Battery advice for a novice first bike build

[ronaldvidnphoto]

Hello all,

I finally decided to start the process of building an e-bike; it's been something I've considered for a long time. I decided to go the folding bike route as I live in a small NYC apartment and I really can't have two full-size bikes. I decided on the BBS02 for the motor and now I am onto the battery and this is proving to be a bigger hassle than I thought. I posted originally on Reddit but didn't get much response, though, it did help to push me away from the cheaper options I was looking at originally.

Here are the options I widdled down to:
UPP 48V 17.5Ah Hailong-3 Samsung 35E $375 840wh
UPP 52V 17.5Ah New Hailong Samsung 35E $399 910wh
EM3ev 48V (13S4P) 13.6ah Super Shark $379 653wh
BMW 52V **8ah** Samsung 40T $310 416wh

I'm leaning most towards the 52v from UPP; I reached out to see if I would be able to get the Bluetooth BMS version after reading something on this forum about some of their packs not balancing when charging and I'm waiting to hear back. I'm really looking to get input on my picks and maybe options I don't have that you may think are better. I really have base-level knowledge of this stuff, there's no way I could go the self-built route and $400 is really the max budget for the battery.

Also, what would be a good charger to get? Additionally, I want to keep this as safe as possible, do you have any other charging safety tips? Charging/leaving this battery out of my apartment isn't a possibility. I've read a bit about and even saw it mentioned in the BMS link, using ammo boxes for charging as one thing.

About the bikes use:
Commuting during good weather and general rides around the city. I'm a photographer, so my commute isn't a set distance/frequency. Regardless, I don't see most days going over the 20-mile distance.

Thank you for reading and any input you can pass my way.

 

[goatman]

if I was worried about my battery while charging, id get an ammo-box and a catapult. you might need to do some testing to make sure the flaming battery lands in a safe place like the Hudson

 

[999zip999]

I read upp but hard to trust. Em3ev 52v 13.5ah or bigger. Quality is good peace of mind.

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

if I was worried about my battery while charging, id get an ammo-box and a catapult. you might need to do some testing to make sure the flaming battery lands in a safe place like the Hudson

Yes I suppose that would be ideal.. I'm not worried about it blowing up, I'm just looking for input to see what others do. You can never be to safe, right?

 

[goatman]

youre picking good brand name cells, im not sure why youre looking at 2p of 40t is 7.6ah. how many amps is the controller? not enough p/ah need 3p/12ah. if you go 3p and only use 15amps your better off with 50e or lg m50.
if youre running 750 watts and dead battery is 42v, call it 20amps.
5p of 35e is 4amp max
4p of 35e is 5amp max

2p of any 21700 at 20amp cell wont last say 250?cycles but 3p you should get more than 750cycles.
2p would be 10amp max/series
3p would be 7amp max/series

do you know what watts/amps you plan to run?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL2TT3darhY

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

I read upp but hard to trust. Em3ev 52v 13.5ah or bigger. Quality is good peace of mind.

Yes, the added quality assurance is why I decided to look for packs with branded cells.. What do you think are the main points keeping Em3ev ahead of UPP packs? I definitely understand there are differences present, but I don't have the technical knowledge to really understand how different points weigh out. The Em3ev 52v 13.5ah pack is great at $399 but gets more questionable when I look at shipping being $85.

 

[goatman]

heres 35e cycled 500x at 2.5 amps
so 4p would be restricted to 10amps to get those results if you run 20amps will you get 250 cycles out of those packs? depends on the type of rider you are
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=103092&p=1550223&hilit=35e+cycle#p1550223

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

heres 35e cycled 500x at 2.5 amps
so 4p would be restricted to 10amps to get those results if you run 20amps will you get 250 cycles out of those packs? depends on the type of rider you are
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=103092&p=1550223&hilit=35e+cycle#p1550223

Thank you for taking the time to find and send this. I'd like to think I'm more a conservative rider, but I've never had the aid of a battery to help me when I was on a bike. With saying that, I'm reminded that the bike build is based on 20" tires, I don't see myself breaking form and getting to acceleration happy if that is what you are alluding to.

