E-Bike Racing: 2011 World Challenge

[Tiberius]

Don't forget its 1000watt max output event for the e-bikes next year chaps...according to Safe

KiM

Hi KiM,

I suppose there could be a "safe" and an "unsafe" class .

But if you want a class/formula with restricted power/speed/cost/whatever there's a better and simpler way to do it. Just have a standard battery pack. At the beginning of the season, each competitor puts up the cost of a battery. The organisers do all the charging, etc and hand out the packs for each race.

A standard battery pack limits the total energy available for the race, so its not quite the same as power output limit, but it does a similar thing. Another advantage is that people with high power motors can also enter, but they will have to be careful with the throttle in order to finish.

Nick

Prolly another formula the Brits would win.

 

[REdiculous]

Wouldn't that require each racer to buy a battery that they may not need/want otherwise...? no thx. later

 

[RWP]

Just to make a bid for So Cal:
http://www.jimhallkartracing.com/track/index.html
I will give Mr Hall a call to see if there is any interest.

Luke's place definitely sounds great.

Maybe I will have to make a race bike for this event, now that I will have a shop to work in, as I'm moving to a place with a two car garage.
I know a small moto rider, friend of friend, who might just love to kick some A$$

 

[coln72]

But if you want a class/formula with restricted power/speed/cost/whatever there's a better and simpler way to do it. Just have a standard battery pack. At the beginning of the season, each competitor puts up the cost of a battery. The organisers do all the charging, etc and hand out the packs for each race.

A standard battery pack limits the total energy available for the race, so its not quite the same as power output limit, but it does a similar thing. Another advantage is that people with high power motors can also enter, but they will have to be careful with the throttle in order to finish.

Nick

Prolly another formula the Brits would win.

Sounds like your Greenpower competition with a standard battery for all competitors

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'd like to toss out a couple of ideas into the mix. A while back there was a race series called the "Can-Am" (ostensibly the Canadian-American) and it had almost no rules at all. In contrast to the TransAm series which limited displacement to 5.0 liters, so it ended up being a series with street-legal Mustangs and Camaros using high-compression V-8s (305 cubic inches max?)

The Trans-Am was quite popular, as the type of cars racing were similar to what real people could buy. The Can-Am had almost no rules in order to encourage innovation. After just a few years the Can Am was cancelled due to low viewership. It had become dominated by a long margin with cutting-edge Porsches that were very advanced. It was a case of the guy with the most money always won. No viewers...no series.

I think it would be good to have two E-bike race-series. One might be very open to allow hot-rodders to show off the cutting-edge stuff (great publicity for E-bikes)...but there might be a benefit to having some restrictions on the main series.

A sponsor might be found who can supply a pile of Ping lithium battery packs that are somewhat small and all identical. 48V and their small size would limit the C-rate of amp-output, and it would also limit their range. This way, an efficient set-up would be able to compete with a big motor (think turbo 4-cylinder vs 426-Hemi). The packs would be cycled and balanced several times under controlled conditions, and then each competitor would pick up a random pack after drawing a number. That way the batteries would be guaranteed to all be the same.

Some guy might show up with a 2-Wheel-Drive bike using Crystalyte 530X's and a shit-load of LiPo's. Fun to see what that would do in the unlimited class (great You-Tube?), but it would not advcance the art of E-bikes, or encourage variety. Just some thoughts...

 

[REdiculous]

I don't think there's a good way to make a "standard pack" that will fit every bike...

I know it's atypical but I'm running a 12v system so I'd be disqualified on that alone? And if you made a concession for me and I can't afford a new battery that I don't need otherwise I'm disqualified for that instead?

I think it's better to stick w/ the 1kw limit and maybe break the SLA group off so they have fun too...

I'd race some 500w SLA bikes for fun...as long as the course is only 2 miles long I think I could compete. :lol: later

 

[AussieJester]

I think it's better to stick w/ the 1kw limit and maybe break the SLA group off so they have fun too...

Weeell I was saving money to fly to a round of the MotoGP but this ^^^ sounds more
exciting can i reserve a front row seat to watch the 1000watt SLA class "battle"
it out? :lol:

I would have thought anyone that had the slightest interest in this e-bike racing
would be the high h.p members with lots a batteries and big frock motors or high end non frock
setups with loads of lipos and big h.p rc motors? 1000watt SLA equipped bikes
if anything would be detrimental to the whole e-bike movement IMO people are used
to seeing race vehicles at the upper echelon of technical development not the
lower end. Racing should IMHO be unlimited its run a private course
i think most want to see how fast they can go and if they can beat their fellow competitors
in speed not efficiency. If you want a realistic limit though cap it at 6kw you can
have some fun with that power, 1kw though i would prefer to watch grass grow or paint dry
it would be more entertaining....and quicker

KiM

 

[REdiculous]

Here in the states it's not an ebike unless it's 1kw or less...feds say 750w, some states differ...but I think 1kw is still the highest.

