Battery cell pouch

Milou

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Nov 1, 2012
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Location
Scottsdale, AZ - USA
I need some information regarding the locating a vendor for one battery cell from my pack.

ZQPT 11140165
3.2v 15Ah
NT20100601-3784

See attached images. I tried to Google the info from the battery without luck. And the company ZQPT does not seem to sell this particular type.

1. Where do I get one?
2. Does it have to be the exact same (obviously 3.2V 15Ah)?
3. Should I keep the other good cells in charge?

Thanks. Regards JJ
 

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Milou said:
I need some information regarding the locating a vendor for one battery cell from my pack.

ZQPT 11140165
3.2v 15Ah
NT20100601-3784

See attached images. I tried to Google the info from the battery without luck. And the company ZQPT does not seem to sell this particular type.

1. Where do I get one?
2. Does it have to be the exact same (obviously 3.2V 15Ah)?
3. Should I keep the other good cells in charge?

Thanks. Regards JJ

I have no idea about your cell or how to locate that zqpt company. It might not even exist anymore.

So let's talk about 2) and 3) to stop further losses.

3) Yes, you should keep all the good cells in charge. But since you will not be using them, they should be kept at storage voltage. 50 to 70% SOC.
2) I hope that you will be able to find an identical replacement cell. But if you cannot, then there are 2 other options:
2a) Remove and discard the bad cell. Reconfigure your pack so that you would end up with a functional pack with one less cell. For example: If you have ten cells now, your battery is a 32V, 15Ah pack. After removing the bad cell and reconfiguring the pack you would have a 28.8V, 15Ah pack.
2b) Replace the bad cell with another brand cell, 3.2V nominal of course. The new cell must be equal or better in capacity AND discharge rate. You would be wasting a percentage of the new cell but it won't negatively affect the remaining cells.

There might be other options that I am not aware of. Good luck.

Edit to add: 2a) may or may not work depending on your BMS. Most (I think) BMSs support more than one configuration. Ex: 8, 9 or 10 cells. Some don't (I think again).
 
Assuming this is lifepo4, one option would be to buy three 5 ah lifepo4 cells made by anybody. Connect them in paralell, to create a 15 ah cell to replace your missing cell.

Far from ideal, but better than running one cell less I'd think.

Look for a 15 ah lifepo4 cell from any manufacturer as well. Chances are you have 2c cell, so somebody must still have a cell similar enough.
 
SamTexas said:
I have no idea about your cell or how to locate that zqpt company. It might not even exist anymore.

So let's talk about 2) and 3) to stop further losses.

3) Yes, you should keep all the good cells in charge. But since you will not be using them, they should be kept at storage voltage. 50 to 70% SOC.
2) I hope that you will be able to find an identical replacement cell. But if you cannot, then there are 2 other options:
2a) Remove and discard the bad cell. Reconfigure your pack so that you would end up with a functional pack with one less cell. For example: If you have ten cells now, your battery is a 32V, 15Ah pack. After removing the bad cell and reconfiguring the pack you would have a 28.8V, 15Ah pack.
2b) Replace the bad cell with another brand cell, 3.2V nominal of course. The new cell must be equal or better in capacity AND discharge rate. You would be wasting a percentage of the new cell but it won't negatively affect the remaining cells.

There might be other options that I am not aware of. Good luck.

Edit to add: 2a) may or may not work depending on your BMS. Most (I think) BMSs support more than one configuration. Ex: 8, 9 or 10 cells. Some don't (I think again).

Thanks a lot for the help. I kind-of-though one unknown battery cell would be a problem. My pack is 15 cells. If I cut out one cell it would make this 44.8V 15Ah = 672W. Presently, the scooter is rated at 48V 15Ah 500W hub motor:

1. Besides the BMS function with lower cell numbers, I take it the scooter would work OK???


dogman said:
Assuming this is lifepo4, one option would be to buy three 5 ah lifepo4 cells made by anybody. Connect them in paralell, to create a 15 ah cell to replace your missing cell.

Far from ideal, but better than running one cell less I'd think.

Look for a 15 ah lifepo4 cell from any manufacturer as well. Chances are you have 2c cell, so somebody must still have a cell similar enough.

I would not mind modifying the battery cells with other types and making cell series out other options. But, would rather go another route:

I got this brand new non working motorcycle scooter (Serengeti Panther) for free. The main problem is obtaining parts from a Chinese company that does not follow up with support and detail information about their products.

In any case, Since I have this free scooter, I have disassembled it completely apart. I am willing to spend a certain amount of sum to update it using reliable sources with an assembly that will make it run up small hills (common around my area). Presently, the scooter is rated at 48V 15Ah 500W hub motor. I do not believe this is a good setup for the hills that I will be using? I am fine with 30MPH but would like to maintain that speed up the short hills (give-and-take 300 yds long, 20% climb). After having read all kind of data about batteries, BMS, controllers and all their values/faults I am skeptical of a good match.
 
