Another Electrically Challanged Novice

[jerryt]

I'm ready for a hub conversion kit but I'm ignorant of electricity and e-bikes and not that familiar with the terminology. After a month of visiting various e-bike web sites, I'm still a little confounded and grateful for any advice.

Here are some of the factors:
1. I am an older male and weigh about 250 lbs.
2. I want a bike for exercise and pleasure riding in my Long Beach California neighborhood which is all paved and flat. I will rarely if ever encounter hills and dirt/gravel roads.
3. I’m retired and don't need to commute; I doubt I will venture more than 20 miles round trip.
4. I need to keep an eye on cost.
5. Speed-wise, I need to keep-up with 20 - 25 mph traffic if possible
6. I need to attach baskets (or pull a bike trailer) for grocery runs.
7. I have mechanical ability and tools
8. Simpler is better, reliability and longevity before speed

I just purchased a used Worksman bicycle (heavy duty, industrial grade, one speed) with 26â€￾ wheels.

Here is what I THINK I need but appreciate any helpful comments

• Front Hub Motor – I think I want a Crystalyte 408 Series (I’ve read the 500 series may be too much torque; other brands may not be as reliable; and Bionx is too costly)
• Batteries – NEED ADVICE
o Battery Type – I believe NiCAD if I can get them but don’t know where. Otherwise SLA because the other types are too pricey.
o Minimum - 36V but maybe 48V
o Amps – I understand higher is better NEED ADVICE

• Controller – NEED ADVICE
• Smart Charger – NEED ADVICE
• Twist throttle, Bike Rack, Pannier Bags, WHAT ELSE

I’m also open to suggestions where to buy. I’ve had some email contact with Justin and Zev @ ebike.ca sales but they seem to be in some sort of transition

Thank You

 

[CGameProgrammer]

A 408 is probably good. The 400-series is smaller and thus lighter than the X5, so if 25 mph is enough speed, there are few hills, and you plan to pedal, it's probably the best. You might want to consider the 406 though; pedaling is almost useless after the motor hits its maximum speed because its back-EMF will fight against you above that. So for pedaling I'd recommend a motor whose top speed is faster than you plan on going, so it'll always be contributing useful power.

Batteries: 20 miles is pushing it with lead-acid. I would avoid that and stick with NiMH or lithium, but since cost is a factor you're best off with NiMH. The problem with lead-acid, besides weight, is that it suffers from the sort of high discharge an e-bike would likely incur, which results in a 12AH lead-acid battery actually having less useful capacity than a 12AH nickel or lithium battery. 36V may be enough depending on which motor you choose.

Controller: Whichever Crystalyte controller is appropriate for your motor, amperage, and system voltage, duh!

For vendors, I have bought many things from ElectricRider.com and also some things from PoweRideStore.com. Both companies were very helpful, friendly, and informative. But ER only sells lead-acid batteries (lithium soon, but no nickel) and their motor/controller selection is more limited, so poweride may be a good choice.

 

[29a]

IMHO
The 400 series is more than ample for your needs.
and is easily put together.Which motor depends on your route, if you have a lot of stop and go a 408 will be quicker excelleration from stop but if long runs without stops a 406 will have a faster top speed. I would recommend Justin http://www.ebikes.ca/store/ for supplier as his prices are the lowest, but i don't know if import taxes apply.
I agree the Nicd seem the best choice for price and recharge cycles.If you run 48V at @ 8 Ah using Nicd 3C with a 20A controller you should get over 30 miles(I get that with this set up with hills using immediate start controller)
If you go for the 48V 20A controller do not get the large black box (the one with reverse key) as some have fets rated at 50V make sure the fets are rated over 56V which is what 48V Nicd are at full charge.
As you want a front wheel a torque arm is essential and will save you many headaches, better if you make your own.
More volts = faster top speed
More Amps = higer torque but reduces battery/bike range and you dont need this because your on the flat.
Get whichever charger is recommended with battery
Don't get the throttle with leds,it can short on full throttle
As for battery bag wait till everything is assembled as you may wish to move battery location for better weight distribution.

Did you look into motorizing your trailer instead to push you along
If you did this you could go with a much cheaper set up using SLA's and a cheaper motor.

hope this helped you dude

 

[xyster]

I would recommend Justin http://www.ebikes.ca/store/ for supplier as his prices are the lowest, but i don't know if import taxes apply.

Agreed. And he carries 8ah Nicad batteries that performed well in member's tests on the old forum.

But what's up with this....???

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/

"Update - Local Shipments Only -

From May 9th until the forseable near future, we will be restricting sales to local orders only. That will include direct pick up from our shop in Vancouver, or shipments to Victoria and the Gulf Islands. This step is necessary so that we can continue to provide the individual attention and product support that customers have grown to expect from us. We will follow through and ship parts to all those who have emailed us before this date, and especially those waited until May 5th to get a note in."

 

[fechter]

Considering the total vehicle weight when loaded, I wouldn't recommend a 406. A 408 would be a better match.

Lead acid batteries are the cheapest, but won't give as much range or last as long, plus they're very heavy. If you have a source for pull-outs from UPS units or something, you can sometimes score lead batteries for free or very cheap. You get what you pay for. I run used lead-acid batteries on my scooter.

