DH dual motor = LR mid drive + Grin all-axle front hub

[John Bozi]

Finally after reading most the unofficial guide I came across a gem =

Appendix A

Simply connect the CA green wire to the controller throttle green and wala!

EDIT this is an old image of retrofitting V2 controller for V3.

Have also started getting my head around half the settings... Really stoked to play around with the ramp up speeds, this save a lot of the twitchy jerks! :lol:

Not 100% there but progress is happening..... Not sure which method to use but I am going with the amp way for now.

Now if my bloody charger would arrive I can get some footage of this as it stands temporarily.

I am still waiting on the correct length chainring nuts and bolts from my LBS before I push this to its limits.

 

[John Bozi]

[youtube]U8Mc2UCforw[/youtube]

 

[r3volved]

Great idea on the rear tension! That definitely doesn't look like it will be jumping off that rear sprocket any time soon!

Right at the end of the vid - is that wobble only on the chainring side? It looks and sounds like that 219 sprocket is out of true from that white puddy stuff but I can't tell if the primary side is also wobbling.

Does it sound the same with only the primary side hooked up (motor-to-jackshaft)?

Does it sound the same with both the primary side and secondary side hooked up (motor-to-jackshaft-to-chainwheel)?

Does it sound the same with everything hooked up (motor-to-jackshaft-to-chainwheel-to-cassette) while you're driving and while you've got the rear wheel up?

 

[stonezone]

looking good!

I added a nut/bolt in either side of the jackshaft to keep it from moving. Those collars wont hold it in place (i couldnt get it tight enough).

Now imagine trying to do all of this without a secondary tensioner....

 

[John Bozi]

Right at the end of the vid - is that wobble only on the chainring side? It looks and sounds like that 219 sprocket is out of true from that white puddy stuff but I can't tell if the primary side is also wobbling.

The puddy is polymorph that doesn't touch anything and has no effect on the balance = very light. The wobble is on both sides partly because I can't get the shaft straight and who knows what else. The freewheels aren't perfect too, I don't know about much else.

Does it sound the same with only the primary side hooked up (motor-to-jackshaft)?

Will have to do a test but I am pretty sure the first case for the noise and not being true is here, but it is very related to the shaft not being straight.

Does it sound the same with both the primary side and secondary side hooked up (motor-to-jackshaft-to-chainwheel)?

As above 99% of the noise is from the primary side.

Does it sound the same with everything hooked up (motor-to-jackshaft-to-chainwheel-to-cassette) while you're driving and while you've got the rear wheel up?

You just saw a video of that without the tensioner. Also note my kit has none of those adjustment bolts at the base // BB area of the kit. I only have the two nuts at the top.

Stonezone can you explain or show a photo of the nuts bolts on the jack shaft please?



A video of how true your system is would be great too, I imagine someones got this running true.

 

[John Bozi]

[youtube]JKncx_2dwRQ[/youtube]

around the house

 

[IanM]

Hey John, good to see you have got it running well now. I loved the vid where the slo mo showed the chain flapping about.
Looked like a problem waiting to happen there. If you can manage to reduce the amount of movement that happens I'm sure you will reduce chain derailments. That happened to me a lot on my old gng which resulted in a few busted chains and walks of shame. Broken chain rings and jammed chains, hmm don't miss that at all however your setup should be more reliable than my old bike, a giant AC. The torque at full throttle in higher gears would flex the rear suspension main pivot and swing arm so much I was worried it might break. The bottom bracket bent before that happened. I retired that bike I got sick of all the constant fixing of broken bits. Nice work mate, enjoy.

 

[John Bozi]

Thanks Ian, these are the issues of running power through chains. I have no idea if I destroy this frame with the amount of unnatural torque but the wheel isn't centred already. I am monitoring this every ride. My last ride was limited to 20 amps with 25 as an overshoot. I will up this bit by bit until I can climb the steep stuff. Will give it a go till things continually break and if I cant find solutions well at least I tried. The goal to find a motor with no heat issues is was found, and now the rest follows.

Finally got my 84v 4amp charger from Greentime. I need to do some final wiring shortening sometime over the next couple of weeks. Lots of family commitments mean its hard to get away

 

[stonezone]

Stonezone can you explain or show a photo of the nuts bolts on the jack shaft please?

A video of how true your system is would be great too, I imagine someones got this running true.

sorry, its been so wet and i've been super busy... I'll get some video asap. the sun is out finally.

 

[stonezone]

OK, I finally rode today, and took some photos when i got home. The bike and kit was working perfect, and I never needed to take it off the middle switch 50A limiting (90A is the 3rd position).

Here's a video of the drives in action. Notice the little wobble on the primary, best I can tell is it's either the FWadapter or the sprocket itself (best i can tell)... but its not bad enough to bother me and it's the Ti JS, so i'm pretty sure that's still straight.

[youtube]QHmd9Gbv-2E[/youtube]

Side View:


Chainline, and all my cogs stacked/welded onto the dt-swiss:

repurposed derailleur as tensioner (widened the cage to fit the 3/16 chain):


Here's the bolt I added to keep the right side from shifting under torque. The torque brace keeps the kit from twisting, but my collars are trashed and i couldnt ever get this snug enough. I need a whole new JS sleeve and collars some day.

