Touring Hub Motor and Battery Choices

[Ian]

Hi everyone

I've been mulling over different setups for long distance touring next year, like doing the Southern Tier route by ACA (approx 3000 miles) or possibly the trans-am which goes across central america, and thought it would be good to get some different viewpoints on the motor and battery combos for my particular way of doing it. Has anyone done these routes on an ebike yet? I'd be interested, for instance, to learn more about the charging opportunities along these routes and what's the steepest climbs on the way. My idea is for modest performance ( by ES standards) to minimize chances of electrical or engineering failure:

average 100 miles per day at 15 to 20mph average, top powered speed 20 - 22mph, 1500 watts max.
50 mile range so will need to opportunity charge during stops/lunch etc.
Keep voltage 37v - 48v
credit card tour so staying at motels, minimal gear - carried on extrawheel trailer.
bike is evg iacocca so need a rear hub motor.
Temperatures will be hot for sure some sections and rain likely in east no matter what time of year

I can see two main choices:

lightweight rig: say a 10t upgrade cellman Mac running on 37vc Lipo. Can get 40ah worth on the bike in 4 blocks of 5s 20ah. Two of the 400w passport duo chargers can pump in 10amps per 5S brick. Not too sure the MAC can hack it thermally over the long haul although the upgrades do have the temp sensor and easy to switch out gears and clutch.... Haven't ever used one so not clear on its suitability other than reviews on ES. Not too sure on using Lipo either, - have been using for a few years but its the days you get tired, forget the safety routines, and then the human error factor might come into play that concern me.

mediumweight rig: slow wind 9t or 10t DD basically a 9C or clone with 48v 30ah ping setup. This could be 3 of the 48v10ah packs all paralled using 3 of the ping 48v 5amp chargers. So heavier and no freewheeling, but plug n-play. Trying to fix a probelm Ping on the road not necessarily simple, but I can still keep going using 48v 20ah.

Anything else worth considering?

 

[adrian_sm]

My 2 cents worth;

1) DD vs Geared
Go the geared hub. In my experience they free-wheel so much better, that you are more likely to pedal & coast without the need for the electric assist that you will get better range. Also for long distance touring you are likely to be going a bit slower, and running lower power limits so the power limits of a MAC or BPM type motor should not be an issue. This is basd on my experience with a Crystalyte DD 408, and a Bafang BPM geared hub.

2) Speed vs Range
I recently was considering some touring and threw together a spreadsheet to help me understand the trade off between speed and range, considering battery capacity and charger power. You might be interested in playing with it. The conclusion I came to was that you are better off going slower, and only charging during your planned rest breaks/opportunity charge stops, rather than going faster and needing to stop to charge. Then it was just a matter of picking a battery big enough to suit your leg lengths.
Here is the thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50875

3) Reliability
If you think you might be pushing the motor thermally, due to some decent climbs, it might be worth getting the Cycle Analyst that can monitor the motor temps, and actively reduce power to protect it.

Finally. GOOD LUCK. I am jealous.

 

[mvly]

I recently did 100 miles a day on limited battery and shit heavy pedaling. One recommendations is to get a good sadal. After sitting for 8 hours or so, your behind will be hurting.

As for motor, I would go with geared and high torque because chances are you will be carrying a lot of gears and will need the torque vs the speed.

I would go for the bmc v4t or mac 10t.

Carry an extra controller and you should be set. I am not sure if the new mac are water sealled, but the bmc is.

Limit your power to less than 500w at the speed you said and I think you should be fine.

GOod lick in the touring and let us know how it goes.

 

[Nanoha]

I don't think the Mac is sealed. My 12T did not have any seals on the axles.
I would recommend a spare sensorless controller and a set of gears/clutch.
Perhaps even go with a front and rear Mac. That way you have maximum redundancy.