The charger needs to match the batteries. Nimh chargers are quite different than lithium or SLA chargers,

 

[Drunkskunk]

408 is good, but may feel weak at slower speeds. with your weight and groceries, it may have a harder time. I would recomend going to a 409 to 4011, and running 60 to 72 volts.

As an example, my 4012 at 60V is capable of 21mph, and has more power at all speeds, and more efficancy than my 408 at 48V, which can do 22mph

With this weight range, you will want a 35A controller.

A rear hub motor makes manuvering the bike around easier, especialy when walking the bike up and down curbs.

 

[Lowell]

I would recommend Justin http://www.ebikes.ca/store/ for supplier as his prices are the lowest, but i don't know if import taxes apply.

Agreed. And he carries 8ah Nicad batteries that performed well in member's tests on the old forum.

But what's up with this....???

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/

"Update - Local Shipments Only -

From May 9th until the forseable near future, we will be restricting sales to local orders only. That will include direct pick up from our shop in Vancouver, or shipments to Victoria and the Gulf Islands. This step is necessary so that we can continue to provide the individual attention and product support that customers have grown to expect from us. We will follow through and ship parts to all those who have emailed us before this date, and especially those waited until May 5th to get a note in."

Some popular items are out of stock, and others are low stock
My 5304/20" project is waiting for a motor.

 

[jerryt]

Thanks for your recommendations. There is pretty much consensus so this is what I have decided based on your opinions:

• REAR (Was Front) HUB MOTOR – Crystalyte 408
• BATTERY – 48V NiCAD 8 Amps if available – Otherwise NiMH
• CONTROLLER – Whatever is recommended with battery.
29A said: If you go for the 48V 20A controller do not get the large black box (the one with reverse key) as some have fets rated at 50V make sure the fets are rated over 56V which is what 48V Nicd are at full charge.
• CHARGER – Whatever is recommended with battery.
• VENDOR – EBIKES.CA (If Available)
• THROTTLE – No LEDS
• BAGS – Wait for installation

Just a couple more things:

1. Is there another decision for the motor regarding if I pedal first?

2. Do you recommend the BrainDrain? Is there an alternative?

3. Drunkskunk suggested the controller was related to the weight range. Others suggested the battery volts/amps. I’m still confused.
• DRUNKSKUNK: With this weight range, you will want a 35A controller

4. Can a charger for a NiCAD battery be used for a NiMH battery? Same question for the controller.
• FECHTER said: The charger needs to match the batteries. Nimh chargers are quite different than lithium or SLA chargers

 

[Drunkskunk]

The more weight you have to haul, the more amps your motor is going to want to pull when taking off from a stop. Actualy, unless you're going for just efficancy, there isn't any real use for the 20A controller except as a way to limit the motor's output when accelerating


As for pedal VS. instant start, its almost 2 classes of vehicle. Pedal start is a boost, it only assists your pedaling, adding it's power to your own. It doesn't work if you don't pedal.

Instant start works like a motorcycle. turn the throttle and go, with your pedaling assisting the bike, if you chose to pedal.

 

[Ypedal]

Actually.. pedal first = You pedal to get rolling from a dead stop , 3 to 5 km/h.. then you can throttle away and stop pedaling if you want.

The throttle won't work from a dead stop, but works just like a regular " Instant start " once you get rolling.

 

[xyster]

Just a couple more things:

1. Is there another decision for the motor regarding if I pedal first?

2. Do you recommend the BrainDrain? Is there an alternative?

3. Drunkskunk suggested the controller was related to the weight range. Others suggested the battery volts/amps. I’m still confused.
• DRUNKSKUNK: With this weight range, you will want a 35A controller

4. Can a charger for a NiCAD battery be used for a NiMH battery? Same question for the controller.
• FECHTER said: The charger needs to match the batteries. Nimh chargers are quite different than lithium or SLA chargers

1) Definitely instant-start for the controller. You can always pedal-start the instant-start if you want to. But if you buy the pedal-first, then you can never start off without pedaling first. Same motor works with either type of controller.

2) Drainbrain would be my first choice. I saved some bucks and wired up an analog voltmeter, ammeter, and a cheap schwinn digital speedo/odo.

3)I think Mr. Skunk is referring to power needed to get a heavier bike rolling. I'd definitely go with the 35 amp or 40 amp controller, 72 volt model if possible so you have headroom to add voltage later if you want to.

4) Nicad-specific chargers will not terminate the charge of NiMH batteries properly. However, NiMH chargers charge Nicad batteries just fine. These days, most nickel-battery (nicad/nimh) chargers are NiMH chargers since they charge either. I've never seen a pure Nicad charger stocked at any ebike shop. Do not use a charger for SLA (lead-acid) or lithium batteries on Nicad/NiMH!!!

 

[jerryt]

Looks like I'm good to go. Thanks for the ride.

 

[jerryt]

Looks like I'm good to go. Thanks for the ride.

