BBS02 number of PAS levels effect

[EstebanUno]

I'm wondering what the effect of choosing fewer than 9 PAS levels is? If one chooses say 5, does that translate into the same full power in PAS 5 as the maximum level of 9 would, with a bigger jump from level to level? Would that make level 1 of 6 somewhat equal to level 2 of 9?

I'm finding in my mountainous region that with 9 PAS levels, level 3 is just noticeable, while level 4 is quite a boost, often more than I want. Levels 1 and 2 seem to actually be a drag rather than a help. I'm hoping to tweak things without getting into reprogramming. Some understanding of the basic PAS principles would help.

 

[opperpanter]

Yes level 5 will be same as level 9. I think it's explained in the bbs02 prison thread (or the main bafang middrive thread)

 

[EstebanUno]

... I think it's explained in the bbs02 prison thread (or the main bafang middrive thread)

LOL. The haystack thread. Not much activity there these days, so I hesitate to ask questions there. I'll try to find the needle in the haystack for the full explanation.

 

[tomjasz]

I have two bikes with identical motors. One with level 5, the other with 9. I alternate bikes and I see no difference. I am disappointed in the performance of PAS on all my bikes and will be converting to torque based PAS on my hub drives. Current PAS seems to work more like an on off switch.

 

[tomjasz]

Try reading from this page. Kepler's posts may be helpful.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=58780&start=425

 

[opperpanter]

... I think it's explained in the bbs02 prison thread (or the main bafang middrive thread)

LOL. The haystack thread. Not much activity there these days, so I hesitate to ask questions there. I'll try to find the needle in the haystack for the full explanation.

So you want somebody else to do the searching for you?
You can change the number of PAS levels in the display without programming and experience it first hand. At least in my display that's possible. Check the manuals at em3ev.com.

 

[alfantastic]

I'm wondering what the effect of choosing fewer than 9 PAS levels is? If one chooses say 5, does that translate into the same full power in PAS 5 as the maximum level of 9 would, with a bigger jump from level to level?

As opperpanter says, the only way to find out is give it a go, so take a look at the manual:

http://vacano.de/BAFANG/Manual C965.pdf

Scroll down to section 9 and enter password.

Then use the display power button to go through the options until you reach the PAS menu.
Use +/- to change the parameter and then power button to finalize.

 

[tomjasz]

So you want somebody else to do the searching for you?

It's called helping another poster. No big deal. When I first came here it was after another stroke. Lot's of folks helped. It was greatly appreciated and hopefully I can return some of that help. But taking pokes seems a waste of time. :lol:

Again, there is no difference in 5 or 9 levels. The PAS is really not much more than an off on switch as it functions. Torque sensing would be swell, but sadly NOT what we get.

 

[EstebanUno]

So you want somebody else to do the searching for you?

No, but someone might actually know how this works and be inclined to share that information. I've already spent a lot of time searching before posting the question, and also some time experimenting, but the effect of changing the number of levels is not clear to me from either pursuit. Thanks to this thread I now know that number of levels chosen doesn't affect maximum power. Still not clear about percentage of power applied over fewer levels. Intuitively I would think the power jumps between levels would be bigger with fewer levels chosen, but between 6 and 9 levels the jumps seem practically identical.

I already know how to change levels, sorry if that wasn't clear, but the result from doing so is hazy.

Latest experimenting with 6 levels seems identical to 9 levels, but the range of useful assist spans from 2 to 6 rather than 3 to 9. Same big jump from almost no assist from 2 to 3 using six levels as from 3 to 4 using nine. I find 6 a slight improvement over 9 because zero assist is fewer button pushes away.

 

[alfantastic]

EstebanUno, I changed my PAS range from 0-9 to 0-5 today and I find it to be much more useable. You described the issue with 0-9 exactly.

See my post a few posts up and give it a whirl. I guarantee you won't regret the change.

 

[opperpanter]

So you want somebody else to do the searching for you?

