Denver commuter e-bike

I cruise at 35-40kmh - at 40 it's using 200watts. The faster I go, the less power it uses (counterintuitive, but I am getting closer to the freewheel speed so it's getting more efficient. The CA doesn't lie!).

I do have to pedal a lot up hills, my battery is on it's last legs. With a new battery I'll probably go up to 12 Wh/km.
 
Ok, so if you're cruising at 40 km/h and your sig states that your no-pedaling speed is 35 km/h I'll assume that you're pedaling constantly. I'm pulling ~22 Wh/hr at 24-26 mph on the flats with no pedaling whatsoever so it's not a fair comparison until I get my gearing sorted out so that I can pedal along as well.

8)
 
hose clamp
zipties
baggies

Earns Toshi...

ONE 40
file.php
 
Toshi said:
Ok, so if you're cruising at 40 km/h and your sig states that your no-pedaling speed is 35 km/h I'll assume that you're pedaling constantly. I'm pulling ~22 Wh/hr at 24-26 mph on the flats with no pedaling whatsoever so it's not a fair comparison until I get my gearing sorted out so that I can pedal along as well.

8)

Yep, I pedal like buggery :)
 
TylerDurden said:
hose clamp
zipties
baggies

Earns Toshi...

ONE 40
file.php
Thanks for the 40. Today I found both its limits and that of the stock REI/Novara rear rack on my Transfer, unfortunately:

img0036ga1.jpg


img0037wi7.jpg


Note the piece of the rear rack still attached to the pannier's mounting points. I was coming home from a gig so was heavily laden. Apparently hitting 36.4 mph on a bumpy downhill road with ~23 lbs of trumpet case on top and ~22 lbs of pannier (18 lb battery, dress shoes, pit black concert dress, rain shell, a few tools) causes forces greater than the material strength of the rear rack, which is nominally rated at 25 kg.

I'm not going to seek a warranty replacement for the rack from REI since I feel I was subjecting it to strains it simply wasn't designed for.

The second photo is significant because it shows that my single-40 oz torque arm failed somewhere down this bumpy road. I'm extremely thankful that I escaped unharmed: the rack failed, pulling its Powerpole connector apart, which in turn caused voltage to drop precipitously (but not immediately as I was cooking along at near-regen speeds). This voltage drop in turn caused me to immediately stop and pull over before any front-wheel shenanigans could ensue.

Yikes. Time to rethink my design a bit:

Torque arm: I'll hunt down locking nuts, and am planning on ordering an enclosed, steel torque arm from the Aussie getadirtbike from here on endless-sphere.

p1010076qt8.jpg


Broken rear rack/pannier/battery location: Mounting 18 lbs of lithium off the side of a rack puts great forces on it, as I demonstrated today. I have two choices as I see it: mount the battery on top, as I did before, or replace the rear rack with a sturdier unit.

I'd really rather not mount the battery on top because I like having that space open for cargo, and also am quite the fan of the Ortlieb pannier's waterproofing and quick-release system. So what options do I have for sturdier racks? Tubus comes immediately to mind. Here's their steel Cargo rack, rated for 40 kg!

200708091110465kp5.jpg

In non-traumatic news I'm just shy of 166 miles now, having used about 19 cents of electricity thus far.
 
TylerDurden said:
Holy cow. No damage to batts, motor or horn? :shock:
Horn? ¿Que?

The CA fired right back up once I got all the pieces home, so I think it's intact, along with its wiring and the battery. I haven't tried to run the motor again, of course, as I'm still decompressing off the bike but I'm pretty sure the axle didn't rotate at all. I shut it down immediately (and was coasting downhill when all hell broke loose) and by the time I noticed something was wrong and tried to twist the throttle I was well below the CA's LVC at an indicated 25V and dropping quickly...

I'm definitely going to give things a thorough once-over tonight.
 
TylerDurden said:
Toshi said:
Horn? ¿Que?.
Trumpet?
("...23lb Trumpet case...")
For that matter... 23lbs? Sheet music? Anvil Case?
:?
Ah, my brain hasn't quite turned itself on. The trumpets are fine.

Why so heavy? I play Monette trumpets: http://www.monette.net/ . They're all custom, and range from heavy to really, really heavy. My two (B flat and C) are heavy and really heavy, respectively. 8) The mouthpieces are also huge slabs of metal, and the double case is a tank on its own as well.

Here's a Monette C trumpet mouthpiece with the horn itself back in the bokeh, for an illustration of how heavy everything is:

 
TylerDurden said:
Maybe you could get Dave Monette to make you a rack...

