Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/64v Headway build

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Mark_A_W
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Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/64v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:27 pm

This is a new thread for my continuation of Voicecoil's Giant DH Team build. It was a bit messy using the old thread.

I bought the frame from Voicecoils after it had been modified by Kurt, replacing the through axle rear dropouts with vertical dropouts with stainless reinforcements.

The original thread is here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=225


This is actually the 5th frame I've built an e-bike with, hopefully I will get it right one day..


Details:

- 2003 Giant DH Team frame, modded by Kurt. A BMC/MAC Shanghai or Crystalyte motor fits in the dropouts nicely. The axle on a Bafang BPM Climber was too short (nice motor though).

- MAC Shanghai motor, fitted with a metal gear, although I fear it will be too noisy (stealth is important..).

- Infineon 18 FET Controller, a spare from Voicecoils. Overkill for this motor, I will have to drop the current back to ~30A, or I will kill the motor, and kill my range. Even so, at 60v 30A it has 100Nm of torque on the ebikes.ca simulator :twisted: The controller is programmable, so I have a few ways to control the current (program it, use controller throttle limit switches, or use CA override).

- 60v nominal, 10AH Headway batteries. A 48v pack + 4 booster cells for 20 cells total. 74v off charger, settles to 66v, then 60v under cruising load.

- 7 Speed rear, XTR short cage derailleur, 7 speed twist shifter on LH handlebar (upside down).

- 56t Chainring, I want to be able to pedal at speed (yes, I still pedal hard). Made possible by a 4 bolt to 5 bolt chainring adapter made by TPA. BIG THANKS TO TPA FOR SENDING THIS TO ME!!!

- Modded chainguide to stop chain falling off. It would only handle 48t stock. Will skip the lower roller/jocky wheel for now.

- Custom battery box on the way, the foam male cores have been milled. Now it needs fibreglassing + assembly + painting. Not carbon, it's too much of a PITA, and with a male mould I can hide the sins if I paint it....there will be sins to hide.. Will use some tough/rubbery wear resistant paint.

- Will get red Marzocchi Bomber Junior T Triple clamp forks from current ebike, sans front hub. And insane 5 x Cree Q5 front headlights, 1250 lumens total.

- Controller will mount on Downtube with an ally jiffy box holding my DC-DC converter and wiring bundle.

Anyway, pics:
Attachments
battery box male moulds.jpg
brake adapter2.jpg
brake adapter.jpg
machining_box.jpg
styled_box.jpg
Last edited by Mark_A_W on Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:28 pm

More!!
Attachments
brakes and shifter.jpg
chainring.jpg
drivetrain.jpg
layout 1.jpg
battery_space.jpg
Last edited by Mark_A_W on Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:28 pm

Ok, time for another update.

A significant milestone has been reached - the "bike" part of the build is pretty much done. Got the Bomber forks fitted, got a new front wheel, with matching rim to my rear wheel. And it's 10mm solid axle, which suits as it's stronger, and I have to carry a spanner anyway.


Big wide 30mm rims make my Hookworm tyres nice and fat :)

I do still need to fit a stronger spring to the rear shock, and rebuild the Bombers as after 3 years with a front hub the seals are leaking. But the bike WORKS as a bike. My lowest gear is 2:1, it is possible to pedal it without the motor, but I will be walking up hills if the electrics fail.


The battery box is glassed, I've just got to neaten it up - bog, sand and paint it. Then figure out how to mount it and the controller neatly...


Then do all the wiring...


One setback, due to my own stupidity. I dished the wheel to get the rim in the middle of the axle...but when I put it in the bike frame, the frame expects an off-centre rim. Meaning I need no dish. And the wheel is so solid, with bound spoke crossings, and now I gotta go and mess with it. Oh well.

I'm pretty happy with how things are turning out - getting help from Full-Throttle and Voicecoils - ta guys.


Edit: More progress.

I've tested the controller layout, and with the wiring box below it, the front mudguard hits the wheel. So the box has gotta go, and the controller will be moved down. Of coarse, now I have NFI where I am going to hide my wiring connections and DC-DC converter. I'd rather not try and cram them all into the battery box, and the DC needs airflow anyway (was going to screw it to the metal box as a heatsink).

Battery box is now being bogged and sanded.

Bought a rear mudguard which I'm not happy with - it's a bit outlandish, and would work better mounted on the swingarm. I may get another, or cut and mount this one down there on a bracket.