Thanks a lot for the help. I kind-of-though one unknown battery cell would be a problem. My pack is 15 cells. If I cut out one cell it would make this 44.8V 15Ah = 672W. Presently, the scooter is rated at 48V 15Ah 500W hub motor:

What or who uses 15 cell LiFePo pack for. It all seems to be 12 or 16 LiFe cells. 16 to make a so called 48v. So where is the missing cell?

Does it have a BMS? If so why 15? Might be a bumb question, but why 15? 15s Lipo or 8 to 24s and more on LiPo 8, 12 16 and 20 on LiFePo.

I'm so confused.

Dan :?
 
dnmun said:
the BMS will not work when it is short a cell. did you ever try to charge the cell up to see if it will hold a charge?

Yes, I did. out of the 15 cells all were good at 3.6V except one at 0.08V. After charging the pack for several days nothing doing. The pack stayed at 32V instead of 48V. This is why I took it apart to change the bad cell.

DAND214 said:
What or who uses 15 cell LiFePo pack for. It all seems to be 12 or 16 LiFe cells. 16 to make a so called 48v. So where is the missing cell?

Does it have a BMS? If so why 15? Might be a bumb question, but why 15? 15s Lipo or 8 to 24s and more on LiPo 8, 12 16 and 20 on LiFePo.

I'm so confused.

Dan :?

If you are confused I am dumbfounded. I know little about battery packs but though a negative number of cells to be strange. Except for the math 3.2V x 15 cells does equal 48V. It does seem to have some sort of BMS (sealed) gizmo (see image) but without any detail information. Everything is a mystery. Given the source of this scooter (China) I have no doubt they do what they want to put it into our market. I assume they are not LiFePo but some Lithium of their own design!!! Seems my only option is to start with all new?
 

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Milou said:
If you are confused I am dumbfounded. I know little about battery packs but though a negative number of cells to be strange. Except for the math 3.2V x 15 cells does equal 48V.
Don't be confused or dumbfounded. There is nothing wrong with a 15 cells, 48V battery. There is no standard dictating the required number of cells for a pack. As you stated above, the math works so it's fine.

Milou said:
It does seem to have some sort of BMS (sealed) gizmo (see image) but without any detail information.
Since the BMS is SEALED, you might not be able to reconfigure it to work with 14 cells (one less). The BMS could be damaged when you try to UNseal it. So let's just forget solution 2a) for now.

2b) is your best bet now: Replace the bad cell with a cell from another brand. It will be fine as long as the new cell has the same voltage. The capacity and discharge rate must be the same or higher than the old cell (nothing news here, just repeating myself).
 
Have you ever rode the bike ? Meaning is it worth a new battery ? And or what size is the cell ? And do you have a way of charging that single cell ?
 
999zip999 said:
Have you ever rode the bike ? Meaning is it worth a new battery ? And or what size is the cell ? And do you have a way of charging that single cell ?

I never did ride it. But, I was told it ran once (20 meters) and stopped going up a driveway. It then never worked again. The person who owned it could not get satisfaction from any of the manufacture/dealer. The person gave up and asked me if I wanted it.

The measurement size of each cell:

5 1/2" (13mm) W x 6" (15mm) H x 1/4" (0.5mm) D

I presently do not have a way of charging individual cell.

I thank all of you guys for the help. The present situation with my motorbike scooter setup is getting clearly beyond my knowledge and tooling to get it working as the original underpowered buzz-machine.
 
you can charge up the individual cell by using a small cell phone charger. they put out 5V so you have to monitor the voltage.

you can use the ammeter scale on your voltmeter and charge the cell up through the ammeter and keep track of how many amp hours it takes to charge it up.

record the amp reading every hour or so and then you have an average current over time and keep track of the voltage until it charges up to 3.65V.

that should take 15Ah to fill since it is discharged now.

it may be ok so that would get the scooter working.
 
dnmun said:
you can charge up the individual cell by using a small cell phone charger. they put out 5V so you have to monitor the voltage.

you can use the ammeter scale on your voltmeter and charge the cell up through the ammeter and keep track of how many amp hours it takes to charge it up.

record the amp reading every hour or so and then you have an average current over time and keep track of the voltage until it charges up to 3.65V.

that should take 15Ah to fill since it is discharged now.

it may be ok so that would get the scooter working.