6kw is a bit beyond that so you're not really doing anything for "ebikes" by running 6kw...except giving people false impressions, perhaps.

edit..don't take this post the wrong way please! 6kw is sick and I'd love to have that power..it's just not legal here so I think having an "ebike" race where 6kw is normal would lead people to believe that 6kw ebikes are also normal/legal. later

 

[Demosthenes]

If it's in Seattle I should be able to make it. I would have to get my passport, but that's not hard. The only difficulty I see is how do I commute down on my commuter bike (I've got enough battery), but bring my racing ridiculously overpowed as of yet not built bike down as well? (I'm driver's license less so I can't do it in a car.) Sadly, if you limit it to 1000 watts both my bikes are out of the running right there. My commuter peaks at close to 2000.

 

[AussieJester]

edit..don't take this post the wrong way please! 6kw is sick and I'd love to have that power..it's just not legal here so I think having an "ebike" race where 6kw is normal would lead people to believe that 6kw ebikes are also normal/legal. later

Think you will find 6kw+ ebikes are alot more 'normal' on this forum than you think buddy
Whats legal on the road makes no difference on the race track either, you want to putt around on SLA fuelled 1000watt
walmart bikes go for it, the e-bike 'racing scene' will last as long as a Sunday roast. Racing is MEANT to
push the envelope, in most forms of motorsport the boundaries are pushed this results in the technology
trickling down to the 'public' If members can belt around a track and break components they soon
figure out how to make them reliable, this is where Joe Public benefits, new better technology is developed..../my2c

KiM

 

[REdiculous]

I agree, 6kw is more normal here but I think we should agree to disagree on the power needed for a fun race...

A 2HP pocket bike can do 35mph w/ a 200lb rider pretty easy so I see no reason for 8HP on a bicycle. That's not an ebike race, it's a contest to see who who has the biggest balls and who can spend the most money. :lol:

 

[Thud]

deJe'vou...all over again.

 

[AussieJester]

I agree, 6kw is more normal here but I think we should agree to disagree on the power needed for a fun race...

Fair enough...having limited my bike output using my Fecther throttle interface so i was not going above 1000watt
on the Turnigy meter i have seen how "fun" it is running 1000watt...i'll pass thanks :wink:

KiM

 

[REdiculous]

Fair enough...having limited my bike output using my Fecther throttle interface so i was not going above 1000watt
on the Turnigy meter i have seen how "fun" it is running 1000watt...i'll pass thanks

If your system is designed for 6kw..turning the amp limit down won't change the gearing. later

 

[AussieJester]

Fair enough...having limited my bike output using my Fecther throttle interface so i was not going above 1000watt
on the Turnigy meter i have seen how "fun" it is running 1000watt...i'll pass thanks

If your system is designed for 6kw..turning the amp limit down won't change the gearing. later

My cruiser is way under geared for the 6kw built for hill climb and acceleration thus it is perfect for the
1000watt output, if i ran a high gearing for 80km/hr top speeds on 6kw i would agree
it wouldnt be good, but its not, it tops oput under 50 clicks on the old gearing.
its just boring as bat shit to ride a 1000watt e-bicycle and would be laughable on a race track IMHO.
As you say though, we can agree to disagree and shall see just how many 1000watt racers
assemble at the event next year, i'll donate 50 bucks to ES if we see double figure numbers
in the 1000watt class riding at Spooky Tooth race next year....as the saying goes, my money
is safe as houses, i doubt we will see more than 6.

KiM

 

[REdiculous]

Gotcha on the gearing..cool. Mine's geared for 62mph, though I doubt the 1.5kw I could potentially feed the motor would actually get me there. later

 

[RWP]

How about two classes.
A 1000w class and an unlimited class (or 6Kw) class...or

 

[Tiberius]

We're in danger here of getting sidetracked with this talk of classes.

The suggested rules of working pedals, 70 lbs max weight, 12.5 mile distance, don't necessarily lead to an "unlimited" class with overblown budgets.

Those simple rules ensure its an e-bike rather than an electric motorcycle. That in itself keeps it manageable and accessible for most of us. There is a limit to how much battery you can carry within the weight limit, so that stops people installing insanely powered motors.

Also, to show that its about skill and ability rather than deep pockets, I said I would only get a one way ticket for my bike and we can auction it for charity afterwards.

One way some motorsports try to limit budgets is with a rule that the winner (or anyone) must accept a fixed price offer from anyone else for his vehicle.

If people do want another class/formula, with different limits, then think carefully about the reasons for it, and then the practicalities, the likely take up and the spectator interest. Is the reason to focus on a particular aspect of the technology, to get more entrants, to give out more prizes or to have a fun race? Let's decide on what it is to achieve before we get bogged down in the details.

Nick

 

[REdiculous]

I think a slightly higher weight limit (100lbs? I dunno) would be nice for folks stuck on SLAs. later

 

[liveforphysics]

I think a slightly higher weight limit (100lbs? I dunno) would be nice for folks stuck on SLAs. later

F-this multi-class, multi-rule BS.

The rules for everything are:

1. Under 70lbs.

2. Powered by electricity.

3. Gotta be able to complete the course distance. (obviously)

 

[swbluto]

The 70 lb. weight limit is NO FAIR! That gives RC-motors/Outrunners a really unfair advantage since powerful hubbies would have to pack much less battery.

