E-Bike Racing: 2011 World Challenge

John in CR said:
I guess it never crossed my mind that someone would come up with the great idea, and volunteer another country to host it.

That's either the genius of it, or the bare faced cheek. Seriously though, most of the potential entrants are in the US, and it means that I've volunteered to get myself and a bike across the Atlantic.

If you do want to come over here, then I'm sure we can find some venues. We just had a tug race at my local airfield. The idea is that all the people with aircraft tugs had to race them for charity. The definition of a tug was pretty loose, though, so I got to take a hovercraft up and down the runway. I must dig out some pictures.

The point is that there is a large area of tarmac near where I live, the owner of which is open to ideas about how to have fun.

Nick
 
Aircraft tug racing is about like hospital bed racing. Fun yes, but I think the guys are taking things quite a bit more serious as real motorsport racing, and that 70lb limit is going have some very fast bikes. I don't think you can go lower though, because then the large hub motors for bikes would be excluded. If that happens you might as well forget the pedals and call it the microlight e-moto challenge.
 
Hi, I am a newby here with a couple of questions. Bikes I know with a huge history of repairs and a few custom frame builds. I also drive a really slow electric car. The seventy pound weight limit could be broken down like this. The donor bike should be about 25lbs. If it is much more or less you either spent way to much or little on the donor cycle. Suspension is just as silly as carbon fiber. The bike could be bmx,road,or mountain style. Hopefully all would be tried and compared. About 10lbs could be allocated to RC motors and controllers. Am I way off here? I know hub motors weigh more, but this is a race and the idea is to win! That leaves about 35lbs for batteries. Lets say 5lbs of the battery allocation is wasted in mounting hardware. That leaves 30lbs of Lipo.

So, how much energy is in 30lbs of Lipo? What is the best guess of energy use per mile? I think the goal would be to be running out of power crossing the finish line with a melted motor! Ok, from a cost and fun basis a little more durability would be better.

What you guys call a Lycra can sustain 500 to 700 watts of power for quite awhile. With a 12.5 mile/ 20 K race is pedaling just a non issue on an optimized 70lb bike?

Thanks, Brad
 
Pedaling would definitely be a non issue if you can corner a go cart track at 40 mph. But in the death race lots of the slower bikes did take advantage of pedaling out of the corners, for just a few pumps. The winner did not pedal that I saw. So yeah, pedaling may be a moot point for a really competitive bike.

In the 2010 death race I pedaled the whole way, hoping not to kill my pingbattery. But I only had about 30 mph top speed. Pedaling got me across the finish with out being quite dead last.

You will slow down as your battery voltage drops, so really you would want to hit the end of the race with some left. Or a guy who had higher voltage than you at the end might take you on the final straight to the flag. I was actually wondering about some kind of switch, to add one more battery in series toward the end of the race. keep the voltage up to the end that way. But just having the weight down should allow you to carry plenty to keep the voltage up.

30 pounds of lipo ought to be plenty, but that would depend on the amps you use. Enough amps, and you'd go through it much faster. On my death race bike, I expect to be carrying less than 20 pounds of battery. Or less if I have less money. :lol:
 
I currently have 16 lbs of lipo so 32 would be 24s 20 amp hour or 1.7 Kw of total energy with the turnigy packs I run. :mrgreen: Unfortunaly I am already to heavy!
 
Arlo1 said:
I currently have 16 lbs of lipo so 32 would be 24s 20 amp hour or 1.7 Kw of total energy with the turnigy packs I run. :mrgreen: Unfortunaly I am already to heavy!

Ok, so lets say that you want to leave a little power in the pack at the finish line. Just to make the math real easy lets say 1.25 KWH of usable energy for a 12.5 mile race yields an average of 100 WH per mile. But racing on a cart track is not steady state running. It is all full on or hard braking. Is regenerative braking going to make a difference? Is it possible? To average 100WH per mile how big a motor and controller can be used? There must be a point where a bigger motor and controller is moot because the battery cannot feed them for the entire 12.5 miles. 5Kw, 10Kw, 12Kw or 20 Kw how big is too big?

