Li-ion 48v 20ah with charger $623

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Perth Western Australia
I was just going through the bookmarks of battery suppliers I have trying to come to final
decision what battery's i will go with.

I dont know if these are the same as Elite had previously or its just a different picture of the battery's.

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=1_8&products_id=75

$623 for a 48v 20ah setup including charger? whats the catch? Seems awfully cheap to me...Doesn't appear to include a BMS im assuming its not required?

They sell the individual 12v 20ah pack also

http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=74

$148 again seems awfully cheap...what am i missing here?

Can anyone clear this up? anyone have these?

Cheers in advance...

Kim
 
Looks to me like the bms is what is missing. It is a 12 v pack with no individual cell group monitoring, so you are most likely balancing 4 or 5 pouches, and three cells per battery as a single unit, with the balancing charger. Actually, it might work fine, but not if you go out and hammer the snot out of it with a lot of high amp rate, all the way to lvc discharges. Used sensibly, say 1 to 1.5 amp discharge rate to 70% discharge, it should work fine. The specs seem to indicate a decent cell inside the batteries, but the downside is you will have to replace an entire 12v battery to correct any problems that may arise later. With headways, or psi, you would only be replacing cells 3.2 v at a time, so a bit cheaper when a problem occurs. I think by now, we understand that eventually, a cell will underperform and drag down the cell group, so the smaller the unit that needs replacement the better.

However, used carefully, I see no big problem with this, as long as you aren't pulling more than 30 amps continuous and have a nice conservative lvc. One nice thing is you can mount the thing in a variety of ways without needing a lot of connectors and stuff, and at those prices, maybe have a spare around for the inevitable. You could also charge em with 4 chargers, for better balancing.
 
Hrmz...how do the fellas using the Li-ion Konion cells get away with pulling high c rates? i thought li-ion were good for ~10c I was talking with Doc regarding the Konions and he said the BMS wasnt necessary they stay balanced as long as they aren't over discharged and/or over charged was my understandings :-S I need a battery setup capable of 120amp...which makes any of these 'duct tape' packs of know use with there crappy 60amp max... I guess the only option is A123s or the individual Konion cells as per the Doc can supply from the Makita packs ... (or lipos which i doubt will happen) The Headway and PSI setups are ridiculously expensive and out of my price range.


Cheers for input anywayz

Kim
 
Yes that link does but the one specific to the package in question only says " Package contains 16X 20Ah cells and one charger. " I have emailed them previously there responses are quick and the person that replied to me at least, has better English skills than I (not that mine are that flash but better than the Chinese fellas i have attempted to correspond with)

As the re whereabouts I can help with that they have that in there emails sig-->

Jennifer Wenren
Elite Power Solutions, LLC
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
(602) 680-9493 (cell)
http://www.elitepowersolutions.com


Shall email Jeenifer again and ask about the BMS requirement...Only problem i had before with Elite was they wont supply me with a 240v capable charger. I liked the price of the package anywayz...the charger (albeit not 240v) looks to be a nicer unit than you get with the duct tape packs. Has anyone had experience with the particular charger Another issue i may have is the max voltage and my new u-beaut Kelly controller it has max volt listed at 56v so im assuming anything over and it will shut down? Not a HUGE factor i guess, can charge to 56 volt and leave it at that ;-S

Shall let you fellas know what Jennifer has to say about the BMS anywayz...cheer fellas


Kim
 
Well hows that for customer service...under an hour since i emailed Jennifer i get the following response-->

Hi Kim,

Thanks a lot for your enquiry!

We only request to use BMS for 24 cells or above packages. Our charger is customized for 16 cells to be charged equally using pulsed charge as a last stage. BMS is not recommended to be used due to another important reason: cost. the cost of 16 cells is only $544, while the cost of a BMS is almost $2000, I think it's easy to figure why BMS is not required in our package.

Those batteries are made by Ningbo Thunder-sky.

Hope I have answered your questions.

Regards,

Jennifer Wenren
Elite Power Solutions, LLC
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
(602) 680-9493 (cell)
http://www.elitepowersolutions.com


So they are thundersky cellz and definitely no BMS used with them...