 

[dogman dan]

I'd vote for a fairly slow dd motor. It's just better at handling heat. My own long distance bike is set up for carrying a heavy load, so I have a 5304. I'd love to get a 5305 though. But a slower than 2807 9c would work well for you I'm sure. It doesn't have to be crazy slow, just not one that goes nearly 30 mph on 48v. The thermometer equipped HT would be good, but I think Justin only has the HS. But surely you can add the thermometer to any motor, if you get it with a new CA.

If your route has much of above 10% grades, then definitely go with two motors.

One thing you might consider, put a small gearmotor on the front wheel. Use it only on the very steepest hills, or as an emergency spare. Likely you can snag a rear wheel nearly anywhere if you have to have it. Another option for a really long trip would be having spare stuff at home, ready for a fast ship to where you are broke down. Your controller should be able to function sensorless, or maybe just carry a small spare that is sensorless. Carry some of the obvious stuff, like a few spokes, brake cables, pads.

Have a three speed switch, or cruise control. Some method of making a 15 mph cruise not require holding a throttle just so.

You are on the right track to carry 48v 30 ah of ping, or whatever. Two 15 ah pings. Test them first, and you won't have a problem on the way if they are good. It should give you 70 miles range at 15mph. Any more than 30 pounds of battery will suck, but having a trailer to carry more might work ok. Two 5 amps chargers, so you get charged in about 3 hours. That makes 100 miles a day quite possible with a longish siesta to charge someplace. 70 miles no charge.

Not only will the seat need to be perfect, you also need a perfect fit on the bike. For me, a fairly tall guy, that always means some bmx bars to get me sitting upright. Otherwise my wrists and hands suffer after 10 miles. Spend a LOT of time trying different everything, and dialing in your riding position for 100 mile days. I'd say get very wide comfy cruiser pedals, so you can wear comfy shoes rather than cleats and bike shoes. Sew the pad from bike shorts into all your pants if you don't like lycra shorts. Find a lube you like, and use it. Just Vaseline keeps the sweat off your balls. Acid sweat on sensitive skin during 100 miles in the saddle is no fun. Use something for god sake, or you'll be very sorry.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Go for the DD motor, and I like Dogman's idea of a second backup motor. Geared motors aren't as efficent at cruising speeds, so you'll go farther with the DD. you can also use regen. while it's not too effective in normal riding, on a 100 mile a day cruise, adding an extra 5-10 miles range may be exactly what you need to fight that sudden intense headwind, or take that detour you hadn't counted on. Geared motors will also have problems climbing the long mountain passes.

If I ever do try a cross country ride, I think I'd go with an HS3525 just because of the better seals. But I think a 9C 2810 would be fine if ventalated.

 

[Ian]

Thanks for all the advice. Definitely needs some sensible planning and equipment! A couple of short "test" tours would probably be a good idea too. I kind of think people can do it different ways and make it work, for me I am clear on my speeds and distances I want to do, the amount of energy I have to pedal each day, so its going to boil down to what is left by process of elimination ie:

lipo vs. ping. I like lipo for normal recreational use as I can control the charging and storage scenario, but on the road its different. Wouldn't want to be sleeping in a motel room when charging a bunch of lipo, or having to keep an eye on all the wiring connections either. But the pings can be just left on overnight and sleep easy. So lipo is out and it has to be Ping or equivalent.

DD vs geared. For 100 miles day after day, encountering long steep hills and strong headwinds, I think I have thermal problems with a geared, and dual is too complex at least for me. So that leaves a slow wind DD. If i get cellmans 9T its pretty close winding to the 10t 9C2810, I run at 22mph top speed at 48v and I know these things will run all day between 500w and 1000w no problem and can do pretty well at a continuous 1500W for some time up hills esp if you can keep to 12 or 13mph.