My noob guess would go like this. 40mph average to win, times 100WH/mile equals 4000 W of continues power. Double that to handle burst of acceleration yields an 8K motor. Lots of room for error here.



Thanks, Brad
 
bradstuff said:
Arlo1 said:
I currently have 16 lbs of lipo so 32 would be 24s 20 amp hour or 1.7 Kw of total energy with the turnigy packs I run. :mrgreen: Unfortunaly I am already to heavy!

Ok, so lets say that you want to leave a little power in the pack at the finish line. Just to make the math real easy lets say 1.25 KWH of usable energy for a 12.5 mile race yields an average of 100 WH per mile. But racing on a cart track is not steady state running. It is all full on or hard braking. Is regenerative braking going to make a difference? Is it possible? To average 100WH per mile how big a motor and controller can be used? There must be a point where a bigger motor and controller is moot because the battery cannot feed them for the entire 12.5 miles. 5Kw, 10Kw, 12Kw or 20 Kw how big is too big?

My noob guess would go like this. 40mph average to win, times 100WH/mile equals 4000 W of continues power. Double that to handle burst of acceleration yields an 8K motor. Lots of room for error here.



Thanks, Brad
Regen gives me 10-12% further battery life but.... It adds heat to the motor using the motor for a brake! On the other hand I rely on it to stop me fast because the v brakes are not neer enough to slow me down.
Running hard on the streat I have seen 75 wh per km thats 120 wh per mile and thats just on the streat! On a kart track I will be more around 120 wh/km Im betting! Now keeping the motor as cool as posible will help as well as making me and my bike lighter and I run with a 120 % setting that advances the timing at around 50 km/h so that adds heat and losses eficentcy but.....
so In the end I need more lipo and I need to only eat rice cakes for a year and drill holes all over my bike then I Will win!
 
Just hitting 40 in a short stretch before the next corner will be hard, let alone averaging 40 mph. On the track in Tucson, most of the corners were pretty tough to take at 30 mph, let alone faster. Building the bike fast and light is a real tough challenge for a hubmotor. The RC motor guys will have an advantage for sure. But riding it fast is the other 90%.

I just finally ordered a few more lipo's so I'll be able to report soon on how far I can go on 20s 10 ah with my bike. 5 ah only got me about 3 miles so the racing type accelerations are pretty harsh. Hopefully halving the c rate will have some range extending effect.

Even if you end up being slow in the corners, you'll still have the time of your life though. :twisted: Even a bike with a 30 mph top speed was pretty dang fun on a kart track last spring.
 
Arlo1 said:
Running hard on the streat I have seen 75 wh per km thats 120 wh per mile and thats just on the streat! On a kart track I will be more around 120 wh/km Im betting! Now keeping the motor as cool as posible will help as well as making me and my bike lighter and I run with a 120 % setting that advances the timing at around 50 km/h so that adds heat and losses eficentcy but.....
so In the end I need more lipo and I need to only eat rice cakes for a year and drill holes all over my bike then I Will win!


Thanks for some real world numbers. My guesses where not toooo far off. What motor, controller and wattage do you use? Maybe pedaling is necessary just to allow the battery to last to the finish line?
 
Just ran across this thread.

It looks like the poster of its second message thinks that likening something to the Special Olympics sets the bar laughably low.

How sadly mistaken.

Take it from someone who has watched his kid compete in the Special Olympics: you have no idea how high you've set the bar... :D
 
bradstuff said:
Arlo1 said:
Running hard on the streat I have seen 75 wh per km thats 120 wh per mile and thats just on the streat! On a kart track I will be more around 120 wh/km Im betting! Now keeping the motor as cool as posible will help as well as making me and my bike lighter and I run with a 120 % setting that advances the timing at around 50 km/h so that adds heat and losses eficentcy but.....
so In the end I need more lipo and I need to only eat rice cakes for a year and drill holes all over my bike then I Will win!


