Drivetrain Help for an upcoming ToSeven DM-01L Build

[Heloc]

Hi! Reasonably short time lurker, first time poster.

I was inspired by our boy @Chalo to build myself an e-bike. I've been in contact with ToSeven and expect to order a 1000w DM-01L kit from them in a month or so (they rate it at 160nm if that's relevant) and paired with their 54t chainring.

I bought a used Surly Pugsley intending to use it over the summer as an acoustic bike and then add a mid-drive kit when my budget allows (which is about now). The stock drivetrain was pretty worn and I hated the shifter so, so much. So I put a Deore M5100 11-51t drive train on it with an absolute black 38t oval chainring that's been great. But I don't believe it will be suitable for a 100w mid-drive motor. Additionally, I intend to routinely tow my kid on a WeeHoo trailer (like a recumbent tag-along) that weighs 35lbs plus up to 100lbs worth of kid.

So I've been looking at something to replace it that will go with the mid drive kit. I understand a 6,7,8 or 9 speed setups are usually more robust but I'm utterly lost trying to navigate all the many options. I've found a couple of Sunrace cassettes with an 11-40t range in 8 and 9 speed flavors that use steel sprockets on steel spiders that I think are a good bet. My understanding is that Shimano tends to be quality kit at most any level but figuring out which derailleur and shifter and chain to use is mind boggling and I'm certain that there are more companies than Shimano that make quality shift gear that would work with those Sunrace cassettes (or can/should I do better than those Sunrace cassettes?). I think I want to have fairly tall low gears in the 40-50 range for climbing hills with The Boy (you pronounce the capitalization when said out loud). There are a lot of trails around here that lead into a river valley with some long steepish grades that are very long (did I mention how long they are?) and I want to be able to hand panniers on it and/or a cargo trailer and take grocery shopping and stuff to replace so shorter car drives.

I've looked at the box 4-1 prime 9 stuff and found mixed reviews and it seems expensive. I like cheap and good (or at least high value) when I can get it and component weight isn't a major concern.

Can I get a little help? What else is relevant that I'm missing?

Thanks!

 

[Chalo]

Check out Microshift Acolyte (8 speed), Advent (9 speed) or Advent X (10 speed) cassettes. They're good and cheap. 10 speed should be fully compatible with Deore 10 speed shifter and derayray.

If I were sacrificing more drivetrain goodies to the mid drive gods, I'd go all in on an Acolyte 8 system with 12-42 or 12-46 cassette.

 

[Heloc]

Ah, I missed that detail. My current drivetrain is 11-speed. So I'd need a new shifter but do I necessarily need to replace the derailleur?

 

[Matze_Senpai]

i dont see any problems with 11 speed setup. i would run it for now, maybe get a brand new chain and see how long it lasts. then if you are disappointed you can swap drivetrain

 

[Chalo]

...Advent X (10 speed) cassettes. They're good and cheap. 10 speed should be fully compatible with Deore 10 speed shifter and derayray.

Sorry, I failed to notice that Deore 5100 was an 11 speed system. So it wouldn't have any compatible with 8, 9, or 10-speed cassettes the way 7-8-9 all can exchange certain components freely.

 

[Heloc]

i dont see any problems with 11 speed setup. i would run it for now, maybe get a brand new chain and see how long it lasts. then if you are disappointed you can swap drivetrain

NGL, I'm a little suspicious of this advice only because it's exactly what I want to hear! I thought I would be riding it as an acoustic bike for longer before converting 'cause the setup is only a couple of months old and I don't think I've put more than seventy five miles on it yet!

So I've been hoping that I could keep the 11spd deore on it to start so I can get some more value out of it while using the lower assistance levels while I learn to ride the thing and fiddle with settings (ToSeven is still working on refining the default settings and are engaged with their customers on the High Voltage discord server helping to work that stuff out and I'm happy to help).

The other option is to try to sell the current setup and replace it with something like the Microshift Acolyte line that @Chalo recommended (I've got all the bits in a cart right now, in fact). It's $125 with a KMS e8 chain which is pretty reasonable so it's not a huge loss to ditch the m5100 deore gear.

This has all been very helpful so far, thank you!


Back to lurk mode.

 

[brazilianboy]

Try to get as smaller chainring as Possible and as big Cassete as possible. Because you have many gears, you will be able to climb more and have high top speed all in one package without streessing the motor. Just use your gears wisely!