This is the information attached to the motor listing pertaining to electrical:
Power:750W
Voltage:48V
Controller Current: 25A
Display Working Temperature:-20-80C
It's built in 25 amp upgraded IRFB3077 mosfets controller.

Edit to add: I haven't decided on a charger yet; I'm still open to your ideal suggestion for charging haha. I'm assuming a slow charge would aid the battery life?

Edit 2: Also, thank you for illustrating the amp breakdown for the one smaller battery. It's out. That company has a few other sizes but they are still loose bricks ( thought I would prefer those at first). I'd rather find a full structure solution like the other packs I listed.

 

[goatman]

25amp controller divide by p. 5p is 5 amps/p . 4p is 6amps you might be better off finding a 4p pack made of lg hg2 or Samsung 30q. most of the chargers that come with those packs are 2amp but you could easily use 5to 10 amp chargers for the 30q and hg2 at 4p. for example a 30q can be cycled 750x at 7amp discharge and 2.5amp charge but instead of getting a freewheel make it a fixie and you can charge the battery by coasting backward down the hills, you get more range that way.

 

[Rassy]

I don't understand why a novice would be advised to work with volatile chemistries, particularly if living in an apartment. I do understand they are lighter and have higher c rates and are initially less expensive, but that doesn't make them a good choice for many of us. At some point something will go wrong, either the person's fault or a charger or BMS malfunction, etc.

A good LiFePO4 battery, such as those Ping manufactures, do cost more initially, but they also last longer, which evens out the actual cost. They also perform better because they have a very flat discharge curve during their usage. They do not burst into flames when over discharged or over charged or physically damaged. I would have trouble sleeping at night if any of my friends or relatives that I have helped set up e-bikes for were using other li-ion options. Just my two cents.

 

[999zip999]

Yes lghg2 or the Samsung 30q not the 35e 4p. At lease. Ping is a good battery to begin with if it fits .The Ping battery is bigger heavier . Get the 5 amp charger. I too don't like all the 18650 connections for a pack. And half cycle life. it's all a compromise just don't go too cheap there's a whole whole lot of crap out there on eBay and.
How big of a space do you have for your battery

 

[goatman]

I don't know where you live but the luna wolf v2 52v Samsung 30q is it a little more but?
https://lunacycle.com/luna-wolf-v2-52v-battery-pack/

heres a thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=100312&start=25

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

25amp controller divide by p. 5p is 5 amps/p . 4p is 6amps you might be better off finding a 4p pack made of lg hg2 or Samsung 30q. most of the chargers that come with those packs are 2amp but you could easily use 5to 10 amp chargers for the 30q and hg2 at 4p. for example a 30q can be cycled 750x at 7amp discharge and 2.5amp charge but instead of getting a freewheel make it a fixie and you can charge the battery by coasting backward down the hills, you get more range that way.

Your post successfully sent me back down the rabbit hole haha. I was able to find this battery from one of the previous listings $399 52v15ah Samsung 30Q 18650.

The 30Q looks good in terms of life cycles, but 35E has a higher capacity. Since the demand for current should be low, cell stress shouldn't be much of a factor; I think the higher capacity 35E might work out better in the grand price/performance (capacity) scheme. A 30q pack would be about ~$70-$150 more when I factor in the extra costs associated with different vendors. Using the ~300 cycle half-life, both should be operating at ~80%. After this point, the factors of decay sway more in favor of the 30q, but I'd presume I'm well into year 3 by this point.

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

I don't understand why a novice would be advised to work with volatile chemistries, particularly if living in an apartment. I do understand they are lighter and have higher c rates and are initially less expensive, but that doesn't make them a good choice for many of us. At some point something will go wrong, either the person's fault or a charger or BMS malfunction, etc.

A good LiFePO4 battery, such as those Ping manufactures, do cost more initially, but they also last longer, which evens out the actual cost. They also perform better because they have a very flat discharge curve during their usage. They do not burst into flames when over discharged or over charged or physically damaged. I would have trouble sleeping at night if any of my friends or relatives that I have helped set up e-bikes for were using other li-ion options. Just my two cents.

