Electric assist Velomobile

I have a WAW velomobile that has a 20a 36-72v controller and a clyte 406-411 mounted in a 26" rear wheel motor with 48v of 18Ah lead acid and one additional 18Ah battery to run the lighting system. My lighting system is composed of four led running/turn signals and a tail/brake light combo, two 35w halogen head lights and a xeon strobe light mounted on top of a bike flag pole. I figuring that the bike weighs about 150 lbs with the electronic system complete. I weigh 200 lbs so there is a total of around 350 lbs. I work 3rd shift and am unable to charge my batteries at work, so I need to make sure that I can make my 26 mile round trip. It looks like I'm getting 19.5W/hr to the mile at 22mph. I would have preferred a motor that ran through the velomobile's gears but having a motor system that was hidden was a higher priority. The hub motor is installed inside the rear wheel fairing. I'm interested in using the DeWalt 36v power tool packs as then I can also mount them inside the rear wheel fairing on a sub frame that I made for towing a trailer. I was hoping to get away with 4 packs but it doesn't look like it now.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/wmbates/518715855/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/234/518715855_f3377d5fdb.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="5-16-07 038"></a>

That photo is before I installed the complete lighting system. There is no more red reflective tape on the rear wheel fairing now there is a six inch tail/brake light that is activated via a reed switch on the brake lever. A rear running light/ turn signal is just to the left of the number 42.

The bike is 8" long by about 3' tall with 4" of ground clearance.For those of you wondering about safety, motor vehicles tend to change lanes to pass me and I have never been buzzed by a vehicle. What does gets me is when a car is making a left turn in front of me and slows way down in the intersection to look at me and I have to slow and wait for them to get out of my way.

Hey, that's great -- the first e-velomobile rider I've met around here. How's riding in the PDX weather? Can you make it up the West Hills if you wanted to (to OHSU, etc)? Any problems with Portland police, or Multnomah/Clackamas/Washington Counties or Oregon State police?

Bill, welcome to the forum. Like xyster, I would expect to get stopped occasionally, since it looks so much like a car, (with no tags), instead of a bike (trike). How fast does it go on the level? I am sure you will get lots of help selecting new batteries from all the experts here.

safe said:

I did manage to see the bike by copy / pasting the link. Looks good. You might want to move this thread to the "Photos and Videos" area though.

Webmaster!

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Sorry, please forgive a 1 µW newbie. I was trying to decide where to post because I did have some questions to ask about the DeWalt batteries however the questions were lost in the editing and spell checking of my post. I new my introduction would fit in the "Photos and Videos" area but was unsure if my questions would. "E-Bike Technical" and "Battery Technology" forums is where I lurk the most and I wanted to make sure that the posters of those forums saw me. I was afraid that if I posted to "Photos and Videos" forum then I might be missed. At the moment I'm not sure how to move a post to a different area or even if I can. If the Moderator "Leaders" wants to move me I understand. I'm on my way to work now and will try to finish posting from there.

My favorite velomobile drool, drool.
If you can loose all of the lead it would be a big help.
How do you find the drag of the c\lyte when unpowered?
How are you finding the velomobile over all?

xyster said:

Hey, that's great -- the first e-velomobile rider I've met around here. How's riding in the PDX weather? Can you make it up the West Hills if you wanted to (to OHSU, etc)? Any problems with Portland police, or Multnomah/Clackamas/Washington Counties or Oregon State police?

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I bought the velomobile specifically for Portland weather. I enjoy riding but not in the rain. I tried riding without a motor but somedays I work up to 16 hours and don't enjoy riding home. I live in SE and work in N. Portland and very rarely have to go to the west side. There is a fellow velomobilist in SE that has a Go-One with a BionX system, he rides daily over the west hills to Hillsboro. I haven't been stopped yet by Portland Police however they have looked me over several times as either they passed me or I passed them. I have been hoping to be stopped as then I can brag about it on the velomobile forums, no luck yet. I believe that in general Portland people are use to bikes of all types on the road.

Geebee said:

My favorite velomobile drool, drool.
If you can loose all of the lead it would be a big help.
How do you find the drag of the c\lyte when unpowered?
How are you finding the velomobile over all?

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IMHO the WAW is the most sexy velomobile being manufactured. It looks fast sitting still. Believe me the lead is on the list to go. I'm carrying 60 lbs that needs to go. I have only peddled the WAW for short distances and it wasn't to bad. The Clyte doesn't push me faster than 22mpg at 48v and above 25mph me WattsUp shows no power going to the motor. Going home last night I was able to keep up wirh a car doing 35mph for two miles because I was on a slight down hill grade.

When I first got the WAW I felt that the quality control left something to be desired. Now I don't feel so strongly about it and admire the design and costruction.
I have been reading your post on the advantages of front and/or rear fairings or the complete velomobile package and must agree with you. Aerodynamics play a large role.

Rassy said:

Bill, welcome to the forum. Like xyster, I would expect to get stopped occasionally, since it looks so much like a car, (with no tags), instead of a bike (trike). How fast does it go on the level? I am sure you will get lots of help selecting new batteries from all the experts here.

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The WAW along with the majority of velomobile are computer vehicles and not race vehicles. That being said the WAW is second in speed and efficiency only to the Quest velomobile. I have read about races involving the WAW and I seem to recall reading about them doing 35 mph for an hour race I personally have coasted from a full stop to 42 mph down hill on a six foot bike path. That was a little scary because the steering started to become very sensitive and when I braked the bike does have brake steering with only two front brakes and two brake levers. If I tried to brake lightly then the WAW would pull in the direction of the first lever pulled in. It took me a while to learn how to brake and now I think that brake steering is fun (in the right area) The fastest I have peddled is 25 mph at a cadence of around 105. This top speed is the same with or without the motor. The motor in a 26" wheel will get me to around 22 mph and if I peddle then at 25 mph the motor no longer is drawing any current and I max out at 105 cadence. The WAW was geared low for the hills here in Portland but in my physical condition I could not power the WAW home in a satisfactory time. My physical condition along with me working up to 16 hour days is what pushed me towards an electric assist, though it was planed to get a motor from the beginning. I did try the velomobile for two months unassisted and what I learned is that I loved ridding into work but loathed ridding home. The electric assist evened it out and brought my commute times to a respectable 40 minutes instead of an hour and half to two hours. I don't have any volcanoes to climb here in Portland :wink: however my trip does skirt two volcano cinder cones and they would wear me out and cause me to stop, rest and catch my breath. Now with the electric assist I hardly notice them

48 volts worth of the Dewalt powertool batteries you're interested in, and a 35 or 40 amp controller, would really lighten the load, more than double your Mt. Tabor hill-climbing power, and almost double your top assist speed.
Since the dewalt packs are 33 volts, that would take some intra-pack modification though. Another good option would be two dewalt packs in series for 66 volts and enough in parallel to give you the range you need. The top assist speed may be too high at full throttle, but that way, you'd only have to tap into each pack's power leads below the BMS board, but wouldn't have to modify the cell count. Milwaukee V28 packs are another good option that Jondoh and Maytag here use.

I want one, cant imagine what the gf would say though, I am surprised it doesnt go faster, all that wieght might be a factor. I predict 40 mph in your very near future.

newbie electric rider said:

I want one, cant imagine what the gf would say though, I am surprised it doesnt go faster, all that wieght might be a factor. I predict 40 mph in your very near future.

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I think that the weight has a lot to do with it however the voltage I'm running is also a factor in the speed.

One thing I know is that the body of the velomobile is playing a huge role in my total distance traveled. Last year I had the same setup (but a front wheel clyte) in an adult upright trike 48v (same batteries) would take me 12 miles with peddling only on the hills at a top speed of 18 mph and the batteries would be flat. I work 13 miles away so I added another battery to bring the voltage up to 60v. My speed went to 22 mph and I was able to make it to work with a little juice to spare. Then I'd have to disconnect my batteries and carry or tow them on a luggage carrier down a long hall and up to the third floor where they would charge for 7.5 hours. Now in the velomobile at 48v I can make the drive to work and only require a 3.5 hour charge or make the round trip batteries not having gone flat yet 49v showing for the pack and need a 7 hour charge. I was really surprised and am very pleased on the aerodynamic assistance of the WAW.

I see 66v of DeWalt packs powering me soon (soon as I can afford them)

My upright ebike chews around an extra 500W at 40mph without the windscreen and 1/4 fairing. At 30mph it's a few hundred watts difference.

that bike looks like it is going fast at a standstill. I am already thinking of paint schemes. The reduced friction, from aerodynamics played a huge part in your extended range, also reducing the wieght would help as well. You pointed out that going down a bike path got the speed up to the 40+ mph with the help of gravity. I am very surprised, with the 48 volts on a 406 is not getting you better speed though , i must be missing something. my 406 on a mountain bike, has a top speed, of 52km/hr.

xyster said:

48 volts worth of the Dewalt powertool batteries you're interested in, and a 35 or 40 amp controller, would really lighten the load, more than double your Mt. Tabor hill-climbing power, and almost double your top assist speed.
Since the dewalt packs are 33 volts, that would take some intra-pack modification though. Another good option would be two dewalt packs in series for 66 volts and enough in parallel to give you the range you need. The top assist speed may be too high at full throttle, but that way, you'd only have to tap into each pack's power leads below the BMS board, but wouldn't have to modify the cell count. Milwaukee V28 packs are another good option that Jondoh and Maytag here use.

