Chaos 1600 new batteries.

[ChrisG1969]

I am new to this and have a Chaos GT1600 hub drive scooter. The lithium battery seems to be getting old and would like to replace.
New ones seem to be about £250 and i wondered if there was a cheaper option?
Maybe AGM, as these seem to be about £90 for 4 batteries that could be joined together.
Any help would be appreciated.
Many thanks.

 

[amberwolf]

While lead (AGM, SLA, FLA, etc) batteries might work, they will provide only about half the capacity they are rated at (since the rating is for 1/20C usage rather than the high current application (usually several times 1C) you'd be using them in. If you don't need much range, it'll probably work out.

They typically weigh about twice what a good lithium battery of the same *rated* capacity is, meaning that lead really delivers about 1/4 the capacity for the same weight. (lead that claims to be lighter usually has less current delivery capability, and/or less actual capacity, than "normal" weight lead batteries).

They will also age rapidly, often only lasting 50-100 charge cycles before losing significant capacity and capability. Ensuring you recharge as soon as you stop riding can help slow this degradation, but it is still usually rapid vs a good lithium battery.

The latter is also true of many cheap lithium batteries...In batteries, you usually pay for what you get (though you may not always get what you pay for ).

 

[ChrisG1969]

While lead (AGM, SLA, FLA, etc) batteries might work, they will provide only about half the capacity they are rated at (since the rating is for 1/20C usage rather than the high current application (usually several times 1C) you'd be using them in. If you don't need much range, it'll probably work out.

They typically weigh about twice what a good lithium battery of the same *rated* capacity is, meaning that lead really delivers about 1/4 the capacity for the same weight. (lead that claims to be lighter usually has less current delivery capability, and/or less actual capacity, than "normal" weight lead batteries).

They will also age rapidly, often only lasting 50-100 charge cycles before losing significant capacity and capability. Ensuring you recharge as soon as you stop riding can help slow this degradation, but it is still usually rapid vs a good lithium battery.

The latter is also true of many cheap lithium batteries...In batteries, you usually pay for what you get (though you may not always get what you pay for ).

Thank you so much for that. It seems like the lithium is the only real solution.
Your last comment “you usually pay for what you get (though you may not always get what you pay for” I think is absolutely true!!
I guess my next question is are the £250 original replacement batteries worth it? Are there other batteries i could use?
Many thanks for your help and advice.
Chris

 

[Ianhill]

Thank you so much for that. It seems like the lithium is the only real solution.
Your last comment “you usually pay for what you get (though you may not always get what you pay for” I think is absolutely true!!
I guess my next question is are the £250 original replacement batteries worth it? Are there other batteries i could use?
Many thanks for your help and advice.
Chris

Hi chris, i sent an older version of these to the moon a few eclipses ago and managed to get over 45mph but the voltage has to be increased to get there so unless your keen on the hobby and fancy pushing some boundarys id advice to get a suitbale replacement if needed.

The only reason been you then need a new charger and controller as well as the battery to get it on the road but for the extra £150 or so on the parts and what ever extra a 16s 60v battery costs you do get a fair old bump up in power so its totally down to you but we are always here every step of the way to help, amberwolf has many years experince in the game your in good hands.

 

[ChrisG1969]

Ian
Thank you so much. I’m fairly practical but only as i restore old cars. The electric thing is something i know little about!
I’m not actually looking for any more speed or performance. To be honest my wife uses it on our summer holidays to get up and down the hill to the camp site. It’s about 2 miles and fairly steep in parts. Just judging by the range and the drop in performance, it’s clear the batteries are past their best.
Looking at the cost of new battery packs, it almost seems better to sell it and buy a new one for £600!
I would really like to just buy some lithium batteries and connect them up myself as I’m sure it would be a cheaper option?
I would value your expert opinion!!
Many thanks

 

[amberwolf]

I don't know what the specs for the replacements are, so couldn't say if they're worth it or not.
The battery is the heart of the system, and especially in a usage case like yours where max power is probably required a lot, it's important to get one that can supply what your system needs to do that job for as long as you need it to, and good ones cost more...

Without knowing the power requirements for your system, I couldn't point you at good replacements. To find one that is suited you need to know what the max and continuous currents the system will need from the battery. Uusally the current limit of the controller will tell you the A it has to handle; if not you can take the max power the system is rated for and divide by the system voltage, and use that for a guess of the A the battery must supply. For a 48v system, then you'd be looking for a 13s Li-Ion pack, or 16s LiFePO4 pack, but the number of p cells (parallel) depend on which cell they use and what that cell's capabilities are. (52v is 14s Li-Ion)

Some thoughts on looking for a battery pack:

Most of the cells in most of the cheap packs are listed as "generic", meaning you can't even know which ones they are much less what they can do. Sellers of cheap packs that list a specific brand of cell but not a model usually mean they aren't actually that brand, or they are recycled garbage cells salvaged from damaged or scrapped packs, so they may be mixed versions, and the pack will not perform well. (the same can be true of 'generic" listings).

If they list a specific cell brand and model, you can look up the specs to see if their claims match the capabilities of the number of p cells they claim, and you can match the weight of the total number of cells Xs * Xp = at least the weight of the pack they claim (their weight should be heavier than that becuase of interconnects, wires, casing, BMS, etc).

If the pack does'nt specify it has a balancing BMS, you should assume it doesn't have one, and that any imbalance in the cell voltages will only grow worse with time, making the pack less and less useful with every charge cycle. (cheap packs wont' likely have well-matched cells that stay balanced on their own; most non-cheap packs don't either).

There's other things to look for, but those are some of the most important.


If you want to build your own, it gets more complicated, and you'll have a fair bit of learning ahead unless you already have experience building battery packs.

It probably wont' cost any less, as you'll need the tools and testing equipment to build the pack, which are generally not used for other things much, and won't contribute to the ability of the pack to do what you want, so it may cost more to build your own of the same capabilites, unless you will be building packs in the future as well.