Using a lightweight generator to charge Bosch e-bike battery

[ebikecycletourists]

I am setting out on a long distance e-bike adventure in an attempt to set a new world e-bike record of more than 16,500kms at the end of April in the UK, Europe and Scandinavia.
Given that I am keen to avoid the need to plug into mains electricity every day to charge my Haibike's BOSCH Powerpack 400wh battery I have looked extensively into solar, but have decided it is impractical for a number of reasons (lack of sunlight in the UK, cost, finding someone with the knowledge etc).
As such I am now considering the merits of carrying a lightweight portable generator. Does anyone have any experience with charging e-bike batteries with a generator and if so are there any potential problems/issues that I should be aware of?

 

[dogman dan]

Only real problem is lugging the heavy ass thing. ( my ancient 800w Honda one weighs 75 pounds) A Honda EU 1000 should be closer to 50 pounds. Other than that, your charger should just plug right into it.

I use mine on car camp trips. Set up a camp, then charge and ride in the woods.

 

[Ykick]

Yamaha EF1000iS is a very small invertor genny under 30lbs, IIRC?

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, the cheapie 800w two stroke at Harbor Freight in the USA weighs 40 pounds.

But 30 pound ones do exist. No idea if they are any good.

Two typical 5 amp 58v chargers draws around 500w.

http://www.wisesales.com/ef1000is-yamaha-generator.html?gclid=CPXk4IaXpcMCFRJcfgodnxcAAg

That does look nice. But 30 pounds of battery can take me 50 miles easy. Assuming you already carry 20 pounds of battery, 30 more is 60-80 mile range. Plenty. I tend to do long tours carrying 40 pounds of battery, for 60 mile range.

But of course, deep into a national forest, better to bring the generator and set it up in a camp.

 

[Ykick]

here's another super cheap 27.5lbs -

http://www.powerequipmentdirect.com/Generac-5791-Portable-Generator/p3426.html

Honda offers a sub 30lb 1000W (peak) too.

As I ponder this it would seem to make best sense to rig or mount the genny in a manner so that it can run while under way. Kinda poor man's hybrid. Allow the eBike battery to handle peak loads but allow the penny to charge constantly throughout the trip.

Obviously, defeats the clean, quiet appeal of an eBike but if you're attempting to cover 100's of miles and bivouac a little it might be a good idea to run the genny as much as needed to keep up with demand?

 

[ebikecycletourists]

Yamaha EF1000iS is a very small invertor genny under 30lbs, IIRC?

I have been looking at the Yamaha EF 1000iS generator ... only 13 kg (lighter than a solar setup). Are there any issues with this type of charging that could damage the battery i.e. overcharge or not provide clean electricity? I will be towing a cycle trailr so extra weight on an electric assist bike is not a big problem.

 

[Ykick]

Yamaha EF1000iS is a very small invertor genny under 30lbs, IIRC?

I have been looking at the Yamaha EF 1000iS generator ... only 13 kg (lighter than a solar setup). Are there any issues with this type of charging that could damage the battery i.e. overcharge or not provide clean electricity? I will be towing a cycle trailr so extra weight on an electric assist bike is not a big problem.

Inventor generators provide very clean AC power - your charger shouldn't know the difference between the genset or wall outlet. I'm assuming your charger draws no more than 500-600W so well within the operating specs of the EF1000is.

This site offers more details and video reviews for the USA versions:

http://www.powerequipmentdirect.com/Yamaha-EF1000IS-Portable-Generator/p1205.html

Hell, you got me starting to dream about a long-range touring/camping trailered setup...

 

[gblast123]

Well there was a company that has a 15 lb, 1kw generator, which runs on diesel.

http://www.dstarengineering.com/piston-pdfs/Generator_Sets_1kW.pdf

Problem is that they do military applications, ie they charge a fortune for screws, let alone screwdrivers.

I remember calling them a few years back and they told me that their prototype cost $30,000.00.

Personally, I think that one could be built for a lot cheaper, using a small 4 stroke engine and combining that with an alternator.

I would hope that ES people could work on this.