Thanks for some real world numbers. My guesses where not toooo far off. What motor, controller and wattage do you use? Maybe pedaling is necessary just to allow the battery to last to the finish line?
Peddling will not be an option! My bike always travels faster then you can peddle and it would be a waste even if it had road bike type gearing because Im usaly trying to keep the front end on the ground.
I have a BMX with 16 x 2.5 moped tires that mesure 21 inches on the o.d., and a 18 fet methods controler built by me. (no idea how its still working) 24s 10 ah lipo and a x5304 I weight 225 right now.
 
Arlo1 said:
Peddling will not be an option! My bike always travels faster then you can peddle and it would be a waste even if it had road bike type gearing because Im usaly trying to keep the front end on the ground.
I have a BMX with 16 x 2.5 moped tires that mesure 21 inches on the o.d., and a 18 fet methods controler built by me. (no idea how its still working) 24s 10 ah lipo and a x5304 I weight 225 right now.


I am new here and NOT trying to argue. And my only electric experience is with my really sucky 1995 Dodge Caravan. But,, running within the rules of the race I would kick your ass with my old non motorized road bike. I figure you would be out of battery at about 6 miles which would give me plenty of time to catch up and pass you. :p I guess my point is that battery capacity will limit power usage. Is this limit so low that the 500 watts a pair of legs can put out could make a difference?

Brad
 
Brad,

You're on the right lines with your estimates of power, batteries, etc.

A max weight limits battery capacity, which in turn limits power. So very high power motors aren't a useful option. When the bike is running at high speed the pedal effort a rider can put in isn't worth much. But there could be certain points, such as the start, or accelerating away from corners, where pedalling makes a difference.

I don't think you would stand a chance without a motor and relying entirely on pedalling though.

Nick
 
DaveSpicer, (sorry, off topic here)

No one is putting down our 'Never say quit even when obstacles are real kids' here. The context of this forum is a free exchange of ideas and the way folks speak those ideas is as invigorating as freedom.

I spent the summer in the free state of Alabama. Met a lady in the mall bookstore who told me she just had a talk with her son who lived in California, as I do. She told me that he had just finished a 50 mile bike ride then he and his friends sat around talking about how to lessen the consumption of corn sweetner of Californians. Mom told him he had been out in CA too long and needed to get back around real people. She said he thought about it and replied, "You're right Mom."

I love the ideas here, whether it's technical or how to stop dogs from biting as you ride. I enjoy what our innovators say on this primarily technical forum. They come from all over the globe and varied eco/ed/socio niches. Everyone brings a vastly different background to their style of communicating. It''s admirable to hear how anyone and everyone strives to overcome present day limitations.

Retired elementary teacher
SoSauty

My math shows 44V 12S 15AHr should take me 9 miles and 20AHr about a dozen miles at Tucson. But I've never used lipo and it may Christmas or Valentine's 'fore I know 'real' numbers. My setup looks now to be an RC Astro 3210 if I can cobble it together (Novice to Matt) :? My bike plan is for a "feather weight single speed package." Read that a 6wind A3210 operated generally 4500-7500rpm, 75A continous & 100A burst but someone over at Astro stated that the motor would handle 100A for just a few secs. Soo. . . feeding the little Astro max 80A may result in 100Wh/mi. My numbers are lower and very subjective.

Hmmm 'regen' wins the race :|

Me thinks it'll come in at 50lbs including lipos;
Prophetic prophecy; in 2 years the 70lb e-racers will evolve into electric crotch rockets :!:
 
You guys keep throwing out hilarious things to quote,
"...just as silly as carbon fiber."
"...high power motors aren't a useful option."

Minimizing weight in any way possible to maximize power and battery capacity is valid for anyone wanting to win. A few weeks ago I did some 10.5 mile runs mostly WOT and averaged 61wh/mile averaging right at 50mph. That was running only a moderate power controller and a bit over 3kw average power. We're talking about 250lb me and 120lb of cargo ebike with a back rest sticking up in the wind like a small parachute.