breakdown issues: I like the idea of having all the spares like controller, throttle at home for a fast ship if necessary. Even a spare hub motor and wheel and a couple of tires. In terms of ping the only option at 48v I can see that gives redundancy in case of battery failure is using 4 of the 48v 10ah batteries and use them all in parallel for 48v 40ah. Also four of the 48v 5amp chargers. So if one battery fails, I still have 3 left and can keep going while problem pack is fixed.

comfort and weight. Has anyone used the thudbuster for long distances? I already use a sprung comfort saddle that I like, so the thudbuster I am hoping would really soften out the bumps and avoid a back injury if I run over a pothole. I would split the 4 ping backs between the bike and the trailer, they are about 10 pounds each so 2 on the bike, and 2 on the trailer. That leaves around 20 pound limit for my gear on the trailer. Also I think cellman's cruise control would come in handy so as not to have to be using the throttle all the time.

Should be interesting! Please share if you read this and have experiences with tours, I been on the "crazy guy on a bike" site and its real interesting reading, some guys are superfit and use lightweight bikes and SAG support for 100 miles a day, others go heavy n' slow and on the cheap. Thing is they don't allow e-bikers to post there which is a drag and while we have less problems in some areas compared to regular cyclists, we got to deal with other kinds of issues such as the charging and engineering, so its always great to read about others experiences, good or bad.

thanks Ian

 

[Deadmul3]

Ian,

I am currently on a bit of a tour. I am heading Durham, NC to Ocracoke Island and the Outer Banks north to Manteo NC. All told I will have logged 700 or so miles once I return to Durham. I have a 250 watt front motor and a 36v15A LiMn battery. I did consider a 2nd battery as i have a trailer but I didn't have 2 to 3 weeks to wait for an extra battery. The battery normally gets about 25 - 30 miles on a charge and I road 65 yesterday from the other side of Wilson, NC to Kinston, NC. Lots of corn and headwind, pretty tuff day.

I tend to use the motor as an assist to get up to speed to keep cadence and on hills that would kill me otherwise. Still not sure how to include a pic but here is a link to a pic from yesterday. http://imgur.com/0mEnQF0 , the route is here http://www.bigbikemap.com/routeinfo/NC-State-Bike-Route-2---Mountains-to-Sea , I still had some battery left after arriving in Kinston!

The trailer is a BOB YAK and I am very happy with it vs panniers. Most campgrounds have electricity to charge the batteries along with internet (private grounds mostly). I am also staying in hotels and B&Bs occasionally. I still wouldn't mind a 2nd battery but right now 40 to 60 miles is about all I can manage and having one battery forces me to ride more early and save the charge for when I really really need it. I can say the motor seems to handle the extra weight well and once you get rolling (with and without electricity) the trailer is not much of a bother at all. I dont really have an spare controllers or parts, just a bit of electrical kit for wiring issues if they occur. I can safely say if anything fails I can still make it with the geared front hub.

Gonna head to New Bern tomorrow and then to a campground near the Cedar Island ferry the next day !

good luck on planning your trip!

 

[Ian]

Sounds like a nice simple and lightweight setup. What kind of weight are you pulling? I was thinking of using an extrawheel trailer instead of the bob Yak, have you ever used one? I've read it is lighter, easier to attach and detach, but instead of one big bag in the Yak you use two regular size panniers either side of the wheel so maybe not quite so convenient. I'm aiming on 45 pound total weight on the extrawheel itself, consisting of 2 x battery and 2 chargers plus 20 pound gear.

 

[Deadmul3]

I would guess the trailer has about 50 lbs ( capacity is 32kg or 70 lbs) on it right now. (tent, sleeping gear, clothes etc). I am still working on being able to make coffee in the morning, which may add some weight. This is a bit a test trip as I have cycled with gear many times before, just not with a trailer or a motor.

I am not familiar with the extrawheel setup you mentioned, but the Yak only has one wheel and is balanced well, nice craftsmanship/sturdy and well thought out. It was more expensive than some other options and I can only say that I am very happy with the choice.