No, but someone might actually know how this works and be inclined to share that information. I've already spent a lot of time searching before posting the question, and also some time experimenting, but the effect of changing the number of levels is not clear to me from either pursuit. Thanks to this thread I now know that number of levels chosen doesn't affect maximum power. Still not clear about percentage of power applied over fewer levels. Intuitively I would think the power jumps between levels would be bigger with fewer levels chosen, but between 6 and 9 levels the jumps seem practically identical.

I already know how to change levels, sorry if that wasn't clear, but the result from doing so is hazy.

Latest experimenting with 6 levels seems identical to 9 levels, but the range of useful assist spans from 2 to 6 rather than 3 to 9. Same big jump from almost no assist from 2 to 3 using six levels as from 3 to 4 using nine. I find 6 a slight improvement over 9 because zero assist is fewer button pushes away.

Well, didn't know that. Your first post looked like you didn't try or read anything :lol:

 

[EstebanUno]

See my post a few posts up and give it a whirl. I guarantee you won't regret the change.

alfantastic, I just set levels to 5 for a test. I don't think I can ride until Saturday though. Will post afterwards.

Thanks,
Esteban

 

[opperpanter]

EstebanUno, I changed my PAS range from 0-9 to 0-5 today and I find it to be much more useable. You described the issue with 0-9 exactly.

See my post a few posts up and give it a whirl. I guarantee you won't regret the change.

This actually got me thinking as well. Do I really need 9 levels? Gonna try with 5 next week.

 

[Ade]

EstebanUno, I changed my PAS range from 0-9 to 0-5 today and I find it to be much more useable. You described the issue with 0-9 exactly.

See my post a few posts up and give it a whirl. I guarantee you won't regret the change.

This actually got me thinking as well. Do I really need 9 levels? Gonna try with 5 next week.

I started with 9 but quickly decided it was overkill and changed to 5. And out of those 5 I only really use 2; level 2 for pedestrian areas and level 5 for road/bike lanes - perhaps I should change to 3 levels.

 

[alfantastic]

EstebanUno, I changed my PAS range from 0-9 to 0-5 today and I find it to be much more useable. You described the issue with 0-9 exactly.

See my post a few posts up and give it a whirl. I guarantee you won't regret the change.

This actually got me thinking as well. Do I really need 9 levels? Gonna try with 5 next week.

I started with 9 but quickly decided it was overkill and changed to 5. And out of those 5 I only really use 2; level 2 for pedestrian areas and level 5 for road/bike lanes - perhaps I should change to 3 levels.

I think Bafang have been quite clever in trying to match each PAS level to a gear on the rear cog set. Plumping for the middle range of average bikes which have 8-10 clusters.

But as some riders find out, 9 levels is not really user friendly or necessary in the real world.

 

[tln]

I started with 9 but quickly decided it was overkill and changed to 5. And out of those 5 I only really use 2; level 2 for pedestrian areas and level 5 for road/bike lanes - perhaps I should change to 3 levels.

I started with 3, now use 4

Level 4. Mega hill or mega speed
Level 3. Most of the time I'm here
Level 2. Technical stuff, or going slow with other riders
Level 1. Going real slow with other riders

These assist levels are just about perfect for me, except to maybe boost #1 a tad.

 

[alfantastic]

I started with 9 but quickly decided it was overkill and changed to 5. And out of those 5 I only really use 2; level 2 for pedestrian areas and level 5 for road/bike lanes - perhaps I should change to 3 levels.

I started with 3, now use 4

Level 4. Mega hill or mega speed
Level 3. Most of the time I'm here
Level 2. Technical stuff, or going slow with other riders
Level 1. Going real slow with other riders

These assist levels are just about perfect for me, except to maybe boost #1 a tad.

Would you mind posting which BBSxx and chainring and rear cog set range you're running please.

 

[tln]

I started with 9 but quickly decided it was overkill and changed to 5. And out of those 5 I only really use 2; level 2 for pedestrian areas and level 5 for road/bike lanes - perhaps I should change to 3 levels.

