Advice for my ebike build - MXUS Motor and LiPo

pepe.w

1 mW
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
18
Location
Ontario, Canada
Hey everyone,

I've been reading posts here and on some other ebike forums for the past month and a half researching my options, but just now decided to post for the first time, so here goes. I'm planning to build my first ebike from a kit, and would appreciate any and all advice. Thanks a lot in advance.

Pretty much I want a high powered kit that can stand easily support speeds of around 40kmph for extended periods of time, with a big enough battery that I can easily have a 60+km range. This is especially important because I plan to use the bike for long trips and for hauling lots of cargo (groceries and the like), and since I have decided to use LiPo batteries I can't afford to barely make it back home. I have extensively researched the various safety issues that these batteries can pose and don't want to have to pedal a DD motor home to avoid over-discharging.

Also, I'm planning to buy/build a fire-proof bag or box for charging just in case - if anyone can make any suggestions as to what material I should use, or where to buy something suitable I'd appreciate it.

Going over my options, I found a supplier that is local to me and seems to offer a kit at a reasonable price at AtypicalEV.com. However, I could find next to no reviews online. Has anybody on the forum ordered from him before? I haven't gone in person to check out his work, but if his website is to be believed then it seems like a fairly robust system and would save me the hassle of upgrading an ebay kit myself and soldering my own battery.

Lastly, what is the general opinion on MXUS motors? Again, I couldn't find many reviews, although those that I did find seemed to be generally positive. Mainly I want to know if you can buy a 3kw MXUS motor, or if he upgraded a smaller motor to feed it 3kw. I'll be able to check this out when I go, but I'd like be as knowledgeable as possible of before then.

Ill be checking back here often, let me know if there's any info you'd need that I missed or if I should move this post to another area.

Thanks again to anyone still reading,

Pepe
 
Re: Ypedal,

Thanks a lot for the reply, I appreciate it. I have noticed that ian.mich is a member on these forums, however I have not seen anyone post a review after buying one of his kits. If this was reported in the forums, could you please give me a link? I would hate to disregard Ian and his kits as an option unfairly, especially due to the fact that I wouldn't have to worry about shipping costs/problems

Thanks again

John
 
well, short version, apparently, a disabled guy from ON gave Ian 2000$ + to work on a custom project, Ian took the money and has not delivered the goods, also is not responding to emails... however.. he is logging in on the forum regularly so he's present.

not cool.

I have PM'ed Ian this post, i expect him to reply shortly with an explanation... at least.
 
Thanks a lot, I'll definitely keep checking back.

If not this kit, then what are my other options? I'm in Ontario and would like to spend about 1300-1500 after all is said and done, including shipping and taxes. Can I find another kit with the specs I'm looking for in that price range? I have been considering the more powerful Crystalyte hub motors but am having trouble finding a reliable vendor in Canada (to avoid shipping costs) that doesn't have a huge mark-up on their price. Goldenmotor also seems very tempting, but their customer service and reliability seems to be lacking from what I've seen in the forums.
 
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.
 
Wesnewell: I'm in Ontario, Canada, near Toronto. I'll update my profile now, thanks for the heads up. I just realized I didn't give any indication of this other than saying that ian.mich is local to me.

Ypedal: I've been on ebikes.ca but (correct me if I'm wrong) their most powerful kits/batteries are not only expensive, but they don't seem to be enough to meet my needs. The Crystalyte 54xx and even the HS35 rear motors seem to be strong enough to handle my torque/speed needs, but the 54xx is not available through the online store and neither would give me the 60km+ range I want. Even paired with even their most powerful battery, according to their simulator, I would get ~20km range at ~40kmph (on my mountain bike with a 26" wheel and 220 lbs gross wt, using the Crystalyte motor with their 48v10ah LiMn battery). I'd prefer to sacrifice a bit in the way of top speed as opposed to sacrificing range. I have emailed them anyway with an outline of what I am looking for though, and I'll post here when I get a reply.

Perhaps I should consider buying the ebikes.ca motor kit and buy the battery elsewhere? I would prefer LiPo batteries anyway due to the lower startup cost/size and the higher energy density, but again am unsure of where to find a reliable dealer in Canada so that a dud/lost shipment doesn't waste weeks and hundreds of dollars. I'm confident I can deal with the safety issues as I have encountered them through my experiences with RC cars in the past, though I have admittedly never dealt with a pack of this size.

