Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

[justin_le]

Justin and LFP,

Thanks for your advice and insight, you guys rock.

LFP, I don't know what to say about BIonX, the closed system part does suck. I've voided the warranties several times over and fried one while running at high voltage. If I could tell you how awesome it feels to fly around in the night on a BIonX, up and down huge hills (I get up to 1500 watts of assist when overvolting) with no thought about interface, its like the bike comes alive. You pedal harder, it pedals harder... until you're pushing it for all you can get...

I've driven a roadster and know the kick ass feeling of acceleration that knocks your head into the headrest like a dropped bowling ball hitting the floor all under the eerily silent and vibration free power of the motor, so I get where you're coming from too...

It is great how Justin's new V3 brings both sides of ebiking together.

Thanks for sharing your encouraging experience Silenceflight. This seems like a whole new arena open to experience: the Bionic feeling of having your leg power amplified not like 1x or 2x like on pedalecs, but 10x or 20x or even 100x! I too think it would be just awesome.

-Justin

 

[Green Machine]

I just read that bionx sold 50,000 kits last year. A really pricey kit by the way, the bionx 500 watt kits (with battery) costs $2,000.

And Smart Car (mercedes) and a few other high end ebikes that are coming out chose the bionx system for some reason.

So bionx must be doing something right and i was just wondering what that was. Maybe it is the cadence sensor/pedal assist feature? Its wild that soon all ebikes will have the capability to have this feature, and sounds like maybe even a better system.

It is mind blowing to think how much this single feature could change things if it works well. Then there is all the other new features.

 

[amberwolf]

Originally all I ever wanted for my electrimotorification project was something literally like bionic legs, just to multply my own pedalling many times to power the wheel.

I researched a lot fo things in my quest, and BionX's method was pretty much what I wanted to do, AFAICT. But I hadn't any money to do that, and never found an acceptable way I was capable of building that would let me control the throttle via pedals. I only actually built one, and it didn't work very well at all; I had ideas for many others but all basically worked the same.


If I had a cheap easy way to reliably do the pedal torque sensing, I'd still want to do it that way, though I want a lot more power than BionX provides.


So I can understand how a lot of cyclists would appreciate the BionX method more than the typical ebike throttle-style, and why BionX could be really successful despite some of it's problems adn it's high cost. Or even the common "pedalec" systems that use just a sensor to see if the pedals are moving and then apply throttle based on that, which seems to be not such a great method, or at least the sensors aren't great.

If I had had money for BionX, I would probably have gotten one, and ended up happy with it, never getting into this whole quest, and probably never finding ES and such.

 

[rosich]

[youtube]aTpYKMi2r6U[/youtube]

Can anyone comment and compare with this product ? they seem to have all features of V3 ?
Dashboard CA or Android phone ? which one better ?

 

[rosich]

Originally all I ever wanted for my electrimotorification project was something literally like bionic legs, just to multply my own pedalling many times to power the wheel.

I researched a lot fo things in my quest, and BionX's method was pretty much what I wanted to do, AFAICT. But I hadn't any money to do that, and never found an acceptable way I was capable of building that would let me control the throttle via pedals. I only actually built one, and it didn't work very well at all; I had ideas for many others but all basically worked the same.


If I had a cheap easy way to reliably do the pedal torque sensing, I'd still want to do it that way, though I want a lot more power than BionX provides.


So I can understand how a lot of cyclists would appreciate the BionX method more than the typical ebike throttle-style, and why BionX could be really successful despite some of it's problems adn it's high cost. Or even the common "pedalec" systems that use just a sensor to see if the pedals are moving and then apply throttle based on that, which seems to be not such a great method, or at least the sensors aren't great.

If I had had money for BionX, I would probably have gotten one, and ended up happy with it, never getting into this whole quest, and probably never finding ES and such.

what is "throttle via pedals" means ?

 

[rosich]

hi fellows,

i am going to place an order from speedict, just download their user guide (sorry it is too big 60 pages), i just capture one of its mode - Road Legal mode, it has pas, twist-throttle, temperature sensor input, look similar to CA v3 ?
do i need to wait for CA production ?