Kim
 
I know nothing about these Thunder-sky batteries. I also know nothing about Ping batteries. If I were to compare what looks to be plastic cases with duct tape. The plastic wins!

AussieJester,
Can you get a converter to change your 240V to 110V that we use in USA?

All you Ping fans will probably hate me for saying this, but DUCT TAPE is NOT what professional manufactures of anything should be selling. If I bought a battery for my cell phone, laptop, or power tools I would expect a plastic case.

One more thought on Ping batteries. I have only seen pictures, but they look like Pop Tarts. I would not wrap Pop Tarts in duct tape and tie them on the back of my bicycle. Pop Tarts should be transported in a strong box.

Elite Power Solutions image is way to big. Or might be problem with my browser? I reduce image size.
View attachment 20X16package_sm.jpg
I do construction. Once on a job, a mother duck and a bunch of baby ducts went swimming in a swimming pool. The mother duck was able to climb out of the pool. But the baby ducts could not climb out of pool. The mother duck was running around the pool in a mad panic. What to do? We made a small ladder out of DUCK TAPE :lol:
 
marty said:
AussieJester,
Can you get a converter to change your 240V to 110V that we use in USA?

Yes mate we can, for around 70 bucks :) I was more concerened about the max voltage being over what my controller is rated for...

marty said:
All you Ping fans will probably hate me for saying this, but DUCT TAPE is NOT what professional manufactures of anything should be selling. If I bought a battery for my cell phone, laptop, or power tools I would expect a plastic case.

haha yes couldnt agree more, no way i will be handing over a grand to someone in china for a pack wrapped in tape, the fact that there are what 60-80? of those pop tart packs is a MAJOR turn off also even if they were capable of meeting my needs i wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole....Dogman brings up the point at least its cheap to change a cell if it goes bad, guess this is a good thing with that many poptarts in a pack i dont like yur chances of one NOT failing buddy LOL...yupz..might be cheap but what a job to unwrap the pack without ripping wires out causing even more damage, then you need to solder the wires to BMS nup...hands down would be happier to pay the 140 for a new 12v 20h pack undo two bolts swap in old for new badda bing done...the 48v 20 pack has 16 cells i like my chances the "survival rate' of these over the many many many poptarts in a ping pack, i would assume the quality would be alot higher also...for starters they have a nice hard plastic cover not a 1/4 of a rolls of Duct tape LMAO :p The very least Ping (and co) could do is use shrink wrap instead of duct tape for some sort of semi-professionalism...Duct tape should only be used on race cars to hold fenders on when damaged in the race not for 1000 dollar PLUS battery packs :-S LoL... the chargers they come with look poor at best, this seems to be supported by the number of people i have seen mention theirs fail, along with the BMS...too risky for me personally as i don't have the option to pedal home, if i break down and cant fix it on the side of the road im stuck till end of business hours till mate with ute can come pick me and trike up... No offense meant to owners of the duct tape lifepo4s especially dogman who might be on Pings payrole i think hes very outspoken about the ping packs :p LoL.. If it was between the Thunderskys 48v 20ah with a decent charger for 623 dollars or the 48v 20ah Ping pack for what? near 800 bucks on his website (sorry i deleted the url from bookmarks) with cheap charger i think the choice is easy personally... :-S

marty said:
Elite Power Solutions image is way to big. Or might be problem with my browser? I reduce image size.

Nope not just you matey it is a biggy LoL..looks like the usual Thundersky pack sprayed with silver paint, you can even see they are yellow colour underneath ;)

They seem an attractive option too me, i would like to hear from anyone that has them though...

Kim
 
News flash guys, inside the plastic case you are real likely to find pop tarts, though they may be in a larger size that the ones in a Ping pack. I guess to find out, somebody has to buy one and get a saw. If one pop tart dies, good luck repairing that one unlike the easily unwrapped duct tape. The box to protect my ping was not much of a problem to solve. The ping cells, given enough of em, would put out 120 amps easy, but the bms avaliable now for cheap would not. I would say that four 20 amp hour pings in paralell would go 120 amps continuous with no problems. That way each pack and bms is only dealing with 30 amps. I don't think you are going to get high discharge cells for similar price to duct tape cells though. For 120 amps, you need a123's or a lot of pack size in my opinion.