 

[knighty]

can you not make your own with a chainsaw motor and a small out runner ?

assuming you have a BMS...

you could rectify the 3 phase coming out of the motor and feed it straight into the batteries
(just need to gear it so motor spins at the right speed)


it might be slow to charge that way... but is there really a hurry ?


you could always charge while riding too... unless that's cheating?

 

[ecat]

If you are taking a trailer why not just bring extra batteries? Put 1 or 2 light weight 100 watt flexable solar panels on the trailer so that the spares are always charging. Even on a cloudy summer day you will probably get 100 watt hours.

Seems to me carrying a genny is deafeating the purpose. Might as well just tour on a motor bike.

Have you looked into fuel cells? Again with a 100 watt fuel cell you could be charging a spare battery while riding.

Of course this all costs money...

 

[dogman dan]

Lots to consider, but the generator ruining a battery or charger is not going to happen if you are using the AC side. Two 5 amps 48v chargers (500w total) can be run on a 1000w generator, without any strain on it. Even my 800w one handles that load just fine for hours and hours.

DC, straight to a 12v battery, can overcharge it. But no problems with plugging just about any electronic item into the AC of the generator.

What I would love to have, is a cheap, like harbor freight cheap, 300=400w generator. Ideally sub 20 pounds. Overnight, one 5amps charger could completely recharge. During the day, 250w going in could be all you ever need. You could literally arrive at camp charged.

But yeah, you'd have to listen to it as you ride. No matter how quiet, that would not be great. So maybe just run it in the am, then ride on the battery till you camp in the pm.

More battery gets very expensive, but in the end it may still be your best bet. You plan to tour where it's not so likely to be 70+ miles between towns, and a plug you can use. Carrying 30-50 pounds of battery gives you a lot of freedom, and you don't have to smell gas.

 

[Punx0r]

IMO a <1 hour recharge while stopped at lunchtime and in the evening is the only tolerable option for a generator.

 

[Ykick]

Until we have 200-300 mile range eBike batteries - there's plenty valid reason(s) to assemble a "poor man's hybrid" using a trailered genny. Sure, not for a purist but for somebody who needs to "extend practical range" in order to complete long distance touring journey.

At least when you arrive someplace you can ride, explore and checkout the local area san ICE. Plus, off grid camping is much more affordable and enjoyable than camping with grid power and/or buying Flea-bag motel space in order to charge (likely fossil energy) another 100 miles carrying stupidly large battery pack.

It doesn't have to be an "Evil" thing, ya know? Merely range extending option taking "advantage" of affordable, small and efficient genset options.

 

[friendly1uk]

If you charge while riding, your motor power is not coming from the battery and so your not a world record breaking ebiker. Just an illegal hybrid.

10,000 miles is 3 months pottering around without motor assistance. A nice long summer tour. As people have said, load the bike up to silly levels, and you might get 80 miles then charge for a long time. I would rather do 80 a day on a road bike. It would take half a day. The ebike could be just a hindrance. I would save the battery for hills you just can't do without it, and cycle the rest. Though I don't know if I fully understand the record attempt.

 

[dogman dan]

True enough, it would only be a record for lugging a generator. To be truly pure, you'd have to get 100% solar power, or other green source.

Re "rather just cycle 80 miles on a light road bike" Can you put ability to do that in a box, and send it to me?

If you can still pedal strongly, as I can't, then you can carry a lot less battery, and use the motor only on the uphill sections. For me, it's ride 15 mph, carry a gigantic battery, and pedal what I can, perhaps 25% of the time. That's all the pedaling my health allows, 50w of effort for 10 min, then rest and ride the motor.

 

[Cephalotus]

Unlikely, but maybe they could provide a prototype of their Powerbox 180 fuel cell?

http://ezelleron.com/

If you are able to recharge every night I would just buy 2-3 extra batteries and chargers.

 

[999zip999]

Get a long power cord and a smile. When stopping at a restaurant or house. A generator is good if you have a motor coach to follow you for a place to sleep or to haul your solar panels. We just haven't got there yet.

 

[diggler]

Many many thought on this subject.
I like the debate.
For one I cant wait for Air Batteries. No I don't have a link but I read on yahoo news a month or so ago that lithium Air batteries are being developed as we speak! These batteries breath air like engines and are only as heavy as the lithium in them.