The yak does go off and on easily though you will need to get a set of Bob's "nutz' lol, that extend the axle.
I also bought an Orange solar charger (w/lipo battery) that I use to charge my phone for GPS ... just in case. http://solarjoos.com

While I mentioned I may do 700 miles back to Durham, it may that I will stay on the bike for the summer as I have the time and opportunity to do so.

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, EM3 ev shows some slower windings of his muxus dd motor on the website. Waiting for a reply from him on what exactly he has, but looks like one of them is the very hard to find 2810. If so, at 48v it will max out at 20 mph, and loaded down with 40 pounds of ping, more like 18. 4 chargers eh, plugged into what? Especially south of the US border? Don't count on plugs that can pull 4 , 250w chargers everywhere. You won't get your charge by popping the fuses at the motel. Two should work fine.

 

[Ian]

FWIW, EM3 ev shows some slower windings of his muxus dd motor on the website. Waiting for a reply from him on what exactly he has, but looks like one of them is the very hard to find 2810. If so, at 48v it will max out at 20 mph, and loaded down with 40 pounds of ping, more like 18. 4 chargers eh, plugged into what? Especially south of the US border? Don't count on plugs that can pull 4 , 250w chargers everywhere. You won't get your charge by popping the fuses at the motel. Two should work fine.

 

[bowlofsalad]

It's really hard to know what is going to suit you and your situations best. The consensus around here is that em3ev or ping are the first two to consider, that probably what I'd go with. Whatever battery pack you intend to choose, be sure to have far far more capacity than you'd need, I'd say go with at least double. A very hilly and windy ride, or even a motel that you'd expect to have vacancies or exist might not. You don't want to drag all that weight another 15 miles to the next town.

3000 miles is a pretty intense distance. I don't know much about the bike, but I do know that comfort and reliability are very big deals. For comfort, nothing beats a recumbent bicycle. Some worry about the height, but honestly on most recumbents you are at eye level with a four door car. I don't recommend using aluminum for anything that will hold weight. Aluminum has no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit fatigue limit. In my mind, aluminum is to glass as steel is to cardboard. Steel will bend and rip where aluminum will crack and break, you'd be hard pressed to get cracked aluminum fixed (perfectly, at least, heat treatment, people who know how to weld aluminum and so on). In addition, I'd probably go with something like big apple plus tires. A fatter tire will absorb bumps and such far better than a skinnier one. If anything can break or be shaken loose, it'll happen much faster with no suspension and skinny or hard tires. Fatter tires will mean a far more comfortable ride.

No matter the situation, I think I'd carry spares of most things I could, a controller, an unlaced motor, throttles and so on. Unless you can afford or have the option of either getting everything driven home (rent a truck?) or having stuff sent to you quickly, it'd just be wise to have backup stuff. Don't forget about fenders, but even with fenders, I'd look into ways to waterproof things. That is assuming you can't just stop whenever it starts to rain or simply not ride when it does rain.

There is a lot of other things to be said about things like fairings, clothing and so on, but I'll let you research that yourself.

 

[Ian]

FWIW, EM3 ev shows some slower windings of his muxus dd motor on the website. Waiting for a reply from him on what exactly he has, but looks like one of them is the very hard to find 2810. If so, at 48v it will max out at 20 mph, and loaded down with 40 pounds of ping, more like 18. 4 chargers eh, plugged into what? Especially south of the US border? Don't count on plugs that can pull 4 , 250w chargers everywhere. You won't get your charge by popping the fuses at the motel. Two should work fine.

Hey dogman. Cellman said he didn't have 2810 (10t) winding but he does have a 9T which is pretty darn close, should give another 2mph at 48v. Its on the drop down menu on his site you just got to select the right rpm.

Good point on the amp draw I need to be clear on that before setting out. Especially since I would be opportunity charging during the day. What a total bummer if I keep tripping circuits! I can go to two chargers, but that doubles my time waiting so not keen about that, so would have to rethink.