Good instructions. I will try it in a few days. Do I need to unsolder it by itself or can I charge the individual cell while still soldered with the others?
 
you can find the cell phone chargers at the goodwill or geek shops used for cheap. i dig them outa the dumpsters so i have a pile.

you will need a voltmeter if you don't have one already. to verify the polarity of the wires from the cell phone charger. they call them 'adapters' too.

buy some alligator clips and solder them on to the ends of the wire coming from the charger. it will usually be a pair of wires, tiny and running together or it can be one wire inside of a sleeve braided around the central core. the braided part is almost always, i would say always, the ground or negative. undo the braid enuff to make sure the two wires are separated a lot so you have enuff wire to use. you need to be able to attach the alligator clips some distance from each other so you need enuff slack.

harbor freight sells the alligator clips and you can buy short jumper wires with alligator clips on the ends too for doing stuff like this. look at what they have, but you need the alligator clips on the ends of the wires so you can clip the wires from the charger directly to the terminals of the cell. harbor freight sells the cheap voltmeters too, i just bot 3 more for $2.99 each to replace some of those i have blown up recently.

you don't have to disconnect the cell from the others, just put the positive lead of the charger on the positive terminal of the cell and the negative lead of the charger on the negative electrode terminal. this is why you have to use alligator clips.

the best way to measure the charging current is to use the ammeter function on the DVM, digital voltmeter, and by allowing the charging current to flow through the ammeter, you can measure how much current is flowing into the cell as you charge it up.

this is a 15Ah cell so you would wanna use the 10A scale and plug the black voltmeter lead into the spot that says 10A, not the regular spot that says ground or negative, the black one. the normal ammeter range is too small for the current from the charger so you need to use the 10A scale (look at your meter and it will be more clear).

the charger will push about 500mA or 1/2A. so it will take 30 hours at 500mA to charge up the 15Ah cell to 3.65V. if you don't see the voltage climb up to that level in the 30 hours time it takes to push the 15Ah then there is definitely something wrong with the cell. if it fails to charge up to 3.65V in that time you can assume it has real problems, but until you charge it there is no way to know anything.

CAUTION! you need to remember that if you use the same voltmeter to measure the current, and then wanna use the same one to measure the voltage, you have to unplug the black lead from the 10A spot and put it in the regular spot and reset the scale to DC volts. this is really important to remember because this is how voltmeters die, it happens all the time and since you are new, you have to be double careful to not test for voltage while it is set up to measure current. remember to double check. i have 5 dead voltmeters on my table now so i know it happens. which is why i emphasize it.

but you can use the ammeter scale to see how much current is flowing and it should remain flat for the entire time so you don't have to leave it in the circuit all the time, just until you have good current value. write it down and use it to estimate how long you need to charge because you don't wanna charge too long and allow the voltage to climb over 4V. this is critical. over 4V is really bad for lifepo4. watch the voltage like a hawk when it climbs up to 3.5-3.6V because it goes up fast above that level.

so find a cell phone charger, tease the wires apart, solder on some alligator clips, start charging through the ammeter, keep track of the time, and then keep measuring the voltage as you get closer to full charge and stop it when it get to 3.65V or just a little bit above. when you can get to that point, then just disconnect everything and measure the voltage on the cell to see where the voltage finally drops to over time up to several days.

if it stays close to 3.4-3.5V that would be great. if it drops below 3.3V then it is not good but we can still measure the capacity of the cell to see how functional it still is. we can explain how to do that later once you figure out how to charge up this one cell.

this is actually something that everyone has to do at one time or another so it would be good for you to have this kinda stuff or tools available all the time to use if you wanna maintain your electric scooter.
 
Thanks a million for the great instructions on charging individual cells. I am capable of doing as instructed. If you ever give courses on battery let me know. You guys are the perfect instructors. You should write a book “Batteries for Dummies, How to Get all Charged Up”!!!

I made one more check on the battery before charging anything. I am including a PDF of my battery pack setup for your reference. I need your inputs.

The result:

Pins Volts
1 - 2 1.8
2 - 3 4.0
3 - 4 4.0
4 - 5 4.0
5 - 6 4.0
6 - 7 4.0
7 - 8 3.8
8 - 9 3.6
9 - 10 4.0
10 - 11 4.0
11 - 12 4.0
12 - 13 3.6
13 - 14 3.6
14 - 15 3.6


Total 52

I get a total of 52 Volts yet, when I check it after the BMS (Red to Black or yellow) I only get 25Volts. What gives??? I assume the BMS is at fault?

In addition, I am not getting any volt reading from the 15th cell positive to negative. Why would I not get any reading?
I am also surprised to see 4.0 Volts. Perhaps my multimeter is not calibrated (it is an analog).