By the way, I read your 'rant' many times during my research, great stuff in there for people just starting out like me. Thanks again for your help, I'm sure hundreds of people like me appreciate it

Its past midnight here now so I've got to get some rest for work tomorrow, but I'll check back whenever I have the chance.

Goodnight, thanks everyone,

John
 
You need to do a lot of research. You can buy 1110wh of 20c lipo for $355from HK. Check out the mxus products here;
http://ebikemotor.en.alibaba.com/
I didn't see a motor rated fro 3000W. If yo find one let me know. BTW, I put up to 4000W into my 1000W motor and can run forever at 40kph without over heating.
For 60km range you'll need ~1100wh of battery at 40kph.
 
Hey all,

I noticed that after all of this, atypicalev.com has been shut down and he wont answer any calls, so that option is gone. Thanks for helping me dodge a potential bullet, I'm glad I asked before buying. I'm very sorry for the person who had trouble with Ian, I hope you can recoup from the loss or that it will still work out..Sounds like a rough situation :|

I'm probably going to take your advice wesnewell and buy the battery and kit seperately. I've noticed that most people here seem to like hobbyking batteries (that's HK, right?), so I'll probably order those. Is there any difference in terms of reliability if I order from the Global vs the USA store, or are they run by the same office?

So does anyone have any suggestions for a reliable hub motor that will be able to handle the 1100wh lipo battery running at 40kph? Would the Clyte HS35 from Ebikes.ca handle it? It's highest rated motor they have, but seems iffy to me. But, I'd prefer something from Canada to avoid hefty shipping and customs fees.

Thanks
 
pepe.w said:
Hey all,

I noticed that after all of this, atypicalev.com has been shut down and he wont answer any calls, so that option is gone. Thanks for helping me dodge a potential bullet, I'm glad I asked before buying. I'm very sorry for the person who had trouble with Ian, I hope you can recoup from the loss or that it will still work out..Sounds like a rough situation :|

I'm probably going to take your advice wesnewell and buy the battery and kit seperately. I've noticed that most people here seem to like hobbyking batteries (that's HK, right?), so I'll probably order those. Is there any difference in terms of reliability if I order from the Global vs the USA store, or are they run by the same office?

So does anyone have any suggestions for a reliable hub motor that will be able to handle the 1100wh lipo battery running at 40kph? Would the Clyte HS35 from Ebikes.ca handle it? It's highest rated motor they have, but seems iffy to me. But, I'd prefer something from Canada to avoid hefty shipping and customs fees.

Thanks

Size of battery has very little to do with what a motor can handle... Watts is the main factor, which is mostly (almost ebtirely) determined by your cintroller. The hs motor would do fine for long 40kmh runs. I commute with my ht3540 motor at 35-50kmh no probs.
 
Pretty much any 1000W will handle 40kph all day long without overheating.
Here's one option.
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/26-Inch-Rear-PRO-901-Conversion-Kit.html
 
True about the motor.

Given the longer use pattern, plus the you want to have your cake and eat it too, you will have some trouble finding just the right motor just anywhere. You want to go fairly fast, but still want to haul huge loads. Maybe I misunderstand, two panniers full of groceries is a load, but not like the loads I put on my longtail after going to the warehouse store.

Here's the deal, you will need to go a bit slower when hauling the loads, if it's up very steep hills. On the flat, any 1000w motor will do the trick, but once on a steep hill, if you are packing enough weight, then the faster type motors start to overheat.

Muxus motor will do it, the "3000w" muxus, is the 500-1000w motor overpowered. They will do it for a short ride. What you want, is more like 1500-2000w max through that motor. Cruising on the flat, at 40kph ish, you will only use about 600-800w. It will do that all day, as Wes pointed out.

Go here, to a very ES trusted vendor.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=36&product_id=54

Select the direct drive kit. ( it's a muxus I believe) Select the 305 rpm rear motor. If you will climb long steep hills, get the 275 rpm one but the slowest one will only go about 32 kph on "48v" battery. Select the 9 fet 30 amps controller. This controller will keep your amps down to a manageable level the motor can handle, yet give you lots of power when you need to get up a steep hill less than 2 miles long. Get the triangle battery bag added to the order, if you have a triangle space on your bike.

Run the bike at 48v, and you will have about the speed you want, but be better able to tackle hauling a trailer or loading two panniers with nothing but beer. If the bike is too slow at 48v, you can go as high as 72v with that controller. This will allow you to dial in your speed to your liking.