I started with 3, now use 4

Level 4. Mega hill or mega speed
Level 3. Most of the time I'm here
Level 2. Technical stuff, or going slow with other riders
Level 1. Going real slow with other riders

These assist levels are just about perfect for me, except to maybe boost #1 a tad.

Would you mind posting which BBSxx and chainring and rear cog set range you're running please.

Sure thing... BBS02 750w with 42t up front and 12-34t rear

 

[alfantastic]

Sure thing... BBS02 750w with 42t up front and 12-34t rear

Almost the same as mine, apart from I'm running a 11-32t rear.

With PAS set to 0-5, it makes for an excellent combo of ability and performance

 

[EstebanUno]

Alfantastic, great recommendation! I tried 5 PAS levels on a long ride over challenging terrain yesterday. 46 miles, 3317 feet elevation gain. I really liked it. Big improvement over either 9 or 6 levels that I had previously tried. Below is how the levels performed from a climbing perspective. Bicycle is a tandem ~350 lbs w/ 2 riders, very fast down hill, efficient on the flat, but a real bear when it comes to climbing.

Level 1: Very slow, used to get tandem rolling and clip in pedals on incline. Could be used on very slow climbs to conserve battery, or to ride with others.
Level 2: Slow paced climbs. Good battery conservation.
Level 3: Moderate to fast paced climbs, depending on the grade. Biggest bump from previous level, but still an improvement in this regard.
Level 4: Moderate pace for very steep grades.
Level 5: Didn't use but know I will on some 15% plus grades on other routes around here.

Note: When not climbing used level 0, unless conditions reduced speed to < 15 mph. Not much experience with that condition yesterday.

 

[Tamaz]

Only thing you change is number of steps. If you use the programming cable you can set whatever levels you want. I have 9 settings where 8 is 100% and 9 is 25% and max 25km/h if someone wants to test my bike for legal reasons... As you all say you dont really need nine steps. Most of us only use three to five different steps. Having many is nice when programming, you have nine steps to test while riding and then you can save the three or four you use and remove the rest.

 

[alfantastic]

I have 9 settings where 8 is 100% and 9 is 25% and max 25km/h if someone wants to test my bike for legal reasons...

I don't see how you would stop the ' legality ' tester from selecting level 8 and deeming your bike as illegal?

Or did you mean, a friend can test the bike as if it had a legal 250w 25km/h kit fitted?

 

[Tamaz]

It's not a bullet proof plan at all, but both setting 1 and 9 (maximum!) is road legal. Combined with PAS only, no throttle, it's harder to determine if the power comes from the bike motor or the cyclist.

 

[EstebanUno]

I've found that 5 levels vs 9 has equaled more AH usage for my rides by a factor of about 1.25. So I've been looking for an explanation about how choosing fewer levels translates into practical usage.

I found the following article that explained this at Electric-FatBike.com: https://electricfatbike.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/a-hackers-guide-to-programming-the-bbs02/

A quick note on power levels. If your display is set to only use 3 power levels then the controller uses settings for Asst1, Asst5 and Asst9 and ignores all the rest. If it is set to 5 levels than it ignores every other power level setting (but uses Asst1\3\5\7\9).

Based on limited experience, I would guess that as levels are increased from 5, they are added to the low end. So 6 would use settings for Asst1\2\3\5\7\9. Fill in the numbers from low to high as you add more levels. This is speculation on my part.

Only thing you change is number of steps.

Tamaz had the answer, but I didn't understand the details.

Although it's not likely that I'll get just what I want without programming, knowing how the number of levels is implemented can only help.

 

[Spanglo]

5 levels of assist does sound ideal.

When listing your levels can you include the % of total current?

How do these levels of assist sound to you guys?

Level 1: 15% of total current
Level 2: 30%
Level 3: 60%
Level 4: 85%
Level 5: 100%