On my race bike, which has the same motor, I've already trimmed more than enough weight to pay for my missing parts and the controller, so as it stands now it can carry 22lbs of batteries. That tells that without buying crazy expensive batteries, and having a battery capacity cushion of 15-20% that I can run the bike at 100wh/mi average. With regen braking and average speeds well under 50mph, 100wh/mi is some fairly serious performance.

Anyone who thinks there's any possibility that any pedalist could hang with 250lb me using 50wh/mile, much less 100wh/mile, just doesn't understand the facts. When I put someone at half my weight or less on the bike then 100wh/mi gets into the performance range where it's going to come down to rider skill, because we're past the limits of traction.

Before the RC motor crowd gets too rambunctious thinking they get all this extra battery capacity over hub motor guys since their motors weigh a lot less, they need to add up all the weight of reductions, sprockets, motor mounts, and hubs. Then there's the biggie...no regen braking. Oops this racing just got interesting, especially since any advantage they have due to gearing from 0-20 is non-existent. Add in all the potential for break downs, and my money's on the hubbies, but Arlo you gotta lengthen that wheelbase so wheelie avoidance isn't your focus.

John
 
RULES CLARIFICATION PLEASE

I think the competition will be too close to permit it, but pit stops for battery swaps are legal aren't they?
 
John in CR said:
RULES CLARIFICATION PLEASE

I think the competition will be too close to permit it, but pit stops for battery stops are legal aren't they?

Depends what you mean. Pit stops to recharge a battery, change a tyre, tighten spokes, change your underwear, etc could be allowed as an option. But if you want to swap a battery, then all the batteries used in the race would have to be included in the weight limit.

Nick
 
I must admit I am totaly enjoying all the exchange regarding what it will take to make a winning combination.

There are sooo many factors in "limbo" at this time there is no way to compile anything that would resemble the winning bike. & I do beleive a superior bike is going to be the deciding factor at the 1st few events.
If the chosen track is ultra tight, a slow accelerating hub motor will be at a huge disadvantage. My focus ATM is building a bullet proof rc drive with a controller system that will allow extream flexibility in gearing for the track. I will make it as fast as the components will allow....or only as fast as I am comfortable riding. Hopefully that will be well withing the durability range of the fragille RC systems.

I have commited to 20" wheels for my build (death race bike-& hopefully World challange Bike) I have not bit the bullet for a carbon frame (yet) but it is easily in my skillset. By my estimate I can have a rolling frame with power plant/3speed reduction & 1 or 2 motors well under the weight limits....with a steel frame....I have some aluminum prospects on e-bay right now :wink: Biggest factor affecting weight will be the decision to include rear suspension.

I am so looking foward to seeing all the bikes come together & see what really performs under stress. Oh yea, anytime anyone wants to pull over & change batterys in a 12 mile race I am participating in, I am all for it!
(I will not be stopping unless I am picking up the bike after sliding off the track!) Keep it coming!

Remeber if this is a weekend gathering there will be all kinds of fun stuff going on, A wheelie contest, drag racing. a little dirt tracking would be a blast, imprompt'o trials contest & all maner of general mayhem if LFP is involved I am sure. :mrgreen:
right now its build for the deathrace....
 
Thud said:
If the chosen track is ultra tight, a slow accelerating hub motor will be at a huge disadvantage.

I've never seen a gokart track other than the silly rental place type stuff. If there's numerous hairpin turns requiring speeds of 10mph or less, then yes, there would be a disadvantage, but otherwise then I believe you have a wrong impression. We're still talking about single gear electric motors and unless the hubbie just has the wrong size wheel, any difference should be offset by the ability to regen if comparable power is on tap. To me Dogman has the biggest advantage, since he's out there practicing already. If we could get him on a high powered rig, I'd put him as the favorite unless there's experienced 2 wheel racers among us.

My biggest concern is someone getting hurt, because after seeing the videos Dogman provided from the Motorized Bike National Championship, I have little doubt that even with a 70lb limit bike that the high powered electrics will have more speed and a lot more acceleration than I saw in those races. My heavy cargo bike using a moderate controller with heavy me aboard out performs all but maybe the top few bikes in that field. That's why we were so exited to have Thud going to Ohio to show up the gasser boys. Too bad prep time came up just a hair short.