But that could weigh 50 lbs.

:mrgreen:
Not to mention that it'd be close to an order of magnitude more expensive than most anything else out there and would require 9 months "gestation time" in the mothership before being released to the customer's paws... but it'd be nice. :mrgreen:

On a more serious note I just ordered up a replacement rack, the Tubus Cargo mentioned a few posts ago. (REI.com has it with free shipping thanks to store pickup, not to mention the always-available 15% discount if you sign up for their newsletter, from which you can immediately unsubscribe...)

The Cargo looks to be a good fit for the loads in question, being steel and rated for 40 kg. http://www.tubus.com/index/lang/en/rubrik/Rear%20Carriers/artikel/Cargo

Tubus.com said:
big image uninlined: http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7747/200708081351195eo2.jpg

Material: 25CrMo4
Weight: 610g
Max. Load: 40 kg

Late 5/18/08 update: Removed the slipped torque arm, dialed down the current limit to 20A, made sure that the wheel was seated all the way up in the drops (or at least far as it would reasonably go with the urging of the rubber mallet o' death), hooked up the pannier to the still-existing top bar of the REI rack, and took a spin to verify that the electric bits still go whirrrrrr.

They do. The CA's 20A software current limiter is pretty granular! However, it seems the prudent thing to do while running no torque arm. Tomorrow I'll be off to a hardware store in search of better-fitting washers and locking nuts so that I can redo the ghetto torque arm with better results.
 
The CA's 20A software current limiter is pretty granular!

That can be adjusted. There are gain settings in the Advanced setup bit of the CA. Perhaps IntAGain... Email Justin and ask exactly which setting. One end of the pendulum will make the response time slower; the other direction will make the throttle inhibit jerky.

As for your torque arm, try another hose clamp right where the wrench leaves the axle nut. That should help keep it from slipping out.

Also, where's that link to the stand? I need to investigate if I can get one on my ride.
 
Thanks for the tip about adding another hose clamp. I may give that a try. I'm not sold on the wrench concept since the wrench's slippery and curved surfaces (not to mention that it's difficult to get it entirely straight) would seem to limit clamping force significantly. As for the current limit granularity, I'll just live with it. It just was a bit disconcerting, accelerating in tiny little bursts.

The center stand was mentioned back on page 5 (assuming 15 posts per page -- any way to change this, by the way?):

Toshi said:
I just ordered a centerstand for the bike. It's sold at Spooky Cycles for $20 USD + $9 shipping.
 
Can you post close-ups of how it mounts? I'm concerned it wouldn't fit my frame, since its swingarm doesn't have the 'normal' parallel tubes just behind the bottom bracket.

You sure are racking up the miles. Got any figures of the gas money you've saved? :mrgreen:
 
lazarus2405 said:
Can you post close-ups of how it mounts? I'm concerned it wouldn't fit my frame, since its swingarm doesn't have the 'normal' parallel tubes just behind the bottom bracket.

You sure are racking up the miles. Got any figures of the gas money you've saved? :mrgreen:
I've saved much more time than gas money, since I already was jetting around by road bike and bus before this. The real savings will come when I cancel my auto insurance and go Zipcar only -- I sold my car outright last week and am just waiting for the Zipcard to arrive before pulling the trigger.

The center stand mounts just like a regular bolt-on kickstand. Here's the centerstand image from below, and a massacred crop of one of my glamour photos that hopefully will illustrate the "ridge" that I describe below:

34085.jpg
cropyu7.jpg


Both designs assume you have a flat metal mounting plate between your chainstays with a centered hole and a metal ridge behind it to keep the kick-/centerstand from rotating. This plate is about 4 x 6 cm, or the size of the top of the centerstand in the above photo. This hole should be large enough to fit a provided bolt, which comes through from the top with a washer. There's no plate or clamp on the top, just this bolt.

If you have an elevated swingarm design and no chainstays behind the BB, per se, then this centerstand would not work without serious rejiggering of the mounting system.
 
Ok, about that torque arm:

getadirtbike can indeed build me a generic set of torque arms as detailed elsewhere on this site. The problems with this setup would be cost and that they're generic. I'd have to figure out a way to mount them to the fork, not to mention clear the dropouts and the fork blades, etc. Much work with a file, drill, and hacksaw would be involved. They'd run about $50 + $20 shipping.