If you selected the slowest motor, you would still have 50 kph running a 72v battery. But 48v ish should do you for the 305 rpm motor.

Get a Cycleanalyst, or some other cheaper wattmeter. You have to have knowledge of how many amp hours you used, vs how many is there when you started. That's the first level of protection. Once you settle on a final cell count, you can look into adding a bms, and easier charging. Cheap low voltage alarms are great when you are getting started too, but they have problems that make them a pain to run permanently. They run on one or two cells, so the first two cells get more and more unbalanced every ride unless you balance every ride. Gets to be a pita.

On to the battery itself. Start with at least a cheap slow 50w RC charger. If nothing else, this will help you balance packs later on. Or get a very good RC charger. I would start out with just 2 or 4 6s 5000 mha lipo packs. This would get you an easy to manage 12s pack to do your first experiments with. This is about 44v, and if it's fast enough, stick with that. If too slow, then you could experiment with more, up to 20s (20 cells in series) which is 72v.

When you find the voltage you like best, Then you can buy larger quantities of whatever you like to use, and get a better charging and balancing set up designed around that specific cell count/voltage.

As to the range, 40 kph will take about 15 ah of 48v to go about 30k. 15 ah will carry easy, fitting in that bag I recommended. (15 ah of 14s lipo) That should be enough battery for most of your needs. Slowing to just 30kph will make that battery go close to 50k distance. I would recommend that when you want to go 60k, carry 48v 20 ah, and just slow to the speed it takes to make that kind of distance. Or stop and get a 5 ah recharge along the way.
 
Although I have not purchased from Golden Motor in Toronto (goldenmotor.ca) I have spoken with Gary many times.
He's had his business up and running for at least 2-3 years and really tries to help people.

Ebikes.ca, I have purchased from them, and they ship quick and Robbie is great in Tech Support/Sales. They sent me an
incorrect part and were willing to get the correct one out immediately if I agreed to just cover the shipping.

I myself sell LiFePO4 batteries. Not as light as the RC LiCo chemistry, but awesome nonetheless.
Check out my last two builds. One is a mountain bike using a 9C2810 (ebikes.ca sells the 9C motors for a good price) and I use
the C7225A controller (rock solid). They other build has been completed just last week. Electric Riding Lawn Mower! :)

Mountain bike build: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39480

and.......

I just completed my Electric Riding Lawn Mower! :) :) :) Grinning like crazy!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50784

Welcome to the Hobby! This is a great place and a great hobby!

Tommy L sends.....
mosh.gif
 
pepe.w said:
I would prefer LiPo batteries anyway due to the lower startup cost/size and the higher energy density, but again am unsure of where to find a reliable dealer in Canada so that a dud/lost shipment doesn't waste weeks and hundreds of dollars.
Even if you have a local dealer, you still have the likelihood of bad cells and other failures. It seems to be pretty common that after weeding out underperforming or outright defective/failed cells/packs, there's a significant (if low) percentage of stuff that just doesn't do what people need it to. As long as the local dealer will exchange those for you I guess it doesn't matter, but you still have to do the testing and weeding out. (if the dealer does that part then it's pretty likely the cost will be a lot higher as this takes significant time to do).


Then you have the cost of making your own "BMS", be that yourself with a multimeter, celllogs, a balancing charger, Method's LVC/HVC system, or something else, and the time you spend doing that. (though you don't have to do it, I'd highly recommend it, given the relatively high likelihood of dramatic failures if something goes amiss with typical cheap RC LiPo).

If like me your time is worth a lot less than your actual money, then it's probably a good enough choice--but if you have little time to deal with the potential issues and to periodically check up on the packs, it could be worth spending more money on a tested / warrantied pack from a known good dealer like ebikes.ca / Grin Tech.
 
Hey everyone,

Thanks a lot for all the help, I didn't expect such a big response. I appreciate the welcome and the advice, its encouraging to know that I wont be on my own researching and building my bike.

sn0wchyld/wesnewell: thanks for all your help before and for clearing up the misconceptions I had about the motor.

dogman: amazingly detailed and well planned, your idea sounds perfectly tailored for what I've been looking for and allows me to start small with room to grow. I think I'm probably going to go with pretty much exactly what you said, though I have to do a bit more research to be able to complete my order. I will start with the ~44v pack that you described to play it safe, I don't want my first ebike to go past around 40kph anyway. But I know that I'll probably want to upgrade it soon and would prefer to order the extra cells now. As you mentioned in one of your 'lipo noob builds', they're cheap enough that I would prefer to add them now as opposed to paying shipping for a second time. Should I also get an extra one on top of that to ensure I don't end up with a dud?