 

[johnrobholmes]

I would personally want a dedicated device like the CA. The speedict looks like a cool device, but I don't like the idea of relying on my already sketchy phone to change the parameters of the system.


I would say the speedict is closer to a v2 without all the full controls. It in no way touches the feature list of the v3.

 

[rosich]

I would personally want a dedicated device like the CA. The speedict looks like a cool device, but I don't like the idea of relying on my already sketchy phone to change the parameters of the system.


I would say the speedict is closer to a v2 without all the full controls. It in no way touches the feature list of the v3.

hi john,

what is full controls mean ? can you help ?

 

[johnrobholmes]

Read up on the v2 CA here http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

There are too many options for me to just describe, you will have to read the manual to understand fully.

 

[justin_le]

Ideally, I think we want a nonlinear throttle mapping that changes dynamically with speed - something like this:

Here the relatively flat linear range is initially in effect at 0-speed and advances upward and to the right until full-speed. This has the effect of compressing the RoM in different portions of the mapping according to speed, but expanding the end(s) of the RoM so that no-throttle and WOT are still reachable.

Hey Teklektik, of all throttle mapping concepts so far I really think you may have nailed it with this one. It's a bit similar to what I was suggesting with a flatter curve and KV compensation, but still guaranteeing the full range of throttle outputs being accessible at any speed. Plus, it's easily parametrizable where you could select the amount of expansion of the RoM, as well as the associated slope in this region, and them compute the curves on the fly.

I'm going to give some thought about the best way to implement this (look up tables vs. computing on the fly) and will try to get it in the next firmware update to test out.

Anyhow, just thought I'd throw this out there.... :wink:

I think it's a good one. We'll call it the Teklektik throttle mode if it pans out!

 

[justin_le]

Dashboard CA or Android phone ? which one better ?

Hey Rosich, the Speedict is a very nifty piece of a kit as well, using an android phone as a display/interface device rather than a dedicated display, and there are pros and cons to each approach. However, this isn't the appropriate thread for giving purchase suggestions or advice for one product or another. If you would like that discussion we could move it over to a new thread for you.

-Justin

 

[justin_le]

It would be interesting to have a mode in setup that would display the throttle voltage the CA is receiving.

+1 for throttle voltage display!
Actually - both Vi and Th on same display to see both the gozinta and gozoutta...

You guys are mind readers. I don't have my photos handy now but one of the additional screens I added for diagnostics shows the throttle input voltage, the Aux input voltage, the torque sensor voltage, and the current throttle output voltage. It's really neat to watch the input/output relationship play out in real time, and quite useful too.

For instance, in the white ebike I had setup I could watch the CA's throttle output rapidly go up to 4V, while the controller was still slowly ramping up in power, so knew at that point that the latency wasn't from the CA's feedback but from controller soft-start. That also made it quite easy to 'tune' the CA's feedback so that it had roughly the same throttle ramp limit as the controler, and hence reduce overshoot situations.

I might be able to fit another small vertical bar beside the throttle slider that shows the CA's output signal, such that it's always visible on the main display too.

-Justin

 

[oatnet]

Wow Justin, I ask for an inch and you give a mile. Showing all 4 voltages rocks, and having both throttle and ca output on the main display is going to be a profound upgrade.

Thanks!
-JD

 

[teklektik]

I'm going to give some thought about the best way to implement this (look up tables vs. computing on the fly) and will try to get it in the next firmware update to test out.

I'm very happy this struck a chord and will be very interested in the drivability of the concept.

...one of the additional screens I added for diagnostics shows the throttle input voltage, the Aux input voltage, the torque sensor voltage, and the current throttle output voltage. It's really neat to watch the input/output relationship play out in real time, and quite useful too.

Excellent - extremely useful! 8) 8) 8)

Looking forward to your beta test announcement

 

[Quajochem]

OMG I love this, but at the same time I feel like a rookie, to tune it right, it takes alot of time and effort.
It's fascinating though, tuning is half the fun

 

[teklektik]

Okay, one last 'would be nice'....