However, in a parallel thread-to-end-all-threads on alternative personal transportation that I started on another board salvation came from above: a local Seattle machinist/toolmaker saw my plight and said he'd be willing to help! Although some research shows that Surly makes several forks that'd be suitable (chromoly for strength, I.S. disc tabs for mounting the torque arm, fender eyelets, and canti bosses for mounting my brakes) the machinist says he might have a steel fork in his basement to which he could just weld disc tabs! Sweet. Cheap is good.

Someone out there is probably thinking, "Why not a suspension fork?" as they typically have both I.S. disc mounts and canti posts.

- I wouldn't trust a used suspension fork found on craigslist and quality new models are expensive
- no good way to mount true fenders such as I already have
- more attractive to thieves with suspension
- I'm stubborn
- choice of fork would be difficult: I've cracked stanchion tubes on XC fork designs and downhill designs are heavy, expensive, and take wheels with hollow, removable 20mm axles, attributes that the Crystalyte's 12mm-with-9mm-flats non-removable, solid axle definitely do not possess.
 
Today was only the second day since I built this thing that I didn't go for a ride with electric power. I did tool around on human power, however.

Lots to report on:

1) Rear rack. I ended up picking up a Tubus Cargo for 26" wheels at a local REI (Seattle is cool enough that we have at least 4 within 25 miles). Furthermore, despite what I initially wrote, I decided to warranty the broken rack. After all, it _was_ rated at 25 kg and failed with a 10 kg load, as I can't see how the load on top would have increased stress on the pannier bars. REI had no qualms, and allowed me to credit the warranty amount towards the Tubus rack. (All said and done the Tubus was $77: $120 with 15% discount code, $25 warranty credit, and $0 tax since I'm technically an Oregon resident.)

The Tubus didn't bolt right on, however. Its tubular design stays triangulated all the way down to the dropouts, and in stock form the rack could reach the rack eyelets on the dropout only if it were angled back about 20 degrees. This clearly wouldn't do, so I filed away material on the dropouts, drilled several pilot holes on the offending rack tube, went to town with metal clippers, and finally bent things into place. Now the rack sits comfortably and jauntily at perhaps a 4 degree forward slope. It feels VERY solid and seemed lighter than the solid aluminum rack it replaced, too! I'm impressed so far.

2) Controller location. Recall from my most recent e-bike version that I had the controller mounted on the side of the rear rack, with the assumption that I'd mount the battery in the main triangle. Given the complete failure of my execution of this idea :x I relocated the controller to its original home in main triangle. It sits now with the power button facing down so as to make a drip loop, with it secured at this bottom end by one of the water bottle cage bolts. The top end is padded with double sided foam tape, and secured by both zipties through the controller's bolt holes and a firm wrap of duct tape. The duct tape also serves to weatherproof that end of the controller a tiny bit more, or so I tell myself.

3) Gearing, part one: the crank chainring (38t stock, replaced with a 48t chainring). Replacing chainrings is no big deal. I cannot recommend the Park Tools Chainring Nut Wrench enough, however. It holds onto the slotted backside of chainring nuts, which can otherwise be infuriating and difficult to tighten. I can now report that the Novara Transfer frame with a stock BB has no problems fitting a 48t chainring in the middle ring position (i.e., on the inboard side of the crank arm spider, for purposes of a straighter chainline). The only catch is that you must mount it such that the little nub points laterally, away from the chainstay that it otherwise will catch with each revolution. This nub's purpose in life is to to prevent chains from falling between the big ring and the crank arm.

4) Gearing, part two: the rear hub's cog (21t stock, replaced with a 16t cog). This was no mean feat given that my Transfer has a Nexus hub. I HIGHLY recommend looking over the Nexus service manual at the departed Sheldon Brown's site. Getting the cog's lockring on was a huge pain. Getting the cassette arm's lockring on was 10x as difficult again. Although replacing it won't be hard now that I've figured out the tricks, muddling through on my own was up there as one of the most frustrating things I've done with a bicycle.

For the curious, here's my ultimately successful technique:

i defeated the scourge that is the Nexus lockring after probably an hour of scratching my head and trying over and over. now that i have a better idea i'm sure i could do it in five minutes, but it's really a cumbersome procedure: you need to secure the axle from spinning (12" crescent on the other side propped against the floor); you need to have everything lined up just so (inner yellow dots on the cassette arm with the axle's yellow dots, AND the outer yellow dot lined with the inner dots -- not in manual); you need to apply copious inwards pressure to the lockring and cassette arm (8" crescent held in right hand); and you need to apply a strong twisting force to the lockring (large flathead screwdriver in left hand). ugh.