Tommy: I've checked out your build and it looks awesome, can't wait to see how mine measures up when it's done. I've thought long and hard about which type of battery to use and switched back and forth between lipo and lifepo4 too many times to count, but I think the weight factor really decided it for me. I pick up my bike several times a day to go up and down stairs, over obstacles, up steep dirt/grass hills and that sort of thing so I'd really prefer to keep things as light as possible

amberwolf: I think I'm going to take the time do do the research and do things myself. I'll save money and be more prepared when something goes wrong down the road. Plus I think it'll be more fun this way :D. I'm going to look into the inventory at hobbyking and post again when I have my order laid out.

Can't wait till I get this done! Thanks again everyone for the help
 
If 32kph is enough speed, get the slowest version of the direct drive that EM3ev has. You will get just about 30kph on 12s, 33kph or so on 14s. The slower motor climbs great. and if you get that controller that still can do 72v, you can always add more volts for more speed later.

But if you can get a good lifepo4 more locally, that would be easier to deal with, and safer than lipo. 48v lifepo4 is = to 14s lipo, About 56v working voltage fully charged.

But lipo gets you started cheap, with a small battery to begin with. It's not cheaper long run though, believe me. But it's more able to provide big amps than most lifepo4 packs.
 
I've been thinking about this a lot and I might have reconsidered. Considering this is my first build, maybe I shouldn't rush into lipo right from the start. I want to be on the road for this summer, and I think I want to do more research before taking on that responsibility. This is my plan, which works for me because I can avoid international orders and long wait times:

From http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_nc.php:

Clyte HS35 Rear Motor kit, with cycle analyst
+Upgrades and extras:
-25A controller for larger 40A 72V model (That way when I upgrade I wont need a new controller, I'll just dial it down before then to suit the battery I get)
-GRIN Universal Rear Torque Arm (should I get one or two?)
-7 Speed 11-32 tooth Freewheel
-Custom Freewheel Removal Tool (dunno if this is necessary)
-Upgrade to Half Grip Throttle with Regen Button (for the easy ebrake functionality)

As for the battery:
Tommy L said:
I myself sell LiFePO4 batteries. Not as light as the RC LiCo chemistry, but awesome nonetheless.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50784
I actually go to ottawa often because I have friends at the university there, could I meet up with you for a battery? Send me a pm if so and we can plan.

Edit*** Messed up the quote there :| lol

Thanks dogman for all your help, I'm going to keep this thread saved and use your advice when I decide to build my first lipo pack. As long as I can afford it, I think I'll go with a lifepo4 battery this time. When I'm ready, I'll make a new post with my outline and would gladly accept any troubleshooting you'd be willing to give.
 
pepe.w said:
Hey all,

I noticed that after all of this, atypicalev.com has been shut down and he wont answer any calls, so that option is gone. Thanks for helping me dodge a potential bullet, I'm glad I asked before buying. I'm very sorry for the person who had trouble with Ian, I hope you can recoup from the loss or that it will still work out..Sounds like a rough situation :|

I'm probably going to take your advice wesnewell and buy the battery and kit seperately. I've noticed that most people here seem to like hobbyking batteries (that's HK, right?), so I'll probably order those. Is there any difference in terms of reliability if I order from the Global vs the USA store, or are they run by the same office?

So does anyone have any suggestions for a reliable hub motor that will be able to handle the 1100wh lipo battery running at 40kph? Would the Clyte HS35 from Ebikes.ca handle it? It's highest rated motor they have, but seems iffy to me. But, I'd prefer something from Canada to avoid hefty shipping and customs fees.