It might be nice to have two configurable Power Limit (Max Watts) settings: Street and Trail and a option to determine which mode is in effect when powered ON: Street/Trail/Last. Holding down both CA buttons at once for few seconds (a la Setup/Reset) would toggle the mode and briefly display "Street" or "Trail" before resuming the previous display mode. The current Power Limit numerical setting would be viewable outside of Setup as one of the normal top level summary screens without any specific reference to Street or Trail mode.

Any similarity of this feature to the Boss Button of the early days of video games is purely coincidental.

 

[thefost]

Okay, one last 'would be nice'....

I might be nice to have two configurable Power Limit (Max Watts) settings: Street and Trail and a option to determine which mode is in effect when powered ON: Street/Trail/Last. Holding down both CA buttons at once for few seconds (a la Setup/Reset) would toggle the mode and briefly display "Street" or "Trail" before resuming the previous display mode. The current Power Limit numerical setting would be viewable outside of Setup as one of the normal top level summary screens without any specific reference to Street or Trail mode.

Any similarity of this feature to the Boss Button of the early days of video games is purely coincidental.

+1!
Strangely enough I had almost this exact same idea pop in my head while I was riding today. Unfortunately it popped right back out of my head a few seconds later like 95% of my ideas, so thank you teklektik for the deja vu!

 

[hjns]

Amazing work, Justin!!!!

Freedom to map the throttle output in different ways would really be a breakthrough for me!

Actually, I would prefer if we could set the points ourselves, like with any programmable TX in the RC heliworld. My Tx lets me program 5 points; throttle input 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100%, and I can set any output % that I prefer for those points. The Tx will then superimpose a curve over the configurable positions. For some helis with a high rpm, for practice purposes I would set throttle output to 0%-40%-50%-60%-100% (in normal mode), leading to a less sensitive throttle around midstick.

For the throttle that I am using right now on my ebike - which is very sensitive at start and has much more resolution at the end - I would program my throttle at 0%-20%-40%-70%-100%, to get more resolution at the start, and less at the end. This would in effect remove the abrupt start of my throttle, and would be more like the blue curve in Telektik's diagrams.

Would that be possible to program?

 

[Kepler]

Okay, one last 'would be nice'....

I might be nice to have two configurable Power Limit (Max Watts) settings: Street and Trail and a option to determine which mode is in effect when powered ON: Street/Trail/Last. Holding down both CA buttons at once for few seconds (a la Setup/Reset) would toggle the mode and briefly display "Street" or "Trail" before resuming the previous display mode. The current Power Limit numerical setting would be viewable outside of Setup as one of the normal top level summary screens without any specific reference to Street or Trail mode.

Any similarity of this feature to the Boss Button of the early days of video games is purely coincidental.

+2
I am thinking street legal mode and Fun mode. 8)

 

[johnrobholmes]

It would be possible to set up the CA in amp mode, and then have a switch that bypasses a resistor on the throttle. Resistor in series= low power mode. Resistor bypassed = high power mode.

 

[teklektik]

It would be possible to set up the CA in amp mode, and then have a switch that bypasses a resistor on the throttle. Resistor in series= low power mode. Resistor bypassed = high power mode.

Yep - you don't even need the CA to do that. But a resistor doesn't let you say: "But look officer, the Power Limit is XYZZY Watts."

 

[Ypedal]

I would dare say most officers have not a clue what a watt represents..

 

[Quajochem]

I would dare say most officers have not a clue what a watt represents..

+++

 

[teklektik]

I would dare say most officers have not a clue what a watt represents..

Maybe - but in this state it differentiates motor vehicles from unregistered 'power assisted cycles' and the magic number by state statute is 5HP or 3750W - there is no special speed limit for such unregistered vehicles. If he insists on a ticket - just have him write the Watts on the back of the ticket (where they add notes for the court) and you can take it up with the ADA. If the feature isn't useful in a particular state, don't use it :wink:.

 

[Ypedal]

" But sir.. it's 2500w at 36v... that's like... 1/3 of the power at 110v AC " :lol: