Max voltage / amps / wattage running through 4 series C-lyte

BiGH · Jun 19, 2007

HI everyone,
Whats the most wattage, voltage and current that's been passed through the crystalite 4 series motors?

I'm still completely up in the air as to which motor to get.

Kindest Regards,
Haydon

Stevil_Knevil · Jun 20, 2007

Hi Hayden,

I have run a 72V pack of 10Ah SLAs through a stock 36-72V @ 35A C-lyte controller to a 404 mounted in a 16" wheel for 41.5 MPH measured by GPS.. FUN!

Hill-climbability was not compromised.

I recently completed the upgrade to 4110 FETs (thanks Fechter & Knoxie) in a 36-48V @ 20A C-lyte controller. Running 72V has been uneventful, somewhere around 35 MPH with headroom for a 7th batt.

Laughing out-loud riding up hills, I understand why all those mad scientists from the old sci-fi films threw their heads back and laughed like they did.. It's working THAT well.

-Stevil

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

Stevil_Knevil said:
Hi Hayden,

I have run a 72V pack of 10Ah SLAs through a stock 36-72V @ 35A C-lyte controller to a 404 mounted in a 16" wheel for 41.5 MPH measured by GPS.. FUN!

Hill-climbability was not compromised.

ouch - the acceleration on the 16" wheel would be intense!

to get similar performance on a 26" rim - would that mean getting something like a 406 or 408?

edit: the ebikes.ca simulator states on a 700c rim (which i'm thinking of running) with a 408 and 72v i'd be looking at 70kph - or roughly 35mph top speed. http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/. actually i'm thinking i'm not reading it properly :S

Stevil_Knevil said:
I recently completed the upgrade to 4110 FETs (thanks Fechter & Knoxie) in a 36-48V @ 20A C-lyte controller. Running 72V has been uneventful, somewhere around 35 MPH with headroom for a 7th batt.

Laughing out-loud riding up hills, I understand why all those mad scientists from the old sci-fi films threw their heads back and laughed like they did.. It's working THAT well.

-Stevil

when you say uneventful, do you mean not blowing anything or not very fun?

35MPH -45MPH is where i want to be at. I have a lot of wide smooth bike lanes on the side of the road to ride. i'm still moving between the puma, 4xx series and 5xx series.... There isn't enough info on the cannon - i'd love to try one, but the lack of info is annoying.

The 5 series just seems too heavy. If i could get a setup light enough i might try and mount it on a flat bar roady (with 135mm dropouts)

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

could it be possible to run 3 X 36v?!?!? (with modded controller of course) 108v?

i'm guessing the BMS of the Lithium batteries would have to support this too.

so many questions so hard to understand. :S

I'm pretty sure i've decided on the c-lyte 4 series... just gotta work out which damm winding i should get...GRRR

HELP! - might have to start a thread on this too.

I will say this though - i will be writing a guide to chooseing motors once my bike is done!

xyster · Jun 20, 2007

There's a thread over at the PowerAssist group from a guy whose 40x fried after he bumped the voltage just over 72V (35 amps I think) -- that's the only problem I've heard of like that. Seems to me the problem with 3500 watts on the 40x will be dissipating all the extra heat. Only one way to find out, right?

Jozzer · Jun 20, 2007

I'm running 84v @ 30A, and I have to agree with Xyster. It runs fine and reliably, accellerates quickly, with a top speed around 40MPH, BUT it will overheat if used at max power for too long. (408 in 24"). With this much power you need to be "mechanicaly sympathetic"!
I'd say around 1500W is all the 4 series can manage continuously, and that when its not too hot out! Having said that, it can happily manage a blast up a medium hill, or full speed for a fair whack on the level @ 2kw+ :lol:

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

xyster said:
There's a thread over at the PowerAssist group from a guy whose 40x fried after he bumped the voltage just over 72V (35 amps I think) -- that's the only problem I've heard of like that. Seems to me the problem with 3500 watts on the 40x will be dissipating all the extra heat. Only one way to find out, right?

Thanks Xyster, I know its a lot to ask but do you have a link to the discussion? (or to the group) - i'm too much of a newbie to know the PA group!

Jozzer said:
I'm running 84v @ 30A, and I have to agree with Xyster. It runs fine and reliably, accellerates quickly, with a top speed around 40MPH, BUT it will overheat if used at max power for too long. (408 in 24"). With this much power you need to be "mechanicaly sympathetic"!
I'd say around 1500W is all the 4 series can manage continuously, and that when its not too hot out! Having said that, it can happily manage a blast up a medium hill, or full speed for a fair whack on the level @ 2kw+ :lol:

I think I'll be ending up doing this. 40MPH is the maximum i was looking for. If i bump it up to a higher voltage I'll definatly have a temp sensor hooked up. Is there a warning for overheating of the motors? or do they just burn up?

AND a general question - which would have the higher ability to run voltages - the puma or the 4 series?

If there was a bit more info on the cannon i'd prolly run that insted (but since its completely unknown i'm dubious!), however that being said i'm VERY tempted to just go stuffit, and get one. I've emailed every shop i could find that lists it, (including c-lyte themselves) and am awaiting replies!

I think I'll limit my choice to the 4 series and once i've saved a couple of weeks petrol - that should pay for the cannon as an experimental motor

fechter · Jun 20, 2007

BiGH said:
HELP! - might have to start a thread on this too.

I will say this though - i will be writing a guide to chooseing motors once my bike is done!

That's on my "to do" list. There is a lot of information scattered throughout the forum, but I want to pull something together for newbies.
Any help there would be appreciated.

If you really want to push a 4xx motor to the limits, you could consider drilling one out for extra cooling. :wink:

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

fechter said:
That's on my "to do" list. There is a lot of information scattered throughout the forum, but I want to pull something together for newbies.
Any help there would be appreciated.

If you really want to push a 4xx motor to the limits, you could consider drilling one out for extra cooling. :wink:

Awesome

no problems. I've already got a list of things i want to cover - like how to read those motor sim graphs.

I won't b drilling the motor - intend to run the bike rain hail or sun (which we get a lot more of due to global warming).

I'm in the process of searching through the forums for 406, 408 409 and reading people's views on the different motors

For me it's important to have an upgrade path just in case one is needed tho

Jozzer · Jun 20, 2007

4 series can take the voltage for sure, Puma's are as yet untested by the masses. I would think though that the puma could take much less for any period of time, it apparently weighs only a couple of KG, almost a quarter of the 40X and must heat up must faster as a result. At least it should remain a little more efficient on the slopes though, which means it will waste less energy trying to overheat.
As the 40X heats up you can feel the power drop off slightly (as it becomes less efficient), but you could quite easily go too far and burn it I would think. Mechanical Sympathy FTW! 20A at high voltage does a very reasonable job though, the motor feels very responsive, and heats up much slower than at 30A. Ultimatly your going to have to experiment, keep a IR temp probe with you for a while, and keep your wallet open till you end up with a reliable and fastasposs machine :roll:

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

Jozzer said:
4 series can take the voltage for sure, Puma's are as yet untested by the masses. I would think though that the puma could take much less for any period of time, it apparently weighs only a couple of KG, almost a quarter of the 40X and must heat up must faster as a result. At least it should remain a little more efficient on the slopes though, which means it will waste less energy trying to overheat.
As the 40X heats up you can feel the power drop off slightly (as it becomes less efficient), but you could quite easily go too far and burn it I would think. Mechanical Sympathy FTW! 20A at high voltage does a very reasonable job though, the motor feels very responsive, and heats up much slower than at 30A. Ultimatly your going to have to experiment, keep a IR temp probe with you for a while, and keep your wallet open till you end up with a reliable and fastasposs machine

Sounds like thats the way to go

thanks for the info. I wasn't aware that the 40X is 4x heavier than the puma - my god!

far out every question i have creates a barrage of more questions...

To the people running the puma motors at 46-72v are you using a c-lyte controller? i think i remember this being written somewhere'

would it generate less heat to have a higher or lower winding count - ie 406 would generate more heat at 40mph than a 409?

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

ok cannon is still in the game - apparantly the axle is 9mm suitable for standard bikes, and won't require the dropouts being modified (as opposed to 3/8" - 9.525mm for the 4 and 5 series)

and is a cruiser of a motor need 2 find out about weight cf to 4 and 5 series!