Cheers

Mark
Attachments
ARRRRWWW!!!.jpg
backview.jpg
Its a bike.jpg
Wheel Build2.jpg
layout.jpg
rear wheel.jpg
batmobike.jpg
bogged.jpg
battery_layout.jpg
mudguards and controller mounted.jpg
Last edited by Mark_A_W on Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:28 pm

This should do it for future pics..
Attachments
the last thing you see.jpg
behind.jpg
kiss my behind.jpg
Last edited by Mark_A_W on Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by etard » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Wow Mark, it looks like alot of thought has gone into this. I have always liked your builds ever since I got on ES. This has great features: a chainring to pedal at a good clip, nice hydro brakes, Bombers nothin wrong with those, and a frickn Light Saber!!! Did you buy one of those 5 LED Cree flashlights on Ebay? I bought a single and can imagine how 5 turn dark into light!! Hi/lo switch? Keep it up man, great work.

Ps... Love those torque arms, they look alot like mine, cut grind sand to dropout contours? That's what I did, I put a bolt through cuz I wasn't so sure about them staying put by squeeze only.
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by AussieJester » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:40 pm

Liking the frame very 'exy' ...What method will you be using for the battery enclosure? Foam to be used
as a plug to make a mould or simply coating the foam with glass then digging the foam out? If the later (im sure
your already aware
) that the resin will dissolve the foam and will be taking measures to prevent this..

Best of luck

KiM

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:48 pm

etard wrote:Wow Mark, it looks like alot of thought has gone into this. I have always liked your builds ever since I got on ES. This has great features: a chainring to pedal at a good clip, nice hydro brakes, Bombers nothin wrong with those, and a frickn Light Saber!!! Did you buy one of those 5 LED Cree flashlights on Ebay? I bought a single and can imagine how 5 turn dark into light!! Hi/lo switch? Keep it up man, great work.

Ps... Love those torque arms, they look alot like mine, cut grind sand to dropout contours? That's what I did, I put a bolt through cuz I wasn't so sure about them staying put by squeeze only.
No, the lights are 5 individual Cree modules in ally tubes - I'll get a pic. One of them flashes.

Kurt made the dropouts/torque arms.

AussieJester wrote:Liking the frame very 'exy' ...What method will you be using for the battery enclosure? Foam to be used
as a plug to make a mould or simply coating the foam with glass then digging the foam out? If the later (im sure
your already aware
) that the resin will dissolve the foam and will be taking measures to prevent this..

Best of luck

KiM

We are going to use epoxy resin so the foam doesn't dissolve, in a vacuum bag with a light vacuum applied.

Then dissolve the foam out with thinners or petrol.

Or so my father-in-law suggested, he's a boat builder, I defer to him in this area.

Mark
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by AussieJester » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:27 pm

Mark_A_W wrote:
Or so my father-in-law suggested, he's a boat builder, I defer to him in this area.

Mark

Excellent, should be a snappy box when done!! Petrol or acetone makes short work of the foam for sure hehe..

really look forward to seeing this, I'm guessing your saw the this neat fiberglass battery box if not check it out VERY similar in design the best effort i have seen as far as a fiberglass battery enclosures go...

KiM

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:43 pm

Yep saw that one.


Yours looks very nice too.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Hyena » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:31 pm

Cool, what are the specs on that MAC motor ? What sort of speed are you expecting on 60v ?
How big is your rear disc ? The motor looks pretty small. It sounds like it could be a nice little performer and would probably be fairly stealthy if not for the noise. I guess you need the metal gears though, especially for offroad use.
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:11 pm

It is almost identical to a BMC motor, but the winding is in between the speed and torque BMC versions. It is rated as 48v 500w. It is a 203mm disc, the motor is not small, it's about 185mm in diameter.


At 60v the no load speed is 74kmh.

At 45kmh I need about 800w to maintain the speed. The MAC motor will allow me to draw up to 1300w, with a 30A current limit (it's still on the limit at that speed), so on paper it should be good to mid-50's.

I suspect I will have to reduce the current further, maybe to 20A to ensure motor survival.

I hope to cruise at 45-50kmh.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by dbaker » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:02 pm

Really nice build, Mark!

I am facing a lot of the same problems you did with my Giant Faith 2 DH build. It has 2 small chain rings with a non standard length bottom bracket and I, like you, like to pedal at high speed. I see you used an adapter to get a 56t chain ring on. Did you decide to only use 1 chain ring? I may end up making a similar adapter if I can't adapt a road crankset. These DH bikes with long bottom brackets that have external bearings appear to be a very strong system for dealing with impact loads of full rider weight.

Dave

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:25 pm

dbaker wrote: Did you decide to only use 1 chain ring?

Dave

Yep.

Well, this bike is only designed for one chainring. There is nowhere to mount a derailleur, it has to run a chainguide from the BB. It wasn't really a choice...
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:49 am

Well, after a few speedbumps (fun and games with hall and phase connections, and a tab weld failure leading to BMS damage leading to a dead cell in my main battery pack...)

I now have the motor running and full-throttle has the controller programming working :)


Here is a movie of the metal gear MAC motor at 48v (jumped off my other ebike)...hope the link works.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1372034/P1020563.MOV



Next is build the damn battery box, then wire it all up.