Another point I'd like to make is. What about the solar panel back pack from High power cycles? I seen it one day surfin you tube. It's a solar panel the size of the top of a picnic table that folds up and fits into a backpack. And I cant remember how light it was but if you can tote it around on your back all day it cant be that heavy.

Also I'm in the process of building a gas electric hybrid and I want to have two batteries and be able to charge one battery from a variety of sources, while I ride with the other. Sources like solar panels and little wind turbines. Then after I depleted both batteries, fire up the gas engine and put put to a place where I can fill up and charge up.

What I really want to figure out is how to rig up a small generator to the gas engine so it's also generating power as it's propelling me.
I think I'll have to switch to a different engine. I've seen them for two strokes and 49cc quad and moped engines. But not for 49cc gas bike engines. IDK any thoughts on that would be much appreciated. And here is a link to my build if anybody's interested.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65638

 

[dogman dan]

See this thread for a very practical solar bike.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62700&hilit=solar+trike


Ignoring the pure or not pure argument for now,,

I have tried carrying around my small but too heavy generator around in an adult trike. It definitely worked, but the weight slowed me down too much I thought. You can run two 250w chargers off it, and 500w coming in constantly would make your range pretty much infinite. Just figure on about 150w net gain, since it takes about 350w to haul my heavy ass generator that weighs 60 pounds fueled.

A small 50cc gas motor kit is bound to be lighter. My objection to that approach, a tribrid human, electric, gas bike, is the gas engine vibrates the whole bike so much, I'd never tolerate riding it for hours at a time. But a gasser kit definitely could be a limp to the next plug solution. It could turn the rear direct drive hubmotor of an ebike, creating regen electricity. Oh joy, listening to that thing go all night. If you engaged the regen while riding, you'd be lucky to move 5 mph. Regen on a motor is a very stiff braking drag. But you could put the bike on a stand, and walk off while it filled a battery. It's definitely not a busted idea, just one I wouldn't enjoy.

In my climate, solar can definitely work. Proven by the solar trike thread above. Very lightweight panels exist, and I still think in terms of 20 pounds max weight for it. By thirty pounds, you could just carry a light generator. The problem is the wind drag to deploy it on the fly. But ride three hours, charge three hours at noon, then ride three more can definitely work around here. If you carried 200w of panel, you could likely get up to 500 wh into your pack during a three hour noon siesta. Then still find a plug in the night to charge a large battery. Even a 50w panel charging as you ride could extend range by 2 miles per hour of good sun, adding another 10 miles range. 40w, x 6 hours insolation, 240wh. ( the sun may shine 15 hours in summer, but in my area you get 6 hours per day of full sun. )

 

[dnmun]

i cannot imagine you could be so remote in europe that there is no AC power to charge. justin was able to ride across canada using opportunity charging so i expect it would be much easier in much more densely populated european venues.

 

[diggler]

true true.
And the Russians did it that way too.
I'm in the states BTW, but same difference.
I was just thinking about crossing the desert. Sure you could bring more batteries but these 49cc 4strokes are supposed to get 150 miles per gallon. (I think 100 is probably closer to reality though) And I've never taken a cross country trip with an electric bike yet so IDK how friendly people are yet. And what's the max lbs of battery one would want to carry? 60 or 70 lbs on the bike and 40 in a trailer? So that's about 100 to 120 miles from the bike batteries and another 60+ from the trailer. So about 200 miles really loaded with batteries. And at 20 mph that's 10 hrs Yah I guess I'd be ready to call it a day after 10 hrs strait. I guess I'd just have to map it out to avert any 300 mile stretches where there isn't any place to charge. That's what I was originally thinking of because I know there's at least a gas station every 300 miles even through the most remote parts of US, because that's the range they design car gas tanks to go.

But a gasser kit definitely could be a limp to the next plug solution. It could turn the rear direct drive hubmotor of an ebike, creating regen electricity. Oh joy, listening to that thing go all night. If you engaged the regen while riding, you'd be lucky to move 5 mph. Regen on a motor is a very stiff braking drag. But you could put the bike on a stand, and walk off while it filled a battery.