After a bit of googling, it says a kettle at 120v pulls around 13 amps, around 1500 watts right? Hair dryer a bit more around 15amps. With these four 5amp 48v chargers, I am pulling 48v x 20amps total = 1000 watts so around 10amp from the socket? Is that right? Also it says the typical standard for a US socket is either 15amp or 20amp. Is that right? If so I should be able to make it work at least in the US.

 

[Drunkskunk]

yeah, they would be 1000 watts total, but don't count on a socket being able to give you 1000 watts.

An example: At home I have a 1000 bulk charger, and use it outside on my garage circuit. But if someone rings the doorbell or plugs anything into a bathroom socket, I pop the breaker. They are all on the 15 amp breaker GFI circuit, along with the garage, porch, and bathroom lights.

A plug you find will be sharing it's power with many other plugs, so you can't count on what kind of power will be available. I would set up harnesses so you can charge with 1 charger if you have to, or just two, or all 4, but from diffrent outlets

 

[footloose]

Topic is killing me, serious case of spring fever, I want to go!

 

[Ian]

Topic is killing me, serious case of spring fever, I want to go!

yeah totally, what got me started was the CGOAB website and the amazing exploits of regular bicycle tourers. One thing comes through a lot of the journals there though is how physically demanding it is to pull it off under your own steam. Most of them do it on unsuspended bikes with hard saddles and a lot of body weight on the handlebars. With a lot of weight on the bike. That is not for everyone. And it would be hard enough on a well sorted e-bike. But surely its possible to do on a good ebike the same as the top flight cyclists do which is to do the southern tier 3000 miles in 30 days, and cut out a lot of the physical demands.

Out of all the issues and options raised so far in our posts, the charging aspect during the day is my main concern. That is totally going to determine what size battery is needed don't you think? At overnight stops, batteries like Ping can be left alone on a slow and stress free charge, but what about during the day say at the 60 mile mile point, when you haven't had any opportunity to charge so far, you need to put say 20amps into the pack and not want to hang around in some dump convenience store with shady characters lurking around or in difficult conditions, some gas station pouring down with rain or dust storm - just because you need some juice. No problem if its a starbucks and you can just take it easy with a coffee while keeping an eye on the bike, but the real world will be somewhat more problematical.

It would be ideal to have enough battery capacity for the entire day but then the running voltage must come down to keep it reasonable. For instance, 4 of ping packs 36v 15ah could be configured for 36v 60ah and still fit on my setup. Two fit on the evg bike frame, two go in the rear trailer. But then I would need to use a MAC 10T or similar at the voltage and then I need to keep speeds and watts a little lower than I'd like, and take more breaks during long inclines.

But maybe getting in real good shape, sticking to 15 to 17mph and enjoying the scenery is the way to look at it realistically. The "middle way" as it were between the extremes of very large battery packs and moped-like bikes and minimal assistance on a road bike. That kind of speed is still real fast by regular bike touring standards, like the lycra guys spending thousands of dollars on carbon frames and burning 8000 calories a day!

If charging for a couple hours during the day is guaranteed, then it opens things up a bit. So my thinking at this stage is to research the ACA routes some and confirm if charging is available at the various waypoints. With a rule on the tour: never to leave in the morning before A: bike fully checked and charged; B: calling ahead to confirm the day's charging locations; and C: overnight stop 100% confirmed!