Oh, and by the way, all those fried chargers and bms? Those were sold by other guys, notably mr laumphkjimmywu etc and use a totally different cell in the pack. Not Ping. The main similarity to those piece of crap batteries was the tape. What is inside a ping pack has a better track record than thundersky in my opinion. It would be nice if Ping got some boxes made to fit his standard battery sizes though, even if we had to pay extra for em. I'm not worried about the pack on my bike, but I sweated blood on the possibility of shipping damage.
 
ROFL...oooookay then....wish i could catch fish that easy :p

dogman said:
What is inside a ping pack has a better track record than thundersky in my opinion.

So headway have problems? the reason i made the thread was to find out more about these new 12v 20ah cells as i wasn't able to find any info here NOW your telling me they have issues...even though you dont know what's actually inside the plastic covers...:-S Why didn't you say this in your opening post? do enlighten us please buddy would very much appreciate the input before i fork out grand :-S

Also while i have your attention...your saying Ping packs will do 120amps IF i have FOUR of them in parallel...? so i need to spend over FOUR thousand dollars?!?! you couldnt have typed that with a straight face suuurley :p Ping packs have a 3 c rating dont they?

Whats 120amps as a 'C' rating? 5c or there abouts? Li-ion i have read are capable of 10c can anyone confirm this please?

Kim
 
Is headway and thundersky the same thing? Now I'm confused. I was refering to thundersky having some problems years ago, with another chemistry, but the real issue was that at the time, they were weaseling on the warantee. I really should shut up though since I have no real info on their current products first hand. I do have first hand experience with ping, and his product, and support of it in the very few cases where there was a problem has been exemplary. Many others have sold some pretty crappy duct tape wrapped product so most of what you say has merit. It just doesn't apply to the cells ping uses, that is all.

I know that 4 ping packs is not the solution that you are looking for, but I did want to point out that it was possible, even though it is pretty far from the best solution for a 120 amp continuous discharge pack. Pardon me also for forgetting that you aussies are stuck with a really crappy exchange rate these days. 4 packs from ping for you would cost almost twice what it would for me.

This whole c rating thing gets confusing, and I am not entirely sure I really understand it, but here is what I belive I know. On the ping packs, with a 20 amp hour pack, the 1 c rate would be a 20 amps, on a 10 ah pack 10 amps, and so on. Makes it handy for calculating. Ping's cells are said to be able to stand 3c discharge, which is why his bms will allow no rate above 60 amps on a 20 ah pack.

But here is where I start to balk, who says this cell can stand 3c continuous? Nobody as far as I can tell. This 3c rate is for a short burst, not all day. The only test data given is for a 1c discharge rate, so as far as I am concerned this is a 1 c cell untill you prove to me it can take more. Others on the forum have told me they are having no problems with 1.5 c rate , so I can belive that a 30 amp continuous discharge on a 20 ah ping pack might be something that works in the real world. So 30 amps into 120 gets you the idea to use 4 packs to get 120 amp continuous. If on the other hand, you need 120 amp spikes and 60 amps continuous, then two ping packs in paralell would do it. Now it only costs 2 times too much, instead of 4 times too much money.

What you are stuck with though, is the only way for you to find out about these great looking batteries in the plastic case is to buy one, and start testing. If you are lucky, someone has, but aparently not so far. I'm sorry if I pissed you off, but I got peeved when the duct tape batteries got commented on. Mine has been absolutely fabulous. But beware of ALL lifepo4 sellers claims. All I have read so far seems to show only A123 has proven high discharge rate capability. PSI and headway cells are still in the testing by forum members in the real world stage in my opinion. The price of the plastic case batteries we are discussing here would indicate to me that inside, you would find some kind of cell that is good for 2 or 3 c. I just can't believe in 10 c cells for that price. I can believe in inflated claims of c rates. If I were you, I'd be real temped to try em, especially if they are local, so you don't get screwed in the exchange rate, and then use em at 2 c continuous or less. I'll shut up now.
 
Always appreciate your input matey lively debate is healthy IMO anywayz hehee..