Ypedal · Jun 20, 2007

Small wheels... high count ie: 409 and up ! forget the 406.

If you can mod a controller for 3 x 36v Lithium packs ( and a BMS that supports it ) go with a 4011 in a 20" !

I agree with the above.. 1500w in medium to cool weather is no problem for the 4 series. If you had to run in 30+ celcius weather up very long and steep hills... keep it below 1200 continuous.

I've run my dual speed up some slopes ( slope as in hill but no mountains ) with 2 x 36v + 12v booster nimh pack for 96v off the charger operating at 84v under load at 20 amps and the motor was warm.. not hot. as in keep your hand on it without cringing.. guessing 45 celcius or so.

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

Ypedal said:
Small wheels... high count ie: 409 and up ! forget the 406.

If you can mod a controller for 3 x 36v Lithium packs ( and a BMS that supports it ) go with a 4011 in a 20" !

I agree with the above.. 1500w in medium to cool weather is no problem for the 4 series. If you had to run in 30+ celcius weather up very long and steep hills... keep it below 1200 continuous.

I've run my dual speed up some slopes ( slope as in hill but no mountains ) with 2 x 36v + 12v booster nimh pack for 96v off the charger operating at 84v under load at 20 amps and the motor was warm.. not hot. as in keep your hand on it without cringing.. guessing 45 celcius or so.

mmm very interesting, i'm pretty definate on running a 700c rim as i'm intending to try it on eihter a flat bar road bike or hybrid style bike or possibly my road bike for a quick stint just to see how the aeros affect topspeed.

I'm beginning to understand the way the windings work i think. so that would mean me using a higher winding yes?

(oh i'm 175 pounds if that helps)

xyster · Jun 20, 2007

I remember Dom was running his 4xx at 100 volts, 20 amps to excellent effect.

Anyway BiGH, here's that PA reference you requested:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/29165

"A while back there was a bit of discussion between Steve Head, myself and a couple others wondering how far you can push a Crystalyte motor.

I ran a recumbent with a Crystalyte 408 in a 20" wheel on a 25 cell li-ion bayttery (90v nominal, ~106v peak). It was a blast for about a month but it eventually failed. I haven't disassembled the motor yet but it appears to have developed a very low resistance internal short. At first I thought it was just the controller that fried but when I tried a second controller it immediately popped too upon connecting power to the batteries. This was while using a 20 amp fuse for protection. The fuse burned in each case but I guess not fast enough.

It was a blast while it lasted. I'm back to running on a 20 cell (72v nominal, ~85v peak) pack and it seems gutless by comparison. On the 25 cell pack I was cruising 36-37 mph which was just fast enough to hold my own in traffic on most Chicago streets. "

BiGH · Jun 20, 2007

Massive thankyou Xyster!!!!! seriously i really appreciate it.

I also got this pearl of wisdom about running the 408 motor, especially since 30ah was what i was intending on battery wise (2x 36v 30ah LiMn) would give me much more range that i would normally use in a day(albeit at a lower speed). giving scope for reduced battery life - meaning its cheeper over the long run!

"My Xtracycle bike also with a 408 in a 20" rear wheel is still going
great. I've only run it on 72v though....."

"Using 6 packs 10ah 36v li-ion packs configured 30ah x 72v I did a 120 mile
ride a couple weeks ago and still had a bit of charge to spare. I
mostly rode between 20 and 25 mph and was still able to hit 26 mph at
the end of the ride. On a similar ride on an unassisted bike I only
averaged a 16 mph pace so the assist netted me a pretty significant
performance boost. ""

Max voltage / amps / wattage running through 4 series C-lyte

BiGH

100 kW

Stevil_Knevil

10 kW

BiGH

100 kW

BiGH

100 kW

xyster

10 MW

Jozzer

100 kW

BiGH

100 kW

fechter

Administrator

BiGH

100 kW

Jozzer

100 kW

BiGH

100 kW

BiGH

100 kW

Ypedal

Moderator

BiGH

100 kW

xyster

10 MW

BiGH

100 kW

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