 

[Eskimo]

I am planning to tour around Finland a bit during the next month, sleeping in motels where you can take your bike in the room and charge too. My whole charge takes around 2,5h times 2, five hours in total. Charging another pack during the evening before sleep, and another pack during the morning, i am early waker. I run lipos but this way i can avoid overnight charge. Cooling fan is so noisy too, that overnight charge would be impossible in the room. You can get a very good effiency with 500w DD i found, if you just hold back a bit. Steady cruise is what DD loves to do. If i stay on 25 km/h, i get very, very good mileage. 30 km/h is good still, but 35 km/h kills pack fast. Good area is right there around 28-32 km/h. I noticed that if you ride with motorless normal touring cyclists, you feel like a king in terms of effiency. Beautiful mileage On your own you tend to go faster. Upright riding position is a must, at least for me. My ass does not get very sore during the riding, but i do get occasional numbness, then i have to stand right up on pedals a while, to make blood go around again. 3000 miles is a huge leap! My record since now is 800 miles, done without motor few years ago. I took a plane and flew back with bike. Spare spokes are important, and good tool set. Good luck!

 

[dogman dan]

No telling what the standard for breakers is south of the border, on that I'm clueless. But even in the USA, circuits are not one breaker one plug. Lots of things share a circuit, and typically only kitchens have 20 amps. Two bedrooms might share a 15 amp circuit. In a motel, south of the border, you could have 3 bedrooms sharing one 10 amp fuse. Lucky you if they screwed a penny under them all, then you'd have a fire. Pulling 500w should be bad enough, let alone trying for 1000.

I got a reply from cellman last night. 2089-9t-7x9, depending on your nomenclature is the slow dd winding he has. That's pretty slow, and I would say it should do just fine. So unless you go with something more powerful, that's the one I recommend. EM3ev's slower direct drive motor. Feed it "48v", and no more than 30 amps. That's 1500w and enough to get you up serious hills. 10% grades will not be a problem. If a grade slows you to less than 12 mph, reduce throttle and keep pedaling hard, and keep a close eye on motor temps. For really good hill performance, two motors would be great, but you don't plan on hauling camping gear.

Top speed will be somewhere between 20 and 25 mph on the flats. My best guess will be 21-22 mph. Faster will just be wasteful so it should be perfect. At 15-20 mph, it will stretch your range real nice.

Calculate what you really need to get from plug to plug. Don't get tempted to carry too much, and make it harder to get up hills. 30 ah of 48v will take you 70 miles at less than 20 mph. Two chargers, and you will get a complete charge in 3 hours. After 70 miles, 3 hours won't be a long enough stop. If you can charge for an hour and a half after 30-40 miles, you get a 100 mile day.

 

[Ian]

I am planning to tour around Finland a bit during the next month, sleeping in motels where you can take your bike in the room and charge too. My whole charge takes around 2,5h times 2, five hours in total. Charging another pack during the evening before sleep, and another pack during the morning, i am early waker. I run lipos but this way i can avoid overnight charge. Cooling fan is so noisy too, that overnight charge would be impossible in the room. You can get a very good effiency with 500w DD i found, if you just hold back a bit. Steady cruise is what DD loves to do. If i stay on 25 km/h, i get very, very good mileage. 30 km/h is good still, but 35 km/h kills pack fast. Good area is right there around 28-32 km/h. I noticed that if you ride with motorless normal touring cyclists, you feel like a king in terms of effiency. Beautiful mileage On your own you tend to go faster. Upright riding position is a must, at least for me. My ass does not get very sore during the riding, but i do get occasional numbness, then i have to stand right up on pedals a while, to make blood go around again. 3000 miles is a huge leap! My record since now is 800 miles, done without motor few years ago. I took a plane and flew back with bike. Spare spokes are important, and good tool set. Good luck!

Hey eskimo. good luck on your tour plans. Around 6 hours a day on the bike plus 5 hours for charging kind of looks like the deal. That is an interesting way to approach charging lipo on a tour so that it is supervised at all times. Perhaps if you took an early start each day and finished by 3 or 4pm, the charging could all be done by the time you need to sleep and then just get up and go in the morning. do you protect the lipo in an enclosure or anything like that?

