far away" places, like some countries in Europe plus China, your question may be a bit of a "no brainer". Sorry!

 

[d8veh]

I'm with Dogman: 15 miles each way on an Ebike is nice. You don't have to go too fast. 20 miles is about the max for comfort. After that, you need a faster,more powerful bike, which makes it more like a moped, so you might as well get a moped, which will still give you all the same freedom and will work out cheaper considering both the purchase cost and running costs. A Honda DIO NSC110 will do about 150mpg (2l/100km) and go faster than an ebike.
http://www.hondamotorbikes.co.nz/bikes/scooter-and-commuter/scooter-range/2012-dio-nsc110/

 

[arkmundi]

Here's the questions - is the contemporary e-bike technology good enough to support a consistent (150+ days a year) 60 -70 mile daily round trip commute. How long would it take? Is it better to get a kit or a pre-assembled bike? Any recommendations for a set-up?(I ride trails quite a bit and looking for a dual purpose - commute and off-road).

Yea & build it yourself. You can meet your needs with the right setup. The first step, however, is the research and is most critical. If you ask questions here at ES, you'll get a lot of good informed opinion, along with a lot of, well, less so. Ultimately, you'll succeed with your project based on your own solid rearch. There are a lot of different front, rear, and mid-drive motors to choose from. But the battery is the key. My general recommendation is to go for the best quality, as reliability on the road and longevity will be enhanced. I suggest looking at the Falco kits, as in my estimation, these are the current best on the market. For battery, you'll need a high amp-hour battery, in the range of 40ah for that commute. The voltage requirement is based on the motor. The lower the voltage, the less draw, the less battery is the rule. But time & speed can matter.

 

[miro13car]

arkmundi
FALCO kits are offered already with batteries, not really so much expensive BUT FALCO can be powerd on third party battery also.
Agree FALCO would be my choice also,
for many reasons - designed by USA firm STG /same design studio as Eplus and legendary Tidal Force/ , made with real quality materials /very consistent in QC/, incredible efficient using FOC technique of controlling motor, incredible smooth 5-phase design with precise linear throttle, 5 power levels which really work /no gadgets/ mean this FALCO can bearly sip Whs =range, - to mention just the few .
But the most important to mention about FALCO which should be obvious with consumer product /not so with "popular" cheap edrives which just overheat and burn just like that/ -
it is really fail safe protected edrive hub, no burn FALCO motors ...
Tell me how many ebike kits come with 5 years warranty ?????
NONE except FALCO.
Economics tells you such kit must cost money over $2000 with battery for sure.

 

[heavymetalthunder]

Dogman has got it right about 60 miles on a E-bike as being tough on the butt. At 30 MPH for 30 miles you are looking at some serious batteries to get you that far.

 

[parajared]

I commute 32 miles a day (round trip) on a single charge, my tough butt solution was to get a recumbent (KMX typhoon). It's like riding to work in a lawn chair.

On a recumbent, your energy needs aren't that much. I used to commute drawing 1500-2000 watts carrying a whopping 1,800 watt hours in the "trunk". This weighed a LOT and was like driving a go-kart to work. I have found that for the sacrifice of just a little time (10 minutes in my case) sub 500 watts levels are totally fine for semi-athletic types. With the help of a 60t chainring I can still hit the 30s mph and do the full 30 miles using less than 600 watt hours even on windy days. For an athletic guy like yourself a low power build may be the way to go.

Check out Nader's builds; he builds his bikes in such a way that they are so light that if he runs out of juice it's not a big deal. I presume these cost something in the ballpark of $500 and I imagine he just rides around like normal and only gives himself squirts of power every now and again. Here's his thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=290115 and a few pics of his electric bikes:

 

[LockH]

Buy a scooter or motorcycle. E bikes brake down frequently with that much daily mileage. Plus you will get that e bike impounded when you wizz by the law.

Lovely... But before you "take the plunge" and buy one ("scooter" or "motorcycle"... gasoline-powered I assume? And please forgive me if I misunderstood you), ask pedestrians which one has the better smelling gasoline or diseasal exhaust...