 

[patrick_mahoney]

I have a question that I've wanted to ask for a while - and this might not be the right thread but I thought that I'd ask anyway: why doesn't anyone ever recommend the Wilderness Energy kits?

http://www.wildernessenergy.com/

The Wilderness Energy BL-36 and BD-36 kits come with everything - all together - for a pretty good price. At 600W, they seem pretty comparable to a Crystalyte 408 to me.

I've owned both a WE BL-36 kit and a Crystalyte x5 kit and I thought the BL-36 was pretty good - not quite as fast as I wanted to go (about 18mph at 36V, about 24mph at 48V). But the quality of the motor and the controller were good. The thing went together easily. The motor has good torque too - The BL-36 at 36V accelerates faster than my x5304 at 36V.

They seem like great kits for someone who is new - they come with everything you need (charger, motor, batteries, canvas bag, etc.), it all works together, the quality is pretty good, they come with good documentation, great phone support and the price is pretty good. But I never hear anyone mention them... why?

 

[Lowell]

Could be the large percentage of DIY'ers here that would rather assemble their own drivetrain.

 

[mvadventure]

Could be Lowell is absolutely correct, could also be the core group here is technically savvy, understands FET (whatever that is) spoke gauges, voltage into a controller, drain brains and watts up, etc.

But, there are a few of us that know diddley squat and maybe even less and peruse these forums in the hope of gaining a little knowledge and simply to know there are other electric bike folks out there. In my case, only for an example, I bought a Phoenix Cruiser Kit complete with EVERYTHING including a rack, bags, cruise control, etc. I've learned to dump the rack and get rear side baskets, get a watts us (hasn't arrived yet) and to change my tires to slicks and am learning more every day.

Just as soon as I find, for sure, the right batteries I'll probably dump my four
SLA's and get something that will give me much better range. I really don't care too much about the dollars, I want the quality without being wasteful about it. Without a kit I'm not sure I would have gone the way I did and so far I'm very happy with the kit and the performance.
Mike

 

[CGameProgrammer]

I'm guessing you got it from electricrider? They're releasing a 48V 25Ah lithium battery pack supposedly in June. It's $1500, though I think there's a discount if you give them back the SLA charger, but the price appears to be competitive. Lithium is just that expensive. Also that price includes the charger.

I mention it because it looks nice and neat and will already have the correct connectors.

 

[Rassy]

JerryT, you sound about where I was last fall. I had motorized a $53 WalMart bike using an Old scooter, but ruined the motor on my steep hill. In searching for a replacement motor I found out about Hub Motors and ended up with a WE BD36. Still not enough power for my hill, so I built a trailer (like 29A suggested here) with two 26" BD36 Hub Motors. The difference was amazing, the non-pedal acceleration and hill climbing ability improved dramatically. The best part was I had room for groceries and packages in (or on) the trailer and the bike felt like a non-electric in terms of balance and general feel. I was suprised that I couldn't even tell the trailer was there except for the power when I hit the throttle. The top speed remained the same at about 25 MPH. It would still be my ride except I fell in love with a recumbent trike a few months ago, and the rest is history.

 

[jerryt]

Although I've seen them on-line, I never considered a trailer until now. Guess I'll check a little further. So Rassy, did you build your trailer? and do you have any pictures?

 

[Liberator]

I'm guessing you got it from electricrider? They're releasing a 48V 25Ah lithium battery pack supposedly in June. It's $1500, though I think there's a discount if you give them back the SLA charger, but the price appears to be competitive. Lithium is just that expensive. Also that price includes the charger.

I mention it because it looks nice and neat and will already have the correct connectors.

Ya know, I was seriously considering this pack but I didn't want to blow $1500 on what seems to be an untested pack (at least not tested by anyone here as far as I know).

 

[CGameProgrammer]

Ya know, I was seriously considering this pack but I didn't want to blow $1500 on what seems to be an untested pack (at least not tested by anyone here as far as I know).

Well I think they've tested it thoroughly and they know what they're doing; they refuse to sell the 72V controller for instance since their testing showed its unreliability. But I do plan on buying the lithium pack and reserved one a little while ago, so perhaps sometime in June it'll arrive. Right now I'm moving forward with plans to get 72V 12Ah lead-acids going, but I'll run the 48V 25Ah lithium when I need range over speed. I asked ER and they said there'd be no problem with running multiple Eons in series, which I may do much later on, but the BMS cannot support anything in parallel. 25Ah is good though.

 

[Rassy]

I have a post that you can find on Page 2 of this forum (E-Bike General Discussion) called "Recumbent Trike with three hub motors", last updated April 19. If you get serious about doing a trailer let me know. I made a few mistakes, and I will be thinking about what I would do different after reading so much on these great forums.

 

[jerryt]

Rassy thats a beautiful trailer and I would sure like to examine those pictures closeup if you wouldn't mind sending them to my email. I may just go this way but after seeing yours I'll be embarassed to show my craftsmanship. I appreciate the offer of advice if I do build one.
Did I understand you used this on your 2 wheeler before the bent? If so, did you experience any problems ? I did just a little research today and somewhere somebody wrote that a one wheel trailer can lean into the turns like a bike does but a two wheeler could lift a wheel in sharp turns.

Regards,
Jerry

edit: PM'd email address