I am no longer sure if the first cell needs any help? It seems to have upped its voltage from 0.8 Volts several weeks ago to 1.8 Volts recently. I think it was put on charge once in between. The pack is kept in a 70 degree dry space.
I am ready to charge individual cells per the fantastic instruction given to me. Thanks again to all. Regards JJ
 

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you are counting backwards. the bottom cell, the one which is closest to the black wire to the battery is #1 and the top cell which has the sense wire running to the top where the red wire comes off for the controller B+, is #16.

your voltmeter should tell you that. the top of the cell is positive, not negative, and count from the bottom.

it would be better if you just posted up the picture of your BMS so we can count the number of channels. it would be unusual for you to have 15 cells but it seems that way from trying to count the number in that picture.
 
dnmun said:
you are counting backwards. the bottom cell, the one which is closest to the black wire to the battery is #1 and the top cell which has the sense wire running to the top where the red wire comes off for the controller B+, is #16.

your voltmeter should tell you that. the top of the cell is positive, not negative, and count from the bottom.

it would be better if you just posted up the picture of your BMS so we can count the number of channels. it would be unusual for you to have 15 cells but it seems that way from trying to count the number in that picture.

Hi: Not sure what you are saying but, my multimeter operates in the correct direction (Analog) when I put the meter red probe to the #1 (black sensor wire) and meter black probe to #1 (white sensor wire). I can swear I only have 15 cells???

I have included the images requested for the review. Regards JJ
 

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Milou, if your charger (the one that comes with your battery) is still connected you need to disconnect it now. Most of the cells in your battery are ALREADY OVERcharged (4V)! Your BMS is currently NOT working. If you continue charging you could kill the cells in your battery.
 
Milou said:
I get a total of 52 Volts yet, when I check it after the BMS (Red to Black or yellow) I only get 25Volts. What gives??? I assume the BMS is at fault?
Yes, most likely.

Milou said:
In addition, I am not getting any volt reading from the 15th cell positive to negative. Why would I not get any reading?
I am also surprised to see 4.0 Volts. Perhaps my multimeter is not calibrated (it is an analog).
Post a picture of your analog multimeter.
 
SamTexas said:
Milou, if your charger (the one that comes with your battery) is still connected you need to disconnect it now. Most of the cells in your battery are ALREADY OVERcharged (4V)! Your BMS is currently NOT working. If you continue charging you could kill the cells in your battery.

I have it disconnected.

Included are pictures of meter and some of the readings on my battery. Thanks JJ
 

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Your voltmeter appears to be fine. Looks like cell 15 is really dead. You can try charging it up using a cell phone charger (the same way you charged the other low cell), but I'm not hopeful. A 0.0V cell will unlikely recover.

Check the 4.0V cells in a few hours. If their voltage don't settle down to around 3.7V you might have to discharge them.
 
the 4V is most probably 3.9V limit since this is an analog meter. your list says pins, but where did you measure?

did you put the voltmeter probes on the terminals of the battery cells themselves or measure on the black plug?

like i asked, you need to show us a picture of the BMS. looking at the plastic case around the BMS is useless.

the reason it is shut off is most likely because of the low cell reading, so the BMS is functioning normally.
 
Why do you say 3.9V is the limit on the analog voltmeter? The picture he posted clearly shows a range up to 10V. He has said more than once that the BMS is sealed. And his BMS is not working at this moment because it has allowed many cells to go up to 4V.
 
SamTexas said:
Your voltmeter appears to be fine. Looks like cell 15 is really dead. You can try charging it up using a cell phone charger (the same way you charged the other low cell), but I'm not hopeful. A 0.0V cell will unlikely recover.

Check the 4.0V cells in a few hours. If their voltage don't settle down to around 3.7V you might have to discharge them.

It has been two days since the last charge. I checked them today. Some did go down at 0.01 V.. They seem to be slowly averaging out as a group. The total voltage of the pack is now 51V at the battery red/black, 10 gauge wires.

The result:

Pins Volts
1 - 2 1.8
2 - 3 4.0
3 - 4 3.9
4 - 5 4.0
5 - 6 3.9
6 - 7 3.8
7 - 8 3.9
8 - 9 3.6
9 - 10 3.9
10 - 11 3.8
11 - 12 3.9
12 - 13 3.7
13 - 14 3.6
14 - 15 3.6


Total 51

dnmun said:
the 4V is most probably 3.9V limit since this is an analog meter. your list says pins, but where did you measure?

did you put the voltmeter probes on the terminals of the battery cells themselves or measure on the black plug?

like i asked, you need to show us a picture of the BMS. looking at the plastic case around the BMS is useless.

the reason it is shut off is most likely because of the low cell reading, so the BMS is functioning normally.

I measured from the pins (the battery side of the black connector, based on my PDF drawing). But I am ready to separate each cell to read individually. \

There is nothing to show on the BMS. It looks as you said "plastic case", gray color, completely sealed, and no markings on it.

If I have to replace the BMS. Is it possible without having details about the batteries? What unit would I need to look for?
 
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