What is the simplest non-hub drive system to install?

[drguitar]

The subject says it all.

I am planning to use a 3 speed rear internal hub (Sturmey). I would like to keep the system as simple as possible (1 chain). I would like to install hand brakes with power cutoffs. I have lots of room for batteries and would like the system to be moderately powerful; high speed is not an issue. In fact more torque with lower speed is better than high speed with low torque.

What say you all? Please list the web site in your answer so I can explore your preferences.

Much Thanks!

 

[D-Man]

Its simple. Rat friction drive.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The subject says it all.

I am planning to use a 3 speed rear internal hub (Sturmey). I would like to keep the system as simple as possible (1 chain). I would like to install hand brakes with power cutoffs. I have lots of room for batteries and would like the system to be moderately powerful; high speed is not an issue. In fact more torque with lower speed is better than high speed with low torque.

What say you all? Please list the web site in your answer so I can explore your preferences.

Much Thanks!

Reasonable idea and something that I think should be more popular than it is as an aftermarket-type add-on.

The problem is that there isn't much choice when it comes to systems that drive through the chain. There are the fairly noisy and none-too efficient systems from Cyclone, here: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/ and that's pretty much your lot as far as off-the-shelf solutions go, I believe.

The lack of available chain drive systems is probably the reason that so many are forced to design their own. There are some very good sub-systems that have been designed and built by members of this forum, some of which are (or were) available for purchase. Matt's reduction drive/RC motor mount makes a pretty good starting point, as it can be adapted to fit a wide range of bikes fairly readily. There's some additional work needed to get the driveline set up to work, but it's all detailed here. Take a look here for details of his drive: http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/shumaker/edrive.htm

Jeremy

 

[Hillhater]

.....I am planning to use a 3 speed rear internal hub (Sturmey). I would like to keep the system as simple as possible (1 chain). ..........!

That is a bit of an oxymoron ..chain drive ... and simplicity...!
If you can take your focus off the chain drive and hub, and if you really want to keep it simple,.. you may like to consider one of the friction drive systems from Kepler (or EVtodd if you are prepared to do some DIY)
http://www.eboo.st/
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20491
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=21097

 

[drguitar]

Reasonable idea and something that I think should be more popular than it is as an aftermarket-type add-on.

The problem is that there isn't much choice when it comes to systems that drive through the chain. There are the fairly noisy and none-too efficient systems from Cyclone, here: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/ and that's pretty much your lot as far as off-the-shelf solutions go, I believe.

Thanks Jeremy. Why is the Cyclone system so noisy? Is the noise from the motor or a poorly designed chain drive or both?

 

[boostjuice]

Reasonable idea and something that I think should be more popular than it is as an aftermarket-type add-on.

The problem is that there isn't much choice when it comes to systems that drive through the chain. There are the fairly noisy and none-too efficient systems from Cyclone, here: http://www.cyclone-tw.com/ and that's pretty much your lot as far as off-the-shelf solutions go, I believe.

Thanks Jeremy. Why is the Cyclone system so noisy? Is the noise from the motor or a poorly designed chain drive or both?

With the smaller Cyclone motors, its the straight-cut planetary/epicyclic gearbox that sounds like a "colony of wasps on crack". Also, unlike the ring gear and the sun gear, the planet gears are made of non-case-hardened steel and so wear fast. This causes the teeth meshing to lose form and get noisier the more mileage you put through the thing. This effect is more pronounced with the higher voltage/higher current controller setups, but still happens at a slower rate using 24V controllers (manufacturer's intention).

For the larger ungeared motors, its the fact that they supply a 6 Tooth or 7 tooth 1/2" pitch motor sprocket which is inherently noisy due to chordal action. They choose this tiny sprocket because they are trying to achieve maximum reduction to a practical sized chainring (44T/48T), in one reduction stage. The kit is still a failure in standard trim because its not nearly enough reduction required. Maintaining the use of chain, greater reduction from the addition of a second reduction stage would be required to achieve a usable serial drive that you could effectively pedal assist.

So this leaves the cyclone kits with to critical shortcomings needing addressing. The planetary gears need case hardening, the larger motors require more reduction which though the use of chain requires two stages and hence a custom jackshaft arrangement to be added to the bike frame.

