WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON WITH A SUB 10K CAR

[svt/r&d]

Whats keeping it down the big 3? cars are going the wrong way in price, i was hoping elio motors would pan out but it's looking more and more like vaporware? what have we had over the last few years, fly the road,zap atlas,aptera yes some were more, but if tata motors can build a $2,700 retail car Wth is going on here, we can't upgrade it and sell if for $6700?

i do have some plans pulled from a 1970s design that would work great with todays tech safer than a motocycle and in the same cat, ice or battery it could be built in the U.S.A and sell for 7-10k but with all of these other epic fails i don't think i could find the cash for it. Thoughts???

 

[spinningmagnets]

I don't think the DOT crash regulations can be met by "adding a few things" to the Tata. There are several cars that are already in production Europe, but they are banned from North American sales. Very high mileage, plus some small diesel models. I am open to being corrected, but I look at what people/governments DO...instead of listening to what they SAY.

 

[Dauntless]

I am open to being corrected, but I look at what people/governments DO...instead of listening to what they SAY.

Ssssshhhhhh. One day, there just won't be another post from you. . . .

We had the old Fiat 128 rise from the dead and it sold in the U.S. around $3k. They were calling it the "Yugo" by then. Wasn't a lot of takers. Before you start trashing the Yugo, what makes you think the Tata or the Chery are any better?

India has built up more than three times the automaking capacity that they are able to sell. If you're lucky your plant is able to sell half what it's capable of producing. So why not gear up full tilt and ship 'em to the U.S.? There's more to it than even Mr. Magnets says.

I can't answer the question of how many cars are wrecked in safety tests, but I do know the manufacturer pays for the testing. Same with the EPA testing for emissions. It's not just the cost of adding the airbags, etc. There's a whole lot more development work to be done on those cars before they reach the dealers lot in America.

That's before you start thinking about accessories. In India they're trying to sell these $3k cars to people who've never had a car before. As a teenager I was taking a portable radio in my car because the one in the car didn't work. Indians aren't trained to expect a radio, an AC, etc. If these cars don't have a space to plug these things in, American buyers who claim they just want the cheap car aren't likely to be understanding.

The big three insist there's no market in the U.S. for such a car. That might be more than wishful thinking on their part.

 

[Lebowski]

In Germany you can get brand new sub 10000$ cars.

This one is 7800$ :
http://www.dacia.de/dacia-modellpalette/sandero/konzept/ueberblick/

You get a basic car: no airco, no heated seats, no automatic. You do get electronic stability, ABS and power steering though. And a small 1.2L 75 hp engine, which is enough.

When my car needs to be replaced I'm getting something like this, as I get
older (wiser) I don't see the point in getting a tricked out car anymore...

 

[Punx0r]

Good news! It's the Dacia Sandero!

Dauntless got it right, the expectations of most Westeners are too high at accept a car that can be built very cheaply.

 

[dogman dan]

I think the big 3 are a bit right about what we want in the USA. Take note, the tiny Toyota truck got huge too. We want big SUV's or SUV like 4 door pickups.

Yes, some smaller cars get sold too, but not so many without AC, automatic, power locks and windows, etc. When young and broke, you look for a used car with all that stuff.

Those tiny cars can be great thrifty transport. We used to have a ford festiva with 12" wheels. Later we traded up to a Jeep Cherokee, and went thank god on the first longer road trip. Highway driving in the west in that festiva was a nightmare. Fine car to commute to work, but out here any road trip is 500-1500 miles round trip, and that tiny car was unbelievably uncomfortable after 60 miles.

Nobody in the USA really wants a super tiny car if they can afford something the size of a focus or an accord. There is a market niche for it, but it's not a price niche. It's more of a niche for kooks like us that think driving a big suv is a waste. But we feel that a Honda fit is plenty small, and still want a big engine in it to merge on the freeway.

 

[Lebowski]

Hm, I kinda start liking the smaller stuff. I for one have a nice big R1200R motorcycle, but just bought myself a small 110 cc Honda Scooter.

For me the big 1200 is too much about transportation, while the 110 is more about adventure. When I go up the Gotthard pass (about 1500m climb, 200+ km round trip)
it's no big deal on the 1200 but with the 110cc it will be a right adventure. Similarly, I am planning multi-day trips to Holland (2000km) and Florence (1500 km) on the 110cc.

Smaller more primitive transportation makes for bigger adventures ! (and the > 100 mpg of the 110cc helps too )

 

[Punx0r]

Very small cars are a little quirky and niche most places in the West, but in the U.S. I can see why they're unpopular. Yes, maybe in the city they're OK, but otherwise you're just mixing with traffic so much larger than you. By European standards I drive a largish saloon car, not particularly low. The other day an imported Lincoln Navigator pulled up behind me in a queue at a roundabout. Looking in my rearview mirror I couldn't see the top of his radiator grill - it was above the roofline.

I fully believe the larger the vehicle you're driving in a given space, the more likely you are to hit something and I would not want to be rammed by something that heavy and high. The standard of driver training in the U.S. also seems to be relatively low while also allowing surprisingly young people to drive. The prevalence of automatic transmissions also encourages the witless and incompetent to get behind the wheel. So you've got a 14-year-old girl in a Ford F350 with stop-go controls and whose driving test didn't include any left turns for safety reasons*. I admire the bravery of you guys who cycle!

