liveforphysics
100 TW
PedalingBiped said:
Hey! This is great bro! We could transport all the bikes to the kart track, and to the hill climb area in 1 trip this way.
Very cool! Thank you!
E-Bike Racing: 2011 World Challenge
- Thread starter Tiberius
- Start date
Hey! This is great bro! We could transport all the bikes to the kart track, and to the hill climb area in 1 trip this way.
Very cool! Thank you!
Tiberius
10 kW
liveforphysics said:
liveforphysics said:
Have to agree 100% with Luke here.
The numbers are chosen so that batteries are an important part of the equation, but the battery cost is still going to be less than other things like travel and accommodation for most people.
Roughly speaking, you will need 10 lb of batteries for every kW of motor power you want to run. With a 70 lb limit you can't run 6 kW except in short bursts. Those arguing for a higher weight limit need to think it through. It won't make heavy bikes more competitive; it will just make the lighter guys go faster.
Nick
dogman dan
1 PW
Potlatch at Lukes house!
Man, that sounds very very cool! But for me, it just may be too far from home to drive with the bike. Maybe if we piled enough Southwesterners in one car I could swing it. I only do the death race because it's so close to my house, so I may have to stick to that. But at least I get to do that one.
Too funny to see all the same debate pop up again about how to do limits. It's a real pandoras box to try to limit anything, and it seems ovbious to me that there will always have to be an unlimited class of some kind. The only rule being some kind of rule requiring operable pedals. Allow moped frames, but don't allow big motorcycles with pedals stuck on em. But build a huge custom bike frame if you want to. Maybe even limit watts, but to some huge number like 5000.
While I don't really agree with Safe about a 1000 watt limit, I think my ride at this years death race showed that a pretty fun ride can be had on go cart tracks with only 1500 watts. 30 mph potential in the corners is plenty of thrill for most guys. So maybe a class limited by voltage, 60v actual max, and amps, 30 max, would still provide fast enough racing at reasonable cost in a limited class.
Limiting weight is an intriging way to do it, but maybe just limiting the battery would work just as well. For instance, lipo will rule the pack, so simply say the max is 20 s or whatever. Then make the races fairly short so that 5 ah packs are big enough, and make the biggest common size the limit, say 5.8 ah. So the class would be 20s 6 ah. A123 bikes would be allowed a similar voltage. If you can handle 100 amps in those corners go for it. If you can't handle 100 amps in the corners, crash and get beat by a guy that can handle his 50 amps.
In another heat, you could make the race different by making it longer, and it becomes an efficiency contest. Not my cup of tea, but more racing is more fun! So why not?
Another fun activity would be to put the ulimited class top 6 finishers on identical bikes. Say, 6 ebike kits with 15s lipo batteries, and see who wins the second race. This time the detremining factor would be drafting, strategy, cornering line, etc.
As for guys wanting to race sla's, if enough show up, then put on a heat just for them to race eachother. Say a 36v class and a 48v class. Nice short heats so it's not a fresh battery contest.
Though it's too far from home for me financially, putting on the race in the NW makes a lot of sense, due to the proximity of more people to support the race organizing, and possibly more eco minded people on the west coast. Here where I live, F350 double cab trucks still sell briskly. I'd be stoked to have just one guy to compete with in my practice parking lot.
Man, that sounds very very cool! But for me, it just may be too far from home to drive with the bike. Maybe if we piled enough Southwesterners in one car I could swing it. I only do the death race because it's so close to my house, so I may have to stick to that. But at least I get to do that one.
Too funny to see all the same debate pop up again about how to do limits. It's a real pandoras box to try to limit anything, and it seems ovbious to me that there will always have to be an unlimited class of some kind. The only rule being some kind of rule requiring operable pedals. Allow moped frames, but don't allow big motorcycles with pedals stuck on em. But build a huge custom bike frame if you want to. Maybe even limit watts, but to some huge number like 5000.
While I don't really agree with Safe about a 1000 watt limit, I think my ride at this years death race showed that a pretty fun ride can be had on go cart tracks with only 1500 watts. 30 mph potential in the corners is plenty of thrill for most guys. So maybe a class limited by voltage, 60v actual max