Here's my primary setup. alignment is key here, otherwise you'll hear the worst grinding noise. I have a little play on this side of the collar, but it's within acceptable range... sometimes I'll tighten or loosen it, but not recently. Notice the position of the motor sprocket. It's as flush as possible to the motor, that's the only way it would alight. This is another situation where being able to thread the JS sleeve to either side of the kit is key for alignment... but at this point this poor thing has been through hell and back. Once again, a new JS sleeve and lock rings needs to happen here. I'll work on making one once I get better on my lathe:


only riding trials for the rest of the week, but if I can sneak in a few laps i'll try to get some footage of this thing climbing under power. it's really nice, but I'm still hesitant to hammer it.. front end lifts pretty easily at 50A on the steeps. Let me know if this makes sense.

The only change I'd consider doing is to switch to a 1/8 chain and 16t rear to get a little more top speed and drop some weight... I just seriously doubt it would hold. Ideally, I'd like to run the 219 chain, you could really tune the gearing in. Someday I'll have a mill and will be able to make my own... with the right ratio and gear bite, you could get 40mph top speed and usable crawling speeds with this kit as a single speed.

has anyone ever played with one of these belts, strong enough for us?
http://www.gatescarbondrive.com/Products/OVERVIEW

Mike, race coming up in 2 weeks... shoot me an email!

 

[John Bozi]

thanks a lot for that.

Yes your primary wobble is the same as mine but your JS looks straight on the secondary. It makes it obvious my JS is bent probably at the tip.

I will have to have a closer look at my motor after work, did you drill a hole for that bolt to strengthen up the collar? or is there one hole free there?

I definately need that the tensioning on the swing arm, been doing my head in which way to go but that looks best. As for your rear sprocket thats a monster.

Does your swingarm bend or twist? Have you noticed the back wheel starting to lean closer left side of the swingarm?

My 7e8 chain barely fits past the motor as it is now, I can't imagine how 219 chain would fit unless going to a square tapered fat bike bb...

Thanks again.

 

[stonezone]

I have the chromo JS, so hopefully it's going to last. That bolt I added just fit in there. It might go through one of the holes on the innner lockring that just kind of floats there. All you really need to do is close off the potential for travel in the direction with the torque. When that happens, it's like a see-saw and torques the primary.

my rear hub is 150mm DT swiss. No' flex, no slipping on the freehub... It's 52lbs without the batteries, but man it feels solid. This is much closer to a dirtbike than a bicycle with the power and weight, but the way mike has his kit so low, you dont really notice the extra weight. I def like to pedal as much as possible, not just for fitness, more for balance.

I did a few wicked hills last night but we ran out of dark. I'll work on getting some uphill soon... hopefully the rainy pattern is slowing down.

Regardless, i'm going trials riding later... and here's some recent hawaiian eye candy.

 

[John Bozi]

Sensational pics man, if I ever went to Hawaii I am sure I'd track you down for a spin.

UPDATE

This afternoon I had the best results on the bike to date. Set to 30 amps, I concquered the stuff that was troubling earlier in one take. Got to the top flew down to the base on another trail and then back up to the top again on some seriously steep parts (still not the most most extreme I have done, but getting much closer) and then flew back down again. Frock that was fun! Used about 3.5ah. If I pedal more on the flats I can get some much needed exercise and get further out. Pedalling sitting down is sweet but standing up there is a bit of leg rub, I dont do it much so dont care.

Chain stayed on like a champion through very rocky 35kmh full throttle stuff.

NOt one skip, or oscillation on the power!!!!

Trully stoked.


Motor never hot and controller never hot.

 

[stonezone]

 

[John Bozi]

I looked for a meme to reply but nothing suitable sorry stonezone, but yeah it's the ebike grin.

I met up first time with "bunya" ES name yesterday. He was running a modded cyclone kit on 15s life 40a through gears.

Obviously he could go faster on longer flatter sections and slower with his 2 rings at front and 9 speeds at the back but most the time my 20 x 32t was optimal and there was no question I had more power on tap and could hammer the hills better by far even I was running 30a max it was enough to get up everything we attempted.

I am stoked to find someone I could show these trails off to and that appreciated them as the gem discovery they are. We did a main ride out from my place where he ran out of battery I still had a few ah left and then we recharged and did another side toward his ride home.

I probably did about 12 ah of riding yesterday and the chain didn't skip a beat and the motor or controller never got past warm.

I fell off the bike once due to traction coming down a very steep section with very deep 4wd ruts. My rear wheel slid in half way into the rut while my front wheel was still out and I managed to keep sliding downwards in a kind of full left turn drift for about 2 metres until I finally landed on my ass.

No video footage of the day unfortunately.

Has to be one the best afternoons I have had in a long time, when all the bike building woes were resolved and the goals were realised. A few beers before each ride just made it all the more liberating and making a new riding buddy to share slopes with just took the experience to as good as it will ever get.