*Anecdote from a friend who took a U.S. driving test, state unknown.

 

[spinningmagnets]

In India, if someone dies in a wreck with no helmet....it "must have been fate". they are sad for a while, then they move on...after all, won't the dearly departed be re-incranated? One in six people on this planet are in India....and 90% of them are extra poor. They find it to be a great achievement to acquire a scooter. They will not be fussy with a $3000 car that crumples in a minor wreck, or...that it has NO power-steering/air-conditioning/radio/etc...

 

[knighty]

emissions (mostly safety as above)

in America, car emissions are measured by emissions per gallon of fuel burnt

pretty much everywhere else it's measured as emissions per mile driven


so the super efficient cars the rest of the world are building are illegal in America

 

[The fingers]

In India, if someone dies in a wreck with no helmet....it "must have been fate". they are sad for a while, then they move on...after all, won't the dearly departed be re-incranated? One in six people on this planet are in India....and 90% of them are extra poor. They find it to be a great achievement to acquire a scooter. They will not be fussy with a $3000 car that crumples in a minor wreck, or...that it has NO power-steering/air-conditioning/radio/etc...

Notice that they're all smiling (except the kid in the very front), even the poor dog in the bag looks quite content. They wouldn't last a mile like that around here. The cops would get a hundred calls for child endangerment (no helmets), spousal abuse and women's rights (forced to ride sandwiched in between kids and not allowed to ride in back of her husband), and from animal rights advocates; and probably become a headline story on the 6PM news broadcast. In the USA this story might justify bringing Brian Williams back for special assignment or qualify for Sixty Minutes. :lol:

 

[svt/r&d]

for the last year and a half i have been riding the bus to get around for research and because cali is running cars off the road because of growing smog rules, if you buy another cheap car you run into the same problem i speak with many people about cars they all wish they had there own, like me they don't care about ac, power this and that or airbags, i loved my 1970 honda 600n drove it everywhere city highway etc were talking 10" wheels never got in a crash but caused some with people talking pictures of it lol. people are in need of a dirt cheap car many are the working poor that need a payment around $100-120 bucks a month, many are alone max two people, a motorcycle type concept is whats needed bypassing Dot safety test.

3 wheeled concept seats 1-3 persons/cargo/ enclosed priced at $6-9k
All the power you need can come from a motorcycle engine or electric motor advanced lead acid batts or salvaged ni cad
KISS Tech

 

[svt/r&d]

1970s tech 40+mpg motorcycle engine kiss tech
build it out of abs plastic

 

[dogman dan]

The big three would make so little profit building a car for the working poor in the USA, they won't bother with it. Working poor don't buy new cars ever. They buy used cars. So the niche for a cheap new car is just tiny, despite the growing ranks of working poor here.

When the big three needed help with fleet mpg rules, they just changed the test, and viola, every car gets 5 mpg more in the test.

Sure, a few of us kooks would buy a cheap tiny car, but we're like the 1%. The rest in the USA barely want anything as small as a Honda fit or Ford fiesta. In my pretty small city, I constantly see ads. For sale, Honda fit, 15,000 miles. Somebody bought one, and hated it for being so small and scary to drive on the interstate. So it's getting sold after one year, trading up to at least a 3000 pound car. (size of a focus, accord, etc). There is a reason the ford festiva was only sold for three years here, only a few people ever bought one. It was made in Korea, so importing a tiny affordable car was tried by ford, and it was a huge fail.

So you think the big three, with that experience behind them will try it again? Nope.

 

[Ykick]

And to pile on the discussion, there's also yuppies/hipsters and those who buy tiny cars but they're not cheap. Mini, Smart, etc.

 

[Dauntless]

When the MINI debuted in the U.S. it started at $16k, but mostly the dealers were unwilling to have it on their lots without it being packed with all the accessories and damn didn't they have an attitude when you asked about an 'S' model stripped down as God and Nature intended.

I'll make the point that mostly the under $10k car with nothing in it would never be a big seller in the U.S., but the big 3 build some cars with the intention of moving 25,000 a year. (The VOLT!) I do believe there would be 25-30,000 sales of such a car each year, if it worked. Members of my family would buy one as an extra car and drive it some BECAUSE it was so simple. I have a sister who does LIKE AC in the car, doesn't listen to the radio, who has BEGGED for something just like this, it would be her ONLY car.

Think of how much fun the rich dad would have getting one for the spoiled son or daughter who was grousing because it wasn't a Porsche or a BMW. Think of how quick the spec racing series would grow up. This could all be great fun.

 

[friendly1uk]

It's pyramid sales. The old cars need to sell, we can't offer new cars for bottom dollar or the pyramid would collapse. Lots of people would buy new, impressing their neighbours and hopefully buying some reliability. Run them 3 years till the yearly testing schedule starts, and sell up. The 3yo cheap ass cars would then satisfy another market, of pretty new cars for almost free. So all the cars that started at the top of the pyramid can no longer move down so easily. Effecting the value of all cars that want to move down to new owners. Effecting what people will pay at all levels, due to the resale aspect not recovering as much of the initial expenditure.

Making cheap cars offers little return. It could sell for $3000, and even if it were 100% profit, still not be as good business as selling a satnav upgrade to a big car buyer. Cars that cost $60K can vary in price by 5% with little market impact. That is $3000 variance and barely noticeable. They could make the same profit fitting leather seat covers as selling a small car. Without ruining the price structure that the pyramid idea shows us.

 

[svt/r&d]

Sounds like greed to me? Plus there needs to be simplified cars ez to repair no computer to hack an be protected from any kind of emp attack
And what over 39k people have signed up for an elio

 

[Dauntless]

I don't really think the used car market would be impacted because they wouldn't sell many under $10k cars. And they'd be even less desirable as they got older. Great, we can make racecars out of the old ones.

Ever notice you don't see the econoboxes on used car lots much? When 'Make Magazine' was looking for cars to run the "24 Hours of LeMons" they noticed that there were some models of old cars that people just didn't anymore, and noone wanted to take them off their hands, either. I think the better cars on the market will always be in demand when they're used.

The Strength through Joy car of Germany was put into production after WWII because the British military needed vehicles in Europe, here was an almost ready to produce factory that they could build cars with, so they started building. This after a British car maker AND Ford had turned down the chance to take the factory tooling to the UK or the U.S. and build the car there. Even as the car was selling in Europe nobody believed they could sell it in the U.S. It didn't put the U.S. carmakers out of business, but it did well. Oh, they changed the name to Volkswagen, those danged Americans started calling it the 'Beetle,' which pissed off the Germans---at first.

 

[The fingers]

http://m.fastcoexist.com/3041037/th...egen&utm_content=changegen&cid=ps101changegen How did these guys get in? 8)

 

[friendly1uk]

Ever notice you don't see the econoboxes on used car lots much? .

They are the best selling cars on the lots here. Have been since the economic downturn. Our lots want nothing else. Cars to commute with, that use little fuel and fit in small spaces, cost little to buy and run, and you can get a newer car. It's full of win.

A friend was looking for a diesel estate car, and came away with a 400bhp audi because nobody wanted it. It was cheaper to buy. He uses a van generally, it's just for family holidays. RS6?

Fastest depreciating car was the Mazda RX7, which is worth about 25% of comparable cars. Purely because of running costs.

Many parts of the globe only want small cars. People that didn't make them are having to now.

Best selling car in america right now will be a big 4x4 pickup. It never goes off-road and has unsecure load-space. Weighs to much to be fun, or frugal. Nightmare to park. Yet thought of as a city nipper. Meanwhile in the UK the ford Fiesta will of sold the most.

 

[The fingers]

We call 'em city wheelers. :lol:

 

[Joseph C.]

And to pile on the discussion, there's also yuppies/hipsters and those who buy tiny cars but they're not cheap. Mini, Smart, etc.

That BMW is anything but Mini and every year they get larger and larger.

http://content.ll-0.com/minipeabody/minipeabody_e_a002420666.JPG?i=061112173755

Buy a second-hand car and let someone else take the bulk of the depreciation. New cars are vanity projects especially with the latest vehicles being good for at least a decade or more.

 

[Dauntless]

The problem with the 2nd hand car you can buy is they're usually former salvage titles that have been cleaned. I'm trying to remember the last used car I bought that I didn't have problems with.

Amazing how the MINI turned into an SUV, eh?

The English car market has different feelings on the car size, eh? I wanted to find a picture of the old Thames Van sitting next to something that would provide size perspective. When I was in college someone was selling one nearby and I wanted to buy it and maybe keep it on my desk until I was ready to do something with it. I guess these will do. But then this is an area of so many small cars they had the Monoposto formula in racing.

 

[dogman dan]

Yep totally different in Europe, the small car pretty stripped is still a good seller there. You guys have some sense. But among other things, you can survive without AC there, quite a bit further north than Arizona, Texas, Georgia, etc. I drove out here with no AC for years, doing shit like putting blocks of ice on the floorboards, or pouring water down your shirt. It sucked.

But out here in the southwest USA, tons of big SUVs and 4 door trucks. My Subaru is a rarity in the parking lot. But plenty of cheap cars driving around out there, like my wife's focus wagon. We bought it used with very low miles for about $8000. Good title, and has run just about flawless for about 6 years so far. It has auto, power windows, power locks, AC, and a large cargo area. Gonna get that in a $10,000 new car? Nope. I'll take a low miles used car that sold new at $16,000 over a new car that costs sub $10,000 and has no AC.

The working poor though, they can't even afford that low miles used car, let alone something used. Being working poor wrecks your credit, or you never build any to start with.

They get stuck with high mileage used, that needs new valves, new CV's etc, or are at the very least running at risk without a new timing belt. The power windows are broke, the Auto transmission is shifting funny, it passes smog by paying an extra $100 for the sticker. It's too bad they don't have the option of buying a stripper economy small car used for $3000. A beat old focus is as good as it gets for them. When I was young, you could still get a bug, but not anymore.