Thanks

I experienced the same thing in the last several days with his site having gone to "non-existent", but guess what, i tried again today, and it's back online. I do not have enough technical know-how why this occurred, but his site is back up. [This remainder of this comment was edited from it's original form today to reflect most recent events as of 07.19.2013] = After an extended amount of time of not answering any of my communication in it's various forms (calls, texts, email etc), my large deposit was returned today by atypicalev, the motivating force was a visit from a higher power. As a result, today when receiving my deposit back, I was given the reason by the vendor that they believed what they ordered was 'incompatible' with my quad cycle design (which no mention of this was made of until they were visited by this higher power today), after which they apologized seemingly sincerely for the extended amount of time of not returning any of my communication (only after the higher power episode) for the vendor stated they work with 2 wheeled cycles and my particular 4 wheeled cycle's design was incompatible with the parts that were ordered, therefore they did not know how to tell me this which they wouldn't have known until today anyway when physically for the first time inspecting the quad cycle. Thus the parts that were ordered were only fully proven to be incompatible once the vendor inspected the quadcycle today according to their view.

The vendor is bright & technically intelligent on such matters in terms of 2 wheeled cycles and EV setups, but due to being young, lacks the work experience/interpersonal skills to deal with clients professionally/responsibly/punctually for the full gamut of the project in my experience. Hopefully this episode will be the impetus for the vendor to improve drastically their client services portion of their business, so this way, they don't seem to be a dodgy/fraudulent vendor in the long run and hopefully this will also help them see what is required in maintaining a good rapport/trust with clients so the client doesn't have to end up resorting to such actions in order to get a dispute resolved. Thus, they did not know how to deal with this particular situation by their own admission concerning what to do in the event that ordered parts were not compatible (which again, they wouldn't have known anyway until they inspected the quad cycle which only occurred today). Would have been great if they told me this before hand instead of leaving me in the dark for a while and having to resort to such methods in order to reach some form of resolution. Either way, he is a vendor just recently starting out, so i will state this, we all at one time or another in our life make mistakes based on lack of knowledge/experience on how to deal properly with certain issues of utmost importance. I believe this vendor has the potential to be quite a desirable vendor here with his very reasonable pricing scheme, once he gets all his ducks in a row and properly deals with clients properly and responsibly in a timely fashion. If you have BI-cycle and not a quadcycle, this is his forte. So the decision is left to the buyer to decide if they will give the vendor the business. I do believe (i may be wrong, time will tell) that after this incident, his resolve to provide good/responsible/satisfying service will be much more trust worthy and motivated. Both me and the vendor have reached an amicable resolution, and i'm much more pleased it concluded like this then any negative way.
 
Ypedal said:
well, short version, apparently, a disabled guy from ON gave Ian 2000$ + to work on a custom project, Ian took the money and has not delivered the goods, also is not responding to emails... however.. he is logging in on the forum regularly so he's present.

not cool.

I have PM'ed Ian this post, i expect him to reply shortly with an explanation... at least.

Isn't ian.mich a 17 year old kid?
 
Why do you want Lipo?

It certainly has its advantages, but takes a bit of research, care, and feeding (i.e. monitored and protected space for charging, can’t charge remotely (i.e. at work), need to be monitored to make sure they don’t get over/under charged.

LiFePo4 can give you 10C, and Li-ion 4C which should be plenty for most of us. The 30C capability of Lipo is more of a hazard than a help for most bikes.

Just curious
 
dogman said:
But lipo gets you started cheap, with a small battery to begin with. It's not cheaper long run though, believe me. But it's more able to provide big amps than most lifepo4 packs.

Why is it not cheaper in the long run?

In the short run the cost of a couple of packs plus a decent charger doesn't seem to be much different price wise than a starter li-ion pack with a charger.
 
triggeraa said:
Ypedal said:
well, short version, apparently, a disabled guy from ON gave Ian 2000$ + to work on a custom project, Ian took the money and has not delivered the goods, also is not responding to emails... however.. he is logging in on the forum regularly so he's present.

not cool.

I have PM'ed Ian this post, i expect him to reply shortly with an explanation... at least.

Isn't ian.mich a 17 year old kid?

He recently just turned 18.
 
I want a lipo battery because of the high power in a small package, I want to be able to go far and decently fast without adding an excessive amount of weight to my bike. But I realize that its not the safest route, which is why I'm going to try to avoid lipo for my first build. I'm planning to continue my research and upgrade when I'm ready.

I've sent TommyL an email so I can pick up a lifepo4 pack locally, but I haven't gotten a response yet so I'm still searching for now. The larger ones at GoldenMotor and emissionsfree would work but they're a bit out of my range, especially when you include shipping/tax/customs fees (though no customs at goldenmotor, just shipping and tax)
 
All batteries are fairly safe when handled properly. No battery is safe when mis-handled. ALL of them can catch fire and/or explode when mistreated.
 
Back
Top