Unless some big power to weight advantage crops up with a really small rider who knows how to race it should be quite competitive in the high powered group, because I think it's going to come down to the riding more than the bike because a number of bikes will be capable of more than the track will permit.

John
 
John in CR said:
Then there's the biggie...no regen braking.

any difference should be offset by the ability to regen if comparable power is on tap

John

And why can't RC use Regen???????? Many examples of RC running brick controllers, just need to not use a frewheel.

Granted not usually with an RC ESC, but even then, I think Matt confirmed that RC ESC braking is regen.
 
John in CR said:
You guys keep throwing out hilarious things to quote,
"...just as silly as carbon fiber."
"...high power motors aren't a useful option."

Geeze John, I am the new kid on the block but Tiberius has more racing experience than anyone. I feel like a politician quoted out of context. After you called our comments hilarious you went on to agree with them :!:

John in CR said:
Minimizing weight in any way possible to maximize power and battery capacity is valid for anyone wanting to win.

But spending thousands on carbon fiber for minimal gains in an electric bicycle race is silly!


John in CR said:
A few weeks ago I did some 10.5 mile runs mostly WOT and averaged 61wh/mile averaging right at 50mph. That was running only a moderate power controller and a bit over 3kw average power. We're talking about 250lb me and 120lb of cargo ebike with a back rest sticking up in the wind like a small parachute.

Your numbers are way different than Arlo's. At 61 wh/mile you will finish with battery power to spare. But your 3kw motor is not a "very high power motors aren't a useful option" . A motor that drains the battery half way through the race is useless. So you agree with Tiberius that a moderately powered motor is enough to be competitive.

John in CR said:
On my race bike, which has the same motor, I've already trimmed more than enough weight to pay for my missing parts and the controller, so as it stands now it can carry 22lbs of batteries. That tells that without buying crazy expensive batteries,

So you will not spend big bucks for crazy expensive batteries but crazy expensive carbon fiber is ok? See you agree with what you called hilarious.


John in CR said:
and having a battery capacity cushion of 15-20% that I can run the bike at 100wh/mi average. With regen braking and average speeds well under 50mph, 100wh/mi is some fairly serious performance.

John in CR said:
Anyone who thinks there's any possibility that any pedalist could hang with 250lb me using 50wh/mile, much less 100wh/mile, just doesn't understand the facts.

I did not say that. I said I could pedal pass Arlo's current bike after his batteries are dead with half the race left. Classic tortoise and the hare story.

John in CR said:
When I put someone at half my weight or less on the bike then 100wh/mi gets into the performance range where it's going to come down to rider skill, because we're past the limits of traction.

Yes there is always a limit. Your numbers suggest that the limit is traction and skill, Arlo's power usage shows that battery capacity is his limit.

John in CR said:
Before the RC motor crowd gets too rambunctious thinking they get all this extra battery capacity over hub motor guys since their motors weigh a lot less, they need to add up all the weight of reductions, sprockets, motor mounts, and hubs. Then there's the biggie...no regen braking. Oops this racing just got interesting, especially since any advantage they have due to gearing from 0-20 is non-existent. Add in all the potential for break downs, and my money's on the hubbies, but Arlo you gotta lengthen that wheelbase so wheelie avoidance isn't your focus.

John

Nothing like a new kid to liven things up :p

Brad
 
Bradstuff, in the interest of liveliness I'll respond.

Just because carbon fiber bikes cost thousands doesn't mean carbon fiber cost for a bike is anywhere near that. I know someone with enough CF for dozens of bikes that he paid low hundreds for, so if I wanted to go that route I could do it economically. If I was serious about the racing and would spends thousands on a trip to do it, then I'd obviously have no problem spending plenty on my vehicle anyway. I just don't believe in spending high prices on batteries, because the prices are declining so fast, especially the high power Lipo that will be needed for this racing, since A123's don't have good enough gravimetric energy density to be a real contender with a 70lb weight limit.