Oh... and the mounts are rat$#it as well. If they don't bend and twist from the torque, they will leave your frame with indentation damage as the clamps are a generic 'V' form which doesn't allow adequate clamping surface area to the frame.

Cyclone kits are ok if you are will to address their shortcomings with some custom work. A simple off-the-shelf turn key-kit they are not.

 

[veloman]

Look at my GT and Giant setups below if you want a low cost efficient chain drive. It's a bit noisy though.

 

[etard]

That's easy!

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12267

Direct drive, Gary already sells the adapter to the three speed, the chain and sprockets should cost less than $75. Motor mounting can be done with clamps stabilized by the bottle cage bolts.

 

[GGoodrum]

BJ is right, with regards to the Cyclone solutions. I had one of the large motor setups, and it was just horribly noisy. The tiny 6T motor sprocket was definitely the cause. I have also been completely dissatisfied with the "direct drive" setup I did with the 3220 and the large #35 sprocket. That too sounded like somebody dumped a bucket of bolts into the spin cycle of a washing machine.

Others, however, have done non-hub setups that have acceptable noise levels, like AJ's cruiser build, and D's Kona, but these are far from "off-the-shelf" solutions. For simple, and OTS, I'd definitely give Kepler's friction drive a look. As you can see, by the number of related threads, friction drives are getting a lot of attention these days. I must say, it definitely has my interest going. My next build will definitely be a friction drive, and it will probably be on the folder I currently have the 3220/direct drive on.

-- Gary

 

[jmygann]

Is the noise from the motor or the freewheels ?

Is the Elation V3 quieter than the Cyclone ?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21762

I would think this would be the simplest

Maybe better quality freewheels than the Dicta ?

 

[jmygann]

Is there a non geared motor with a KV that would work with double freewheels ? Like above ?

Maybe a hub motor stokemonkey style ??

 

[drguitar]

Has anyone tried to install a non-hub motor into a shaft drive bicycle? It seems to me that this could easily be the answer to this problem. Here is a 3 speed, shaft drive bicycle: http://www.amazon.com/Incline-Chainless-Shaft-Drive-Bicycle/dp/B0013KRZXG.


And here is a video that shows how the tranfer of power is done. It seems to me the some modification could be done in the front gear area that could accommodate the much higher spinning electric motor and would also allow free wheeling of the motor and pedals..

[youtube]9OQd5JExTUQ[/youtube]

 

[Hillhater]

Whilst neat and with some advantages, I suspect that the shaft drive would seriously limit your options for gear reductions when looking for an Edrive bike.
Oh, and the mechanical losses are far greater than simple chain & sprockets.

 

[drguitar]

Whilst neat and with some advantages, I suspect that the shaft drive would seriously limit your options for gear reductions when looking for an Edrive bike.
Oh, and the mechanical losses are far greater than simple chain & sprockets.

Maybe, but it seems to me that the advantages would far outweigh the disadvantages if done properly.

Pros:
Solid connection from motor to drive wheel.
Quiet and reliable.
Exceptionally simple design.
Moving parts are safely sealed away from the elements.
Relatively lightweight compared to other reliable non-hub designs.

Cons:
Front gear box would need to be fabricated for specific motor RPM. (expensive!)

To make matters even more interesting, you can buy a shaft drive bicycle with multiple speeds for well under $400. Imagine riding a dead quiet E-bike with an absolutely smooth drive train and multiple speeds through both your legs and the motor. Also, I am not so sure the mechanical losses are that much greater for a direct drive shaft when compared to sprockets with a chain and 100+ links. But you may be right and it may not work. I think I will do a bit more research...

 

[Hillhater]

a chain drive can be almost silent if set up and maintained correctly,. Derailleur idlers are the most common source of noise , so a chain drive (or belt !) to a geared Nexus type hub can be "silent". The Noise generator on Ebike drives are the motors and tiny motor sprockets that are used on cheap kits.
I already have a "silent" Ebike that drives through the chain (and derailleur -Aprilia Enjoy) so i know it can be done when engineered correctly.
Any gearbox, especially bevel gears, with have many more frictional loss points (gear contacts, bearings , lubricant drag , etc) than a simple chain and sprocket .
I would be suspicious of the durability of a shaft drive assembly on a $400 bike. ( a reasonable multi speed hub will cost $300 + alone !)
http://www.cecilwalker.com.au/category300_1.htm