There are heaps of things to tidy up on the bike especially the dancing chain, and R&R the cromo JS Mike has offered under warranty, but I am satisfied with overall performance for now.

Probably next thing I want to do is make some custom go pro mounts out of polymorph for different parts of the bike....

EDIT: 6am

thought I should add my CA settings which have worked without oscillations

Easy to remember 555

Uprate 5v/sec
fast rate 5v/sec
fast thrash 5a

Amp limiting
30a
100 gain

 

[stonezone]

Quality Meming takes some time, you'll get it just like your kit.... I think if you have the aptitude to overcome these type of issues, the end result is well worth it as opposed to get a plug and play kit... where's the challenge and reward, not to mention how this kit will chew up and spit out most everything that costs 4x the price.

your next goal is to keep everything working at 50A... and then unlimited.

nice work. I'll have a beer or 3 for you.

 

[John Bozi]

I love just adjusting on the CA my max amps.

Funny though, just when you need the most you shouldn't always use the most. I could smash some steep trails but they are easier to ride at lower power because at full throttle the grip is steady to maintain and as the motor starts to bog down you have all the lower speed to negotiate the path through the rough stuff.

That is cool about high voltage and lower amperage.

I planned to record the hardest sections but I smashed them in one take so well it was hard to turn back to record :wink:

Anyways here's a bit before I became impatient with recording vs having fun.

[youtube]2vIQVuOMWRs[/youtube]

 

[drew12345]

That's awesome John. Glad it's all working out.

 

[jk1]

Wow I didn't realise how noisy the LR kit is ?

Also why not run small block if you will only run 2.5kw ? due to the extra weight and width of the big block

 

[John Bozi]

Wow I didn't realise how noisy the LR kit is ?

Also why not run small block if you will only run 2.5kw ? due to the extra weight and width of the big block

I rode a cyclone recently and had one follow me. Sure it was quieter because it's reduction is inside but is sounded like mosquito. I was sure it was quieter but when I actually rode it was surprisingly louder than I thought. The primary chain on mine is the source of all sound which I am sure is much less with a belt.

Why not buy another motor? Have you thought about the cost of just buying a new motor every time you want to change something?

For one the weight I have never noticed. The heat is a non issue it would seem for the life of this kit. That is a dream come true. This is the thing I was sure to over tripple copensate for because I never want to deal with motor repairs again The cyclone was overheating and I was waiting for it to catch up on every hill. The guy running it believes the fins they sell are a gimmick because of the gap in the motor.

If I want to upgrade in the future I would have to buy a whole new kit. I don't need to upgrade, I have the most powerful possible already. I choose to extend my range and I choose to go for a short 6kw max or 2.5kw max shorter ride.

I choose to push the limits of bicycle components and look at how to customize them as the weakest links reappear. I prefer to ride the most powerful possible instead of half because the half has nowhere to go beyond its limit. Nobody I know of has pushed this thing to its limits and put in on tape (stonezone I am nudging right now)

I am interested in pioneering instead of listening to conservative ideas even if they are realistic views of what to do with my own money.

If you are the most psychic ebike rider / purchaser and builder in the world you may have known that the small block could handle my terrain continuously or if you developed an idea that most the advice I have gotten on this forum was false as I have you would follow your heart.

Ok now moving on.

UPDATE

After a few days of sensational riding my hub body has collapsed, it looks like a failed bearing and the lock nut for the hub body has taken quite a bit of beating with the bushing / spacer between the bearings.

I was happily surprised that the rachets / pawls / axle / splines that I thought would be the weakest links were not. However, having said this I am concerned with the size of the bearings. They don't look like they can handle the abuse of massive types of power this motor can dish out.

I am considering having two rear wheel sets and getting good at dealing with all the mechanics involved back there. Further down the line I reckon a custom solution may be on the cards.

For now the bike looks like it's offline for a minimum of two weeks while I wait for my lbs to get a new set of bearings at minimum and maximum a whole new hub body which if they do still make them would be pricey at around $150.

I am thinking of rear "hope" wheel back up....

 

[cheekybloke]

Do not get a Hope hub, get a second hand DT or a CK mate .
They have more manly engagement.
I have a spare CK 32h hub shell free if you want it to build up.
It has a few accidental drill marks (dont ask).
Pay the postage and its yours mate.
The" not so cheeky today" one

 

[John Bozi]

thanks for the offer Cheeky.

For now Id prefer something under a few hundred au to get me rolling if it will hold up.

these nuke proof complete wheels with my limited knowledge look okish. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/nukeproof-generator-dh-mtb-rear-wheel-2014/rp-prod89573

 

[stonezone]

I've had good luck with my DT Swiss.

 

[r3volved]

FYI - Don't do any cheap Shimano Deore hubs either...The XT rear hubs loosen up their cones under heavy torque - requires constant maintenance under e-power

 

[Leebolectric]

Plus one for DT Swiss...especially the 240s range...most load free hub mech on the market.
Next choice would be Hadley, industrial beef with high engagement (no website, only phone, LBS or BalleRacing)

Super stoked on watching this build come together John, I have a 951 I'm converting, and your issues have helped me a lot.
Thanks