I have confidence that Arlo will budget his energy accordingly, though his numbers and DocBass's numbers (10kw to run at 100kph), tell me there's some big energy waste going on with those X5's at extreme power...stator saturation maybe. If he runs out of juice before the end, then he just didn't pay attention to his CA, which I believe is unlikely.

My measly 3kw continuous would be more like bursts of 6-7kw under acceleration and then slowing down and getting some back through regen on the short curvy track. It's not stop and go, so the motor should stay at or close to it's prime efficiency band of operation, though there will be some efficiency hit, but a lot of my 64% increase to get to 100wh/mi will go directly to performance...maybe even more since less will be given up to the wind. For mine 100wh/mi should definitely include 10kw bursts. That 3kw average continuous was just with my fairly tame controller on my cargo/schoolbus bike, not a race bike controller.

I've shown that I can fit a high power hub motor and almost 10kg of batteries on a bike that comes in within the 70lb limit. 10kg of Lipo gets you 1.4-1.5kwh of capacity for 50-60cents/wh from Hobby City. At 100wh/mile a 12.4 mile race only requires 1.24kwh, leaving a nice cushion. Have you ever ridden a 70lb ebike at 100wh/mile other than maybe bogged down going up a steep hill? I can assure you that 100wh/mi will be up way high in the fun department.

We can even break it down a different way, and call the average speed 35mph, which of course will depend on the track, but probably isn't too far off from what's possible on the Spooky Tooth track...20-25 in the curves and 45-50 on the straights. At 35 avg the 12.4 mile race will take 21.5 minutes. That's works out to an average continuous power of 3.5kw to use 1.24kwh, but once you consider that you'll really be under hard acceleration maybe 25-30% of the time, then it's easy to see how a 10kw max power bike can run in this race, and finish. That's before considering significant portions of that energy required for acceleration can be recovered during braking.

One thing I can guarantee is that little commuter type ebike that Tiberius pedal assisted to victory in the UK isn't going to cut it in 2011. :mrgreen:

I wish there was some way to get the gas consumption of some of the top competitors in the 2010 races at Spooky Tooth, so we could try to back into the energy requirements they used for comparative purposes.

John
 
Ok so
#1 I already have carbon fiber on my bike! I build it my self its not cheep but not to expensive
#2 You have any idea how many times I will lap your ass before running out of batteries? I will have no problem peddling the last little bit to finish! :mrgreen:
#3 I have alot of race experiance too so there will be no problem pushing my bike to the limits! (In fact I was racing a dwarf car tonight)
#4 I have a secont bmx just given to me proly make it a rc bike! So I can have both to win on which ever I want
I will see you guys there! 8)
 
Don't anybody bet too much money on me to win. :lol: Once I get fast, I still have to stay on the thing till the end. Building a fast bike that finishes without breaking is 10% of the problem. Having the balls to enter those corners fast is another 30%, and exiting those corners still on the track and right side up is the last 60%. We've only seen that I can handle those corners slow so far. To be really fast, I'll be drifting through the corners and that is something I haven't practiced in years.

No word on any Tucscon racing this fall, but I'm still hoping they do another halloween race. Soon as I get 10 ah of 20s, I can simulate the track out at a parking lot. It's been too hot to wear all the protective gear all summer, so I haven't been doing anything but dirt riding for months. It definitely takes practice for me to be comfy on a sharp corner at 30 mph.
 
Hey Arlo, LFP, and other experienced racers, here's a couple of questions for you:

For those without regen braking, will bike disc rotors hold up for this kind of racing, because it seems like they'll get pushed many times beyond what they'd ever see in their designed use? Should we really be looking at dual rotors on the front?

Body armor, we see motorcycle racers hit the ground a lot and get right up. If you have all the equipment, does falling so you don't get hurt require practice, or does riding armor keep you pretty darn safe as long as you don't tangled up with someone else?
 
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