The exchange rate is atrocious...before it went to shit several months ago i would have paid not alot more than the Amreicans our dollar was up in the mid 90s to the greeen back now its mid 60s :-S

I have until now (in RC Helis) used nothing under 25c (lipos) for the choppers TBH it shocked me somewhat when i first came here and started researching the whole e-bike thing that the packs used had such low C ratings...Speaking of the RC Choppers im veeeery tempted to pick up another and get back into the hobby, the prices of the Lipos have nearly halved in what i was paying for them ~18 months ago, one of the reasons i quit the sport i simply couldnt afford to have enough batterioes to warrant a trip to the flying field, now though i could AND the smaller 450 size choppers can be picked up extremely cheaply...something for me to ponder on when i have the trike complete anywayz...least now i could pop the heli on the back of the trike and get to the local oval for a fly and not rely on mates for lifts hehehee back to the batteries though...

I would like to give these thunderskys a shot (oh yes they are different to the Headways to matey...) Its just ALOT of money for me to drop on a battery solution that i havent heard anything about HENCE this thread LoL.. It will cost me slightly over a thousand for the Thundersky packs once freight and exchange is factored in. Not sure if you have checked my trike worklog recently (last few days) Safe has suggested the c size nicads freom Tenergy, they have a 9c rating...as mentioned on my log, i do like the price, 80 cells for $US103 ... i would guess i would need 160 of these, if i was buying them though i think i would spring for 3 packs of 80...never hurts to have more than enough right!? I would (if i went with the nicads) use the same tube setup safe has on his #3 bike, it makes swaping out 'dead' cells very very simple and quick...Once the cell is found i guess and thats where in my only dilema regarding this solution (and the Konions from Doc for that matter) is you need so many of the damn things :-S At least i guess there is no solder joints in the tubes so it is one less thing to break and no BMS to fail and as safe says, the Nicads are hard to destroy....

Cheers again for input Dogman always appreciated :)

Kim
 
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ThunderSky/

Check that place for info on these cells.. i've been a member on there for many years, i don't post but read the daily digest.

Thunder sky has been making batteries for a long time, anyone remember Steve Head and the Dirt Monkey ? :p ( been a long time since we seen that guy :? )

I'd skip the nicads at any and all costs..
 
Cheers for that link YPedal shall kave a looksee...

Why are you opposed to the NiCad setups ? Weight? capacity? charging hassles?

It is a much cheaper solution (obviously an inferior technology too which is expressed in the price i guesss)
What i need to workout now is it for me personally worth spending the grand on
the Thundersky setup or will the a tube setup of 240 'c' cell NiCads be suitable for my requirements...a 15km maximum
journey over serious hilly roads. Im still not aware if these new Thundersky batteries are upto 120amp abuse?
The Nicads are 9c so they are upto it i believe?

If i was just content to NOT give it a fist full of throttle up hills and dropped the gearing lower still (which i will be doing anywayz) i could prooooobably get away with the duct tape Lifep04s but
uhm...yeah...aint gunna happen on either count LoL...If it doesnt work the way i want it to when ridden
the way i like to ride it then the only solution to me is to make it so it can be ridden in that way
simple as that ...and probably expensive LoL ;)

Cheers fellas...

Kim
 
The nicads are a viable option, but bear in mind that they will not do anything close to the cycle life of good lifepo4 cells. And also they will be heavy, allmost as heavy as sla's. But they can do the discharge, so you need to decide if the savings now is worth the higher cost per mile. Unfortunately the cheapest way can take the most up front cost. I'm still leery of claims that an affordable lifepo4 can do much better than the discharge rate of pings cells continuously. The good powder costs money. But you can sure fool around with different pack configurations a lot easier with battery that comes in 12v blocks. Could you afford six of em? That would give you enough ah to go 36v 40 ah or 72v 20 ah.
 
dogman said:
The nicads are a viable option, but bear in mind that they will not do anything close to the cycle life of good lifepo4 cells. And also they will be heavy, allmost as heavy as sla's. But they can do the discharge, so you need to decide if the savings now is worth the higher cost per mile. Unfortunately the cheapest way can take the most up front cost. I'm still leery of claims that an affordable lifepo4 can do much better than the discharge rate of pings cells continuously. The good powder costs money. But you can sure fool around with different pack configurations a lot easier with battery that comes in 12v blocks. Could you afford six of em? That would give you enough ah to go 36v 40 ah or 72v 20 ah.