Would be curious to hear your results. (Your other thoughts? Not really interested, personally. Sorry! If I am correct that you are advocating gas/diseasal-powered propulsion here on ES.)
L

 

[FeralDog]

Buy a scooter or motorcycle. E bikes brake down frequently with that much daily mileage. Plus you will get that e bike impounded when you wizz by the law.

Lovely... But before you "take the plunge" and buy one ("scooter" or "motorcycle"... gasoline-powered I assume? And please forgive me if I misunderstood you), ask pedestrians which one has the better smelling gasoline or diseasal exhaust...
Would be curious to hear your results. (Your other thoughts? Not really interested, personally. Sorry! If I am correct that you are advocating gas/diseasal-powered propulsion here on ES.)
L

@LockH, Do you feel the compulsive need to be a "not really interested" e-nanny?
Bio-diesel can smell like French fries, and hybrid systems are electric + fossil (or a multitude of chemistries)?
I think in context of the OP's desires, that a scooter or motorcycle is a practical and viable recommendation (though not one of this usual e-forums interest).
On pedestrian sniffing , I prefer the scent of cotton candy perfume on a beautiful exotic dancer. It cost 1$ to get close enough in my locale to get that.
That is all, carry on calmly.

 

[LockH]

Hehe... Personally, I believe two/three etc wheels are safer (for all) when the operators (and passengers) are "at risk"... They share at least some of the risk of traveling in traffic. Plus, the slower you go, the less likely you are to incur an "event" you weren't expecting. Our towns and cities might be redesigned to make distances shorter eg to get to work. Myself, I'm sorta "working" right now, as we "speak", sitting in a comfy chair, overlooking a park next to the library I am in (I have a nice view out the windows, plus one/two pretty ladies that came to sit next to me). And you?
L

 

[LockH]

 

[FeralDog]

Hehe... Personally, I believe.... Our towns and cities might be redesigned to make distances shorter eg to get to work. Myself, I'm sorta "working" right now, as we "speak", sitting in a comfy chair, overlooking a park next to the library I am in (I have a nice view out the windows, plus one/two pretty ladies that came to sit next to me). And you?
L

On topic for the OP, perhaps a hybridization of an ICE engine and an electric motor for those long distances and fuel cost?
Side note: the 1950's 18cc Lohmann was a German design micro-diesel that holds much promise for todays' bio-diesel conversion, and the power output was interesting for a bicycle application http://www.practica.org/products/under-development/micro-diesel-engine/. This hybridization may not 100% electrify the bike, but it could make a practical and economical (fuel cost/ per km?) choice for OP's transportation machine. Of course, NZ laws would apply to this variant.

{OT --- To answer lockH and the "and you" "what am I doing" part.
I am getting ready to recycle some old tires tonight by burning them with a few gallons of waste oil. I find that the smoke is more eco-friendly after dark when the neighbors can't see it. I previously "recycled" a pesky box of old NiCads today by pitching them into my neighbor's roof gutters. Out of site, out of mind! :wink:
Living in one of the most violent & murder prone cities in the USA, my 2 wheel "risk in traveling" is reduced by CCW and getting away from the part of the city that "was redesigned" by social engineering into a ghetto. Distances were made "shorter to get to work" by moving the workplaces to another country and laying off our workforce, thus the welfare check is only a mailbox away! Locally, Pretty ladies have a $5 cover charge, but only a $1 pay per view. }

 

[veloman]

30 miles wide open, or 30 miles of traffic lights/stops every mile or so? Big difference. If 30 miles of open roads, I think it could be fun. Recumbent is definitely the way to go. On my uprights, I tend to aero tuck at any decent speed, to conserve power. Doing that for an hour would get old quick.

A low recumbent would not look so crazy to be doing 30mph, because such riders already do those speeds without motor power. I think it would be more stealthly on a recumbent than doing 30 sitting upright.

You will need to invest in a good lifepo4 pack, for sure. Can you charge at work?

 

[LockH]

Plus One, re watt Master V ("veloman") said. Can only add, flags etc up high, so the nasty/quaint gasoline, etc-powered horseless carriage drivers can see you (if they bother to look up from their damn yell phones).
L