Yah that's exactly what I was thinking "limp mode" kind of like the chevy Volt. (except the motor is directly propelling) I don't think I would use regen to recharge except for when I actually need to brake while using the gas engine But it's good to know it's there for the emergencies. I would use solar/wind turbines over this though. Originally I was thinking a bout dialing in regen on the fly so you could barely feel it when gassing but then I saw the regen slip mode on the Infineon and I'm definitely going to at least try this out. It makes sense for when your just using electric power too because (at least for me) your either on the throttle or your coasting because you have to stop very soon or your coasting because there's a hill or your on the brake.

The problem is the wind drag to deploy it on the fly

I was thinking of just putting them on the lager areas where the wind drag is already there. Like the battery boxes and fenders and of course the trailer. I wasn't thinking of a specific amount of solar energy I wanted, just anything I could get for free. 8) Same with the little wind turbines. I'd put them where the drag was already there. Places like right in front of my body on the top tube or the battery boxes or IDK where ever makes sense. It would be mint to make a fairing outta solar panels!

O and thanks for droppin some of that math down and for the linky.

 

[dogman dan]

70 miles to the next decent size town out here where I live. I don't count on getting a charge in some place with 3 houses or less. I carry 70 mile range, which is about 40 pounds of battery, when I ride at a rate of 25 wh/mi. You won't ever need 200 mile range, even out here in the far west. But getting over some of the bigger mountains might take 100 mile range, to get 50 miles. Or, if you ride deep into the mountains, you may need a generator or some solar panels to get back out to a plug. 100w worth of solar panel fits great on a small trailer. 100w more could be folded out when stationary. But even in the mountains, remember all those RV's have generators, and tend to be occupied by friendly people.

I definitely want to look into solar for my touring bike, soon as I have some more cash. I'm thinking 100w to start, in two panels that when carried not in use, would make no drag. An extra 500wh per day sounds like not much, but enough to move your camp 10 miles each day while in the mountains. Or add ten miles range riding along with it in the sun.

I have not toured using free range plugs further from my house than 100 miles, and did have one occasion where a jackass refused me a plug. But mostly, I've found it possible to get a charge, usually at a community center, or city park or state park where I could camp and buy a plug campsite. look for the gazebo where they have weddings and big parties. Or coke machines. Also check vacant commercial buildings for hot plugs.

I've ridden 300 miles from home using the cheat method. Carry the bike to a section of road I've never ridden with the car, ride 20 miles out, 20 miles back, then while the generator on a trailer is charging the bike, drive 40 miles further down the road and repeat. At night, camp with the generator. This works good for day trips, or weekend trips when you want to ride some new road. Riding it both ways is nice, the view is different each way. And you don't have to lug camping gear on the bike, just in the car.

Perfect, would be the supported trip. Not pure, but a car with a camp set up waiting for you each night, sure would be nice! Carry 30 miles range, and meet the wife for lunch and a fresh charged battery every day. How you make the wife like this mystifies me.

 

[SniperGaulois]

it's counter productive to use a petrol engine to fuel a battery journey, and if it were practical for anyone to have done it, someone here would have. i was reading about the smallest honda generator

Could you make a list of campsites with an electric facilities on the journey? i know that in the south of france here, on the Via Rhona, the bicycle path that goes from Lyon to Marseille on the banks of the Rhone, there is a campsite every 5-10km. surely it's possible to find an itinerary with campsites every 70km, and call them all in advance?

Other option is couchsurfing places where you can recharge?

Tiny Tiger mini petrol Generator.
They are called micro generators?

 

[dnmun]

i would recommend you avoid riding into deserted areas where there is no service for 100 miles. so many things can go wrong and with no available support or even other travelers if you have a heart attack or the bike fails and leaves you stranded 50 miles from services.

 

[arkmundi]

Personally, I think that one could be built for a lot cheaper, using a small 4 stroke engine and combining that with an alternator.... I would hope that ES people could work on this.

I agree there's an audience for light weight generators. Should be possible with modern composites.

As to the question, no I'd ditch the idea and look to have a fast plug-in charging solution. Depend on people's outlets. Which are everywhere. Still pennies for a charge, so no one should object. Give you an opportunity to interact. Be willing to tell your story as the battery charges. People will love you for it.