Then strip the rim, throttle/handlebars and headlights/dc convertor from my other ebike, which will return to pedal only....and get some TLC as the suspension bearings are getting really creaky..
Attachments
bike factory.jpg
jump start.jpg
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by cell_man » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:49 am

Mark_A_W wrote:It is almost identical to a BMC motor, but the winding is in between the speed and torque BMC versions. It is rated as 48v 500w. It is a 203mm disc, the motor is not small, it's about 185mm in diameter.


At 60v the no load speed is 74kmh.

At 45kmh I need about 800w to maintain the speed. The MAC motor will allow me to draw up to 1300w, with a 30A current limit (it's still on the limit at that speed), so on paper it should be good to mid-50's.

I suspect I will have to reduce the current further, maybe to 20A to ensure motor survival.

I hope to cruise at 45-50kmh.
Hi Mark,

is that the 350W at 36V motor you've got there? If so why that that 1 rather than the 500W at 36V? Just curious :)

I've ordered a few high rpm 500W motors that I wanted to try as a dual motor bike at 48V. Standard is about 320rpm at 36V. These are about 30% faster. The standard winding was running out of rpm very quickly at 48V, Mac in the front and 500W climber in the rear.
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:19 pm

cell_man wrote:
Hi Mark,

is that the 350W at 36V motor you've got there? If so why that that 1 rather than the 500W at 36V? Just curious :)

I've ordered a few high rpm 500W motors that I wanted to try as a dual motor bike at 48V. Standard is about 320rpm at 36V. These are about 30% faster. The standard winding was running out of rpm very quickly at 48V, Mac in the front and 500W climber in the rear.

It's the 500w version. At 60v the no load speed will be over 70kmh (so I might get to ~55 or so).
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by full-throttle » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:11 am

cell_man wrote:is that the 350W at 36V motor you've got there? If so why that that 1 rather than the 500W at 36V? Just curious :)

I've ordered a few high rpm 500W motors that I wanted to try as a dual motor bike at 48V. Standard is about 320rpm at 36V. These are about 30% faster. The standard winding was running out of rpm very quickly at 48V, Mac in the front and 500W climber in the rear.
Mark's motor is M12060 36V 500W 365rpm. Now, why would he want a faster winding?? This hijacking of threads with an intent to selling motors and cells is beginning to annoy me.

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:41 pm

Update at the top guys (third post).
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:17 pm

Added more pics to the 3rd post.

I want to keep them all at the start.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by AussieJester » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:36 pm

Good too see some progress Mark, the battery enclosure is a lil wider than i thought it would be, no clearance issues when pedalling?

Love the frame too what is the model of it, just syas 2003 Downhill frame...is that how it would be advertsied ? i think my mate would be keen on it, i have download the pic will show him, he wants me to build him a e-bike up in a month or so...

KiM

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Mark_A_W » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:50 pm

It's a Giant DH Team, 2003.

It had a through axle originally, not at all suitable for a hub motor. Kurt welded it up, cut vertical dropouts, and fabricated SS side plates as torque arms.



And yes, the box is too wide at the moment - at least 20mm too wide. It's two halves (with overlapping joint), it was "overbuilt" for glassing, and I need to trim it back to size. And make it pretty. Bog sand bog sand paint curse bog sand paint...repeat.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by cell_man » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:54 pm

.
Last edited by cell_man on Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by Kepler » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:57 pm

This is a really well thought out build Mark. I look forward to seeing it. After building my first e-bike, I totally get the path you are taking and can see myself copying quite a few of your bike's features. Full suspension, lighter geared motor with free wheel, big chain ring, super strong dropouts and torque arms, all on my list for my next build. LiPos and maybe a few more volts though. : :twisted:
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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by adrian_sm » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:02 pm

Hey Mark,

What is the latest? I want to see that battery box on the bike.
What colour are you painting it?

@ cell_man

Nice graphs. Can you start a sepereate thread for them. People won't find them here.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: Mark_A_W's DH Team/MAC Shanghai/60v Headway build

Post by full-throttle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:29 pm

Well, here is the data for the motor Mark IS using
M12060 36V500W-performance.pdf
(48.46 KiB) Downloaded 265 times
What makes you think I'm negative about MACs? They have faster winding, have more torque, wider axle and MACs service is the best I've experienced. BPM are cheaper, have better casting, wider gears, stronger freewheel interface, and have seals. That is my honest non-commercially-based comparison. Now, I didn't mind your 1st comment (MAC is stronger) https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30#p227144 but the 2nd (MAC is stronger AND more efficient) https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 06#p232691 just was not fair.

Enough off-topic. Start a new thread "MAC vs BPM" if you want to take it further.

Here's a mech drawing of the MAC
M12060D7(REV01)OUTLINE.pdf
(138.06 KiB) Downloaded 228 times

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