5) Taller gearing miscellany. After mastering the lockring at long last I was able to deal with the more mundane issues of gearing: lengthening the chain (I used a 9-speed Shimano chain I had lying about the toolbox -- no issues to report); tensioning the chain after approximating its length (the Transfer's semi-horizontal dropouts make this easy); and remounting the fenders using zipties so as to accommodate the newly lengthened wheelbase courtesy of the chain tensioning step. Zipties rock, simply put.

8)

After all this work I rode the bike around the block as a shakedown and to "get back on the horse" after yesterday's mishap. Things seemed to work fine except that I apparently have only 6 of 7 gears in the rear hub. Tomorrow, in good light, I'll learn the art of adjusting internally geared rear hubs. The one gear that I think I lack is the shortest/easiest one, and I think the swap in gearing from 38-21t to 48-16t should be enough to let me spin along at close to 30 mph. I'm psyched, even if I will be accelerating easy with no torque arm for the next few days until my machinist buddy comes up with a good solution.
 
Adjusting the Nexus hub wasn't bad at all. If it weren't for the annoying process of removing the shifter cable from its perch each time it needed adjustment it'd be easier than adjusting a derailleur, in fact: you just line up two red lines while in gear 4. Sweet. Now I have all 7 gears, driven by a 48-16t chainring-cog setup. Per Sheldon Brown's gear calculator my approximate gear inches should be:

119.4
103.1
88.5
76.4
65.1
57.2
48.8

119.4 is really, really tall. 103.1 is good for cruising on flat ground with assist, doing 25 mph at a cadence of about 60 rpm while taking load off the motor...

I can now say that 48-16t is a fine gear combination with 26" wheels, a 4-series motor, and a Nexus 7-speed hub. 48.8 is still easy enough to start with at intersections, and 119 is taller than I'll need on all but downhills. Put another way (via the soulbikes HPV gear calculator) 50 rpm in the lowest gear will be 7.2 mph. 100 rpm in the high gear will be 35.1 mph.

8)

Note gearing (looks like a track bike, eh?) and crate for grocery shopping purposes:

img0038cc3.jpg
 
I'm not sure what a triangle frame bag would lend me over my current bolt, ziptie, foam tape, and duct tape setup. Assuming it would attach with Velcro or straps it wouldn't be more theft resistant. Weatherproofing, maybe, but the weak link would be the entrance of the wires as now.
 
Hmm at the start of your post you were railing about how everyone's bike is a rat's nest. Now that you have to resort to so many battery mount methods i guess you can appreciate how difficult it is to fully conceal wires and keep everything neat. Most of us keep wires all over the place because we never intend our bike to be finish product and it is easier to keep everything jerry rigged in place because it makes for easier swapping of parts.
 
ngocthach1130 said:
Hmm at the start of your post you were railing about how everyone's bike is a rat's nest. Now that you have to resort to so many battery mount methods i guess you can appreciate how difficult it is to fully conceal wires and keep everything neat. Most of us keep wires all over the place because we never intend our bike to be finish product and it is easier to keep everything jerry rigged in place because it makes for easier swapping of parts.


More importantly, he's happier and having more fun now with his wires than he was with his gorgeous Klein. :mrgreen:
 
My handlebar area is still free from excess! I've also avoided ugly drivetrains; gel seat covers; seatpost racks; and general ugliness. The cable routing is a necessary evil, I suppose, but one need not have Mark_A_W's handlebar setup or Link's battery box...

;)

There's also something to be said for "real bikes" such as my Transfer in regearing for higher speeds, as ngoc above has found out with his crank-switching adventure. Square taper cranks went the way of the dodo long ago...
 
I didn't switch my crank yet. I think it was someone else. Either way, you're probably right that i have to venture down the path of changing my chainring eventually. At the moment on the highest gear i still cannot contribute any power beyond 25mph. I've looked at some 53t chainring but unfortunately they usually come in dual chainring crank and not 3. My rapidfire shifter is made for 3. I understand i can adjust the chainguide to max out at 2 but i'm a bit OCD. I'm having similar problem with my new build. It comes with 9speed shifter rear cassette and rear hub only come with max of 8speed. Will probably drive me crazy. Maybe i can look into that 9speed freewheel mentioned in one of the post here. If not i'll replace both shifter to appease myself.

BTW have you look into those fold out side basket for bikes? If you break your battery into 2 pieces and put them on both side you could do away with the crate and also make the bike slimmer. a full pack on one side is too big.

Keep forgetting to ask. The kickstand does it flip forward or back, can you take a picture of the kick stand when it is folded. If it fold forward, does it interfere with the crank at all?
 
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