Some NiCd cells have a very long cycle life. They will be bigger and heavier, but I don't think it's necessarily guaranteed that the NiCds will die before a LiFePO4 pack would. IMHO the biggest drawback with NiCd cells is that you need so many of them (200 cells to make a 48V 11Ah pack at 1.2v/2.2Ah per cell), so hooking them all up would be a PITA, and you might run into reliability problems in a high vibration environment.
 
dogman said:
The nicads are a viable option, but bear in mind that they will not do anything close to the cycle life of good lifepo4 cells. And also they will be heavy, allmost as heavy as sla's. But they can do the discharge, so you need to decide if the savings now is worth the higher cost per mile. Unfortunately the cheapest way can take the most up front cost.

dogman said:
Unfortunately the cheapest way can take the most up front cost.
Very true,
Unfortanatly for me, I have to go the cheap way for now until i can save for something better :cry:

dogman said:
And also they will be heavy, allmost as heavy as sla's.

I was considering nicads also, but i was wondering about the weight,
Like would I be really gaining (weight wise) if i make a 48 volt 10 or 12 amp pack out of 2200mah nicads ?
or would it be just as good to use SLA's for now. ?
 
Right now $110 CAD is more like $90 USD. If you include shipping and Canadian taxes it's probably closer to $130 CAD ($107 USD). Unfortunately, Canadian Tire will only ship to Canadian addresses. Anyway, $107 USD for 20v 6ah works out to about $0.89 USD/wh shipped. Yardworks is a good deal, but there are better deals to be had.

The Bosch 36v 2.2ah packs are probably the cheapest safe high power lithium available right now. (EDIT: that's if you're in the US, which you're not. Shipping internationally probably adds $25 or something crazy... maybe you can find these locally. Sorry!) The price on ebay has dropped to around $50 per pack, including shipping. That's about $0.63 USD/wh shipped.

Ping packs are a little more expensive than the Bosch packs at around $0.75 USD/wh, but that includes shipping, a nice BMS, and a charger, so really the price is pretty comparable. One other thing to consider is that both Yardworks and Bosch packs are LiMn chemistry, while Ping cells are LiFePO4 which should last longer.

But if you don't care about the extra lifetime and you don't want to pay for the extra range, 8.8Ah of Bosch packs should be able to provide enough current for a medium power bike, while 8Ah of Ping battery won't.
 
marty said:
I know nothing about these Thunder-sky batteries. I also know nothing about Ping batteries. If I were to compare what looks to be plastic cases with duct tape. The plastic wins!

AussieJester,
Can you get a converter to change your 240V to 110V that we use in USA?

All you Ping fans will probably hate me for saying this, but DUCT TAPE is NOT what professional manufactures of anything should be selling. If I bought a battery for my cell phone, laptop, or power tools I would expect a plastic case.

One more thought on Ping batteries. I have only seen pictures, but they look like Pop Tarts. I would not wrap Pop Tarts in duct tape and tie them on the back of my bicycle. Pop Tarts should be transported in a strong box.

Elite Power Solutions image is way to big. Or might be problem with my browser? I reduce image size.

I do construction. Once on a job, a mother duck and a bunch of baby ducts went swimming in a swimming pool. The mother duck was able to climb out of the pool. But the baby ducts could not climb out of pool. The mother duck was running around the pool in a mad panic. What to do? We made a small ladder out of DUCK TAPE :lol:

:lol: :D :lol: :mrgreen:

I just went over this thread again and noticed this post.

A roll of duck tape here is anywhere from $5 to $10, They probably know that (the seller) so they think that we would be impressed with expensive rapping (silver tape). (Get rid of the duck tape and throw in 10 more batteries.)
But hey, Red Green uses it to build anything and everything :D
People hang shelves up with that stuff, so it can't be all that bad :lol:

But in all seriousness, even shrink rap is probably cheaper and it would make the pack and seller look better.
 
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