Thanks for the input, I'll look into these more. The anti flame bursting is very appealing haha

 

[999zip999]

The Samsung 30q is a 15amp cell. The Samsung 35e is a 8amp cell. That doesn't mean you use the cell at 8 amps.

 

[goatman]

I wouldn't be running a 35e but that's me. try and pull amps from a 35e it will volt sag and ah capacity disappears, resistance goes up, lifecycle goes down. ME I would the kill the 35e in about 100 cycles, I don't pedal and im full throttle but if you like to pedal and just need a little assistance like 500 watts max 4p of 35e is probably ok. too bad that seller doesn't ship to Canada or I would be probably be buying. I like 30q because I run my batteries at 5 to 10 amps you at 4p is 6 amps or less so id probably run the HG2

 

[999zip999]

Not a fan of Samsung 35e

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

I wouldn't be running a 35e but that's me. try and pull amps from a 35e it will volt sag and ah capacity disappears, resistance goes up, lifecycle goes down. ME I would the kill the 35e in about 100 cycles, I don't pedal and im full throttle but if you like to pedal and just need a little assistance like 500 watts max 4p of 35e is probably ok. too bad that seller doesn't ship to Canada or I would be probably be buying. I like 30q because I run my batteries at 5 to 10 amps you at 4p is 6 amps or less so id probably run the HG2

Thanks for all the input. I decided to give that battery a go. I figure it's better to have more than I need than just enough.. Now I have to work on a charger and bike mount solution if you have any input on a brand.

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

The Samsung 30q is a 15amp cell. The Samsung 35e is a 8amp cell. That doesn't mean you use the cell at 8 amps.

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, I ended up going with the 30q. If there is a particular charger you like please share. Also, I'm looking for input on mounting bags if you have one that comes to mind. Particularly for the top bar or rack mount.

 

[goatman]

I wouldn't be running a 35e but that's me. try and pull amps from a 35e it will volt sag and ah capacity disappears, resistance goes up, lifecycle goes down. ME I would the kill the 35e in about 100 cycles, I don't pedal and im full throttle but if you like to pedal and just need a little assistance like 500 watts max 4p of 35e is probably ok. too bad that seller doesn't ship to Canada or I would be probably be buying. I like 30q because I run my batteries at 5 to 10 amps you at 4p is 6 amps or less so id probably run the HG2

Thanks for all the input. I decided to give that battery a go. I figure it's better to have more than I need than just enough.. Now I have to work on a charger and bike mount solution if you have any input on a brand.

unless you buy a satiator from grin technologies $$$$ then buy 2 Chinese chargers a 2amp for a nice slow charge and a 5amp if you can find one or a 3 amp. cheap chargers die so its nice to have a back-up charger ready to go. if your going to get an ammo box for charging just use the ammo box on a rear rack or wherever it can fit.
heres a video on 30q,hg2 and sony, little crash course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3iojgT8j2Q

 

[999zip999]

How about a pic of your bike or I link we can better advise you about a battery.you would buy the charger for the same place that sells the battery plug & play.

 

[ronaldvidnphoto]

How about a pic of your bike or I link we can better advise you about a battery.you would buy the charger for the same place that sells the battery plug & play.

This is the bike: https://www.origamibicycles.com/product/gazelle/
I'm thinking a rack mount solution might work best, not unless there is a simple solution to utilize the bottle mounts.

 

[999zip999]

Yes the rear rack looks the easiest with your mid Drive. Just remember to always lock it up. Just measure before you buy or get a cardboard box cut it up and make it the size of the battery to see how well it fits for you.

 

[goatman]

id put the fattest tire I could within reason on the rear, soften the ride and save your spine. I just purchased https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/Schwinn-Knobby-Bike-Tire-with-Kevlar-Black-20-x-2-12-Inch/PRD45FH6K2AAYW7
and maybe a suspension seat post