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Now we're talking. I'm not knowledgeable at this point to modify, rebuild and/or restructure battery packs with the exception of tapping into the power leads below the BMS boards. I think the series/parallel is the easiest route for me. I looked at the Milwaukee packs on eBay, the DeWalts look like a better deal to me.

I had said that I had a 20a controller but am really unsure. I do know that it is 36-72v dual speed and has a reverse key. There are no markings on the outside of the controller, any ideas? btw, the reverse I consider almost a necessity at the leas it makes life easier backing the velomobile up.

I understand getting faster top end speed due to higher voltage but I thought that the higher amp controller would just get me to speed quicker. How does a higher amp controller help with top end speed. One thing that need to be considered is that with the motor controller being in the nose fairing section, it is dry but also has no air flow to speak of for cooling.

If I ran 8 DeWalt packs in a series/parallel at 66v 10ah how do you think that would compare to my 48v 18ah lead acid. I know that the weight would go down ant top end speed would go up but how about distance? I pull 8-9ah or 500wh out of the lead acid batteries for my round trip. Right now I have 48v x 18ah for 864wh the DeWalts would get me 66v x 10ah for 660wh. Can I pull that many w/h from those A123's? Or should I aim for a higher a/h pack? I really don't understand the energy avaliable in the different battery chemistries except that I'm using the worst choice, Pb

mi7d1 said:

Now we're talking. I'm not knowledgeable at this point to modify, rebuild and/or restructure battery packs with the exception of tapping into the power leads below the BMS boards. I think the series/parallel is the easiest route for me. I looked at the Milwaukee packs on eBay, the DeWalts look like a better deal to me.

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Have you thought about how you want to charge the DeWalts?

I had said that I had a 20a controller but am really unsure. I do know that it is 36-72v dual speed and has a reverse key. There are no markings on the outside of the controller, any ideas? btw, the reverse I consider almost a necessity at the leas it makes life easier backing the velomobile up.

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I don't know for sure either. The dual-mode ones I see are all 20 amps and either 48 volts or 72 volts. Before you give it 66 volts, I'd make sure of the model!
http://www.bernsonev.com/crystalyte-dualspeed-motor-speed-controller-p-576.html
http://www.poweridestore.com/Crystalyte/20A36V-72V-DUAL-SPEED-CONTROLLER-Instant-Start-with-Cruise-C

I understand getting faster top end speed due to higher voltage but I thought that the higher amp controller would just get me to speed quicker. How does a higher amp controller help with top end speed.

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Wind resistance at higher speeds may not effect your velomobile enough for extra amps to increase top speed. Many upright bikes with 20 amp controllers are a good deal slower than the same bikes with 35 amp controller at the same voltage because wind resistance is the limiting factor and depending on motor winding and wheel size, there often isn't enough power at 20 amps to overcome 30mph of wind resistance.
This calculator can tell you the exact power needed to maintain a certain speed:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

If I ran 8 DeWalt packs in a series/parallel at 66v 10ah how do you think that would compare to my 48v 18ah lead acid. I know that the weight would go down ant top end speed would go up but how about distance?

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I think you'd get about 25% more range from the 66v10ah pack if you ride in the same manner over the same terrain as with the 48v 18ah SLA pack. The ratio for SLA:Lithium of the same AH rating is about 2:1 in typical ebiking. Probably the ratio is a little better for SLA on a velomobile because the amp draw will be a lot lower for the same speed. SLA amp-hour ratings are calculated from a 20-hour depletion rate.

I pull 8-9ah or 500wh out of the lead acid batteries for my round trip. Right now I have 48v x 18ah for 864wh the DeWalts would get me 66v x 10ah for 660wh. Can I pull that many w/h from those A123's?

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As you mentioned, the 66v10ah Dewalt pack is about 660 watt-hours, compared to 864 for your SLA pack, which under ebike-type loads really means 660 real-life W-H for the dewalt versus the 500 real-life W-H for the SLA.