I hope you got a 60v battery. Mid drives are more efficient spinning fast!

 

[Chalo]

Try to get as smaller chainring as Possible and as big Cassete as possible.

That's a mistake if you have any intention of pedaling along with the motor.

I hope you got a 60v battery. Mid drives are more efficient spinning fast!

Actually, they're most efficient when they run under load at about 80% of their unloaded speed. If you raise the voltage, you make it less likely that you can get up into that speed range due to gross power limitations.

What I did with my mid drive was attach shorter cranks to make it easier to pedal fast. If I had raised the voltage, it would have become much more difficult to keep up with the motor in its most efficient speed range.

 

[raylo32]

Exactly. Even with 750W motors like TSDZ2 and Photon you can climb anything but get spun out on the flats wanting more gear inches.

That's a mistake if you have any intention of pedaling along with the motor.

 

[DanGT86]

I second the microshift recommendation. I run 9speed advent stuff with their clutch type derailleur. Never had a single issue with hard mtb riding. The 9Speed is available in 11-46. I would avoid the cassettes with the aluminum large cogs. The price is too good to be true.

 

[brazilianboy]

That's a mistake if you have any intention of pedaling along with the motor.



Actually, they're most efficient when they run under load at about 80% of their unloaded speed. If you raise the voltage, you make it less likely that you can get up into that speed range due to gross power limitations.

What I did with my mid drive was attach shorter cranks to make it easier to pedal fast. If I had raised the voltage, it would have become much more difficult to keep up with the motor in its most efficient speed range.

I personally use mostly thottle only, if I want to pedal I would just lower the power on the PAS Levels if that's an option on my Setup

 

[Heloc]

That's a mistake if you have any intention of pedaling along with the motor.

Yeah, I didn't realize I didn't realize I didn't lay out my use cases.

1. Exercise! I usually have about an hour and am currently targeting a 160bpm heartrate average. I average 12mph and there are more cool trails and things to see just out of my current range. So I want the motor to extend my range and smoothing out the hills so I can keep my HR in my target range and go a lot farther for the same effort.

2. All season errand runner (the idea is to run fat tires in the winter and plus size street/gravel tires in the spring/summer). A lot of throttle, a lot of speed and power. I'll figure out winter traction in due course, I know how to deal with winter.

3. Pulling a WeeHoo trailer with my kid on it. Like a tag-along but a recumbent. Kid and trailer is 70lbs now and can go as high as 135lbs. The tall side of the cassette will be important here for climbing hills with that load ('cause holy hell are long hills a mf'er with The Boy back there).

I was looking for a torque sensor mid-drive specifically because I plan to pedal along quite a bit. I'm pretty enamored with the bionic legs feeling torque sensors are suppose to have.

The motor is ordered now and will be here in about three weeks. My plan is to stick with the 11-spd deore. I'm pretty sure I had found examples on this very forum of people that successfully paired this same setup with a BBSHD (I looked through some browser history for something else and stumbled on some stuff like, "Oh yeah, I did do some research before I bought all that deore stuff!"

Then I've got a microshift cassette, shifter, and chain picked out for when that wears out/eats itself. If the chain will still fit through the derailleur I play to try keeping that or maybe replacing the jockey gears to accomodate the KMS e8 chain I have my eye on.

I've fitted a basic used set of shimano hydraulic brakes on the stock discs with plans to upgrade that to something like the Magura MT5 eStops or whatever the shimano competitor is, I just don't remember what it's called off.

 

[amberwolf]

FWIW, by the time the cassette/etc wears out, the chain will have worn out too, and probably the front sprocket(s), so you will likely want to replace them all at the same time.

 

[Heloc]

FWIW, by the time the cassette/etc wears out, the chain will have worn out too, and probably the front sprocket(s), so you will likely want to replace them all at the same time.

Yarp, this is the plan. I'll take that opportunity to fit a narrow-wide chainring. Then the chain and cassette will be both pretty robust and pretty cheap to replace when they wear out.

In a more perfect world I'd loot some small vehicle with a little 3-5spd gearbox and use #219 chain and sprockets to drive the wheels. Maybe input from the chainring on the right and output to the wheel on the left, idk. I kinda thought a shifter kart transmission would work but those appear to be integrated into the engine or something. But that's a project for later. I'm starting slow...both literally and metaphorically.