Totally agree with all your DD comments based on my experience with the 9c2810. I have "hypermiled" more than once at 15mph or 25kph to get back home after overreaching my range and got at least 3 miles per ah maybe more that way. And still, 15mph is a good steady speed in normal biking terms. 17 to 18mph is my favorite, just below the point where wind is getting a factor, and a relaxed kind of situation while not feeling like your going like a turtle. At 20mph I feel like I really have to focus on the road ahead rather than enjoying the scenery. Guess its all psychological as many of them say on the GGOAB forums - whatever keeps you happy!

This is a pic of my 12 year old evg bike after a 70 miler to california coast last year. I had 48v 20ah ping plus 44.4v 10ah lipo on that trip, it was mostly downhill so didn't need to recharge on the way and had juice to spare at the end. It is a comfortable and rugged bike with a suspension seat post and x- wide comfort seat. Since then I have bought new handlebars to sit more upright and that has really taken most of the pressure of the hands and wrists. A "thudbuster" under the seat I think would finish it off and allow me to sit a couple degrees more upright which will be optimum.



I have pounded this bike with the 9c on and off road for thousands of miles the last 4 years, running up to 72v, and never had one issue with the motor or spokes. Since using heavyweight specialized tires, not one flat!

 

[Ian]

No telling what the standard for breakers is south of the border, on that I'm clueless. But even in the USA, circuits are not one breaker one plug. Lots of things share a circuit, and typically only kitchens have 20 amps. Two bedrooms might share a 15 amp circuit. In a motel, south of the border, you could have 3 bedrooms sharing one 10 amp fuse. Lucky you if they screwed a penny under them all, then you'd have a fire. Pulling 500w should be bad enough, let alone trying for 1000.

I got a reply from cellman last night. 2089-9t-7x9, depending on your nomenclature is the slow dd winding he has. That's pretty slow, and I would say it should do just fine. So unless you go with something more powerful, that's the one I recommend. EM3ev's slower direct drive motor. Feed it "48v", and no more than 30 amps. That's 1500w and enough to get you up serious hills. 10% grades will not be a problem. If a grade slows you to less than 12 mph, reduce throttle and keep pedaling hard, and keep a close eye on motor temps. For really good hill performance, two motors would be great, but you don't plan on hauling camping gear.

Top speed will be somewhere between 20 and 25 mph on the flats. My best guess will be 21-22 mph. Faster will just be wasteful so it should be perfect. At 15-20 mph, it will stretch your range real nice.

Calculate what you really need to get from plug to plug. Don't get tempted to carry too much, and make it harder to get up hills. 30 ah of 48v will take you 70 miles at less than 20 mph. Two chargers, and you will get a complete charge in 3 hours. After 70 miles, 3 hours won't be a long enough stop. If you can charge for an hour and a half after 30-40 miles, you get a 100 mile day.

Thank you this is all good info. The more I look at the reality of such a tour the more the average speed has to come down to keep all the weight reasonable. I can't go over 500w on the charging setup so opportunity "fast" charging is out. I think 80psi on the tires, be reconciled to a 15 to 17mph cruising on the 9t DD rather than 20mph, figure on a real generous routine of half hour rest per 1 hour on the saddle to avoid burnout, and there is a 9 hour day. Leave at 6.30 finish by 3.30. Total ah required at 48v needs to be 50 so I have a margin.

Looks like people are using lipo on tours. If anyone does have experience on this, charging fairly large lipo packs at overnight stops away from home at hotels and so on, I would like to read about their charging routine used when on the road and safety routines utlized?

I have been using lip0 a couple years so will keep it as an option. On the emv 9t, I could run 44.4v and should still climb most hills ok running up to 1500w and hit my cruising sweetspot on the flats even with headwind. Perhaps add a couple more safety measures to the mix like LVC buzzers and individual cell displays permanently wired into the balance taps. A couple quality chargers. Go over my wiring so impossible to connect up the wrong way, ever. One thing I do like about using lipo is if I do notice a weaker cell, I can just swop it out. Try doing that on the ping on the road.

oh yeah and I have given serious thought to dogs and read your posts!