Or should I aim for a higher a/h pack? I really don't understand the energy avaliable in the different battery chemistries except that I'm using the worst choice, Pb

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Depends I suppose on if the lighter batteries and longer runtime opens up new avenues, making you want to explore more, or take the velo where you wouldn't have taken it before.

newbie electric rider said:

that bike looks like it is going fast at a standstill. I am already thinking of paint schemes. The reduced friction, from aerodynamics played a huge part in your extended range, also reducing the wieght would help as well. You pointed out that going down a bike path got the speed up to the 40+ mph with the help of gravity. I am very surprised, with the 48 volts on a 406 is not getting you better speed though , i must be missing something. my 406 on a mountain bike, has a top speed, of 52km/hr.

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The 42 mph down hill was when the bike had no motor or batteries installed.

I was told the motor was a 406-411 Perhaps I'm driving around in the 411 mode, though I doubt it

The color of my velomobile is called Sulfur Yellow, It was not my first choice. I realy liked the color or the WAW next to mine here at BentUp Cycles in Van Nuys, Ca. It is Lamborghini Orange
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/wmbates/518675072/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/518675072_66091436f4.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="4-06-07 013"></a>

and the paint cost three times as much, so I decided to get another color. Being in the rainy NW area and ridding at night and all hours I looked around me and the one and only color that stood out at all times was yellow. I could see a yellow car miles down the road when all others has disappeared. Yellow it was to be, I just had to choose the shade of yellow. Another factor was/is that if I were to get a sponsorship I wanted a light base color so that the sponsor's add would show and not compete with the base color. In Europe some velomobilist are getting upwards of 300€ (euro) a month for advertising on the sides of their velomobiles. My fellow velomobilist here in Portland has a sponsor, "Dragonfly Chi" and is paid $100 a month for the add. There are some beautiful velomobile artwork that I've seen on the net. My favorite is called the "Celtic Quest" http://www.velomobiling.com/gallery/Velomobile1/Circus/CelticQuest.html and if you scroll to the bottom of this page you can see the Celtic Quest reflecting it's design http://home.hetnet.nl/~jackdekker/algemeen/marita/celticquest/

xyster said:

Have you thought about how you want to charge the DeWalts?

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I had originally planed to have one charger per battery pack connected at all times and tap off below the BMS as you mentioned before then have all chargers plugged into a multi outlet and have one extension cable to power all the chargers

http://www.poweridestore.com/Crystalyte/20A36V-72V-DUAL-SPEED-CONTROLLER-Instant-Start-with-Cruise-C

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That looks like what I have. I see the power on/off button, the dual speed switch and the reverse key switch.

This calculator can tell you the exact power needed to maintain a certain speed:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

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That calculator nail my speed exactly. Streamlined trike like Quest, 200lb rider, 150lb bike, 25mph wind speed and 300watts of power 21.2mph. At 22mph my WattsUp meter is showing just over 300w being used. Looks like its a combination of wind speed and having a third tire on the ground. On the other hand only the Streamlined Lowracer was more efficient, but by a wide margin.

I think you'd get about 25% more range from the 66v10ah pack if you ride in the same manner over the same terrain as with the 48v 18ah SLA pack. The ratio for SLA:Lithium of the same AH rating is about 2:1 in typical ebiking. Probably the ratio is a little better for SLA on a velomobile because the amp draw will be a lot lower for the same speed. SLA amp-hour ratings are calculated from a 20-hour depletion rate.

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That's good to hear. I knew that there was a difference in the available energy but was unsure what it was

mi7d1 said:

I pull 8-9ah or 500wh out of the lead acid batteries for my round trip. Right now I have 48v x 18ah for 864wh the DeWalts would get me 66v x 10ah for 660wh. Can I pull that many w/h from those A123's?

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As you mentioned, the 66v10ah Dewalt pack is about 660 watt-hours, compared to 864 for your SLA pack, which under ebike-type loads really means 660 real-life W-H for the dewalt versus the 500 real-life W-H for the SLA.

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That's some more good news.

mi7d1 said:

Or should I aim for a higher a/h pack? I really don't understand the energy avaliable in the different battery chemistries except that I'm using the worst choice, Pb

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Depends I suppose on if the lighter batteries and longer runtime opens up new avenues, making you want to explore more, or take the velo where you wouldn't have taken it before.

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More range is good. It also means less stress on daily battery use

Here's an interesting page:
http://home.hetnet.nl/~michelvanmaastricht/AFOT.htm

Hey Paul! A lot of that stuff is either vaporwarz or isnt made anymore! The MG looks cool and the Aerorider is a wonderful velo, though! Up around 14000USD I believe. At least someone is trying!
otherDoc