 

[jmygann]

Does this make anything simpler ...

http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10167

http://overthebarsinmilwaukee.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/review-sturmey-archer-sx3-three-speed-fixed-gear/

 

[spinningmagnets]

On the subject of simple install, I have to vote for Solar Motion's friction-drive. Can be made from inexpensive and available components, and couldn't be easier to install. (Front hub is still the 'easiest', but the question here is easiest "non-hub")

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=14387

jmygann thanks for finding that...I also just found a left-side-drive flanged FW that uses sprags, so the FW doesn't need to be on the 3-sp hub anymore for my future Bubba-Drive with a 3-speed transmission. I read that the SA hubs are not as robust as the Nexus, but there will be several solutions soon for electronically snubbing the acceleration to soften the snap-loads on the hubs gear-teeth.

 

[jmygann]

jmygann thanks for finding that..

give credit to Randy ...http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/93190

He still has the nicest 3 speed (SRAM DD) IMHO

 

[Miles]

Wake up guys........

First post on the S3X hub was in September 2008: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6245

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=s3x&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

 

[spinningmagnets]

Huh...I didn't see that, but I should have added "S3X" to my search. Recently there has been discussion of snubbing the motor power with a slipper clutch, and also several solutions being worked on to moderate the amp ramp-up electronically. That being said, I really wasn't looking at Sturmey-Archers until this post re-visited them in my mind, with the idea now being, that they might be less likely to break with recent developments.

Several of the "3-speed hub as a transmission" threads seemed to unanimously conclude the Nexus was a more reliable experiment, due to the power levels desired. Funny,...how a rejected option from two years ago, is now looking pretty good,...plus its even cheaper than the Nexus.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Some alternatives to the Cyclone (higher quality, more expensive):
http://www.ecospeed.com/index.html
http://www.elationebikes.com.au/

If you can live with the low power (and probably a high price) you this seems like a system you would like:
http://www.gruberassist.com/category/englisch/

The poster in the background (right click and view the whole image) and the picture below show how it works (motor in the Seat-tube):

More information here (quotes are brief excerpts):
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/ele...t-invisible-electric-drive-all-bikes-wow.html

Gruberassist: lightest and most invisible electric drive for all bikes -> WOW !!
don´t miss the videos with explanation on the webpage !
here how it works:...

...some would maybe say: "pah.. only 200Watt? not worth at all"

i think you have to look from another direction on this thing...

what do electric bikes in generally have in common:
they are heavy (the "light" ones are around 20-23kg, but some are even close to 30kg)

when you are a sporty driver you invest a good amount of money to get a maybe 2-3kg lighter bike, invest money for light rims, ...
and what is done with the ebikes?
-> a 4kg heavy Hubmotor is mounted into the wheel
-> a heavy battery pack is included...

 

[Hillhater]

For 2000 Euro, i would want a little more than 100w assist for a very limited time.
It is well known why the Gruberassist was developed, but that "pro" market is now closed, so they have to try to sell it to a wider public

EDIT;
Also if you check the requirements to install it you may notice that it is not so "simple"..
* 31mm seat down tube dia .. ( that will eliminate 50+% of bikes)
* 560 mm frame height (seat tube length) .. ( thats way above average, and eliminates another 50% of the remaining candidates)
* requires a shimano "Holowtech 2 bottom bracket & chainset with external brgs ..$$'s ( how many bikes can accept those ?)

..and you better check that your bottom bracket has a clear opening up into the seat tube also !

So, how many bikes will this easily install on ??

 

[jmygann]

bolt this to a 3 or 8 speed hub

http://www.tppacks.com/products.asp?cat=26

drive with this motor ...

http://tinyurl.com/27my3ca

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

bolt this to a 3 or 8 speed hub

Won't work with most (all?) 8 speeds.

If you can live with the low power (and probably a high price) you this seems like a system you would like

For 2000 Euro, i would want a little more than 100w assist for a very limited time...

Pretty much repeating what I already said except its a 200w system.

...Also if you check the requirements to install it you may notice that it is not so "simple"...

You are confusing simplicity of installation with the percentage of bikes that meet the requirements.