 

[REdiculous]

My bike+trailer is already 10lbs over the limit. Maybe it's just the trailer you'd count...though that would be a special rule...so, no, it won't work that way...

A 70lb limit means it's a race for people that can afford decent batteries and everyone else can stay away.

If that's the goal, ok. whatever

 

[gogo]

How about bike weight allowed = (rider weight/2) ?

Some of us Americans need what amounts to a small motorcycle to support our fat asses.

 

[PedalingBiped]

I'm with Luke,
This should be a potlatch. everybody should just come and have fun. I would love to have my ass beat but some one with a 100v system.

I would like to see all the different bikes and how they were made.

My concern would be the race length. I went with a friend to a amateur motor cross endurance race. First time on an ice bike in a long time. At the 20 mile mark, I was done. I had to ride another 12 miles to finish. I was bored.

For fun we should keep the races short, 5 - 10 laps or so on a track or just a few miles. We can make decisions on the fly on who would race in what heat, based on what we saw in previous heats. Therefore separating the wheat from the chaff

The whole thing should be about fun and camaraderie.
The big rule would be how many beers you can have between heats.

I live a few miles from Luke and have an spare bedroom and a living room floor. It might be possible that I could score a box truck with lift gate for logistics. The boss already Ok's personal use.

 

[liveforphysics]

Whoa. Whoa.

This must be the welfare generation or something. You guys are nuts.

A 70lb limit means it's a race for people that can afford decent batteries and everyone else can stay away.

The 70 lb. weight limit is NO FAIR! That gives RC-motors/Outrunners a really unfair advantage since powerful hubbies would have to pack much less battery.

I think a slightly higher weight limit (100lbs? I dunno) would be nice for folks stuck on SLAs. later

I agree, 6kw is more normal here but I think we should agree to disagree on the power needed for a fun race...

A 2HP pocket bike can do 35mph w/ a 200lb rider pretty easy so I see no reason for 8HP on a bicycle. That's not an ebike race, it's a contest to see who who has the biggest balls and who can spend the most money. :lol:

WTF world do you guy's live in?

It's called a a RACE. It's not called a balanced equality fairness group touring session.

Race means, you use every inch of your brain, and whatever resources you can scrape together to put together your best shot at winning.

Racing is about racking your brain to design and come up with any possible unique advantages you can build/create/train to have, then trying to leverage rules, and sneaking anything possible through tech inspection (in our case, just a scale to weigh), and comming up with anything you can think of to give yourself an advantage.


Hell, I run in a class where every other car there has it's own truck and trailer and crew for support, loads of sponsors, and often as much money in useless asthetics than I have budgeted to race for the season. I gotta drive to events on the same engine I'm gona race on, with the inside of the car loaded up with tools and slicks etc. I don't have the budget to buy the $25,000usd G-force gearboxes they run, and have rebuilt every 2-3 events. I don't have 2 spare engines waiting in the trailer, each pre-broken-in on the dyno and with it's own programmed ECU waiting in the event of engine failure.
I build my own race stuff, almost entirely from scratch, sacrifice/save to buy the few parts I can't make (like F'ing gearsets... DAMN i hate buying gearsets!!!) and use my head and any tools I've got to try to match the performance of the big budgeted teams I run against, and it WORKS!

If you want to make a competitive entry bad enough, it really doesn't matter your budget, you can make it work if you dedicate, use your brain to it's fullest, and sacrifice.

Hell, even if you had ZERO e-bike parts to begin with, it's 1 year time to put away some resources to make it happen. Let's say you save up $5 per day between now and the time of the event to put towards making your bike. That's $1,825 that you've got. Lodging and food and local transporation is on me, Seattle is a $250-350 plane ticket from about anywhere, shipping the bike about $100. That leaves you with ~$1,400 budget to build the bike, which is plenty to make a top level racing bike if you spend it wisely. Hell, if you average 30mph for a 12.5mile course, that's 25mins of racing. With just 1kw-hr of LiPo (about $500), you could average 2400watts for the whole 25mins (on a tight track with half the time coasting or brakeing, that's like 4800w anytime you want to accelerate!) Or average over 10kw for the entire hill-climb on the same battery! Or, from the research I've done, if you're willing to dedicate the loss of some life-cycles on the pack, charge the cells up to 4.4v/cell and get an extra 25% energy density for the 12.5mile race. Then you could either choose to buy less LiPo and have a lighter pack and lower budget, or setup to run a higher average power etc. Pack-heating before the race would also be another economical way to secure some performance advantages.

Also, it's racing, not commuting. This means no BMS stuff needed, no worries about cells getting out of balance, power monitoring, or chargers ( I will have plenty of premium chargers and power supplies available for anyone to rapid-charge).


If you want to make an effort to race, then you gotta bite the bullet and do what it takes to trim your budget by ~$5 a day (or however much you will need) to make racing possible if you're dedicated enough to want to race.

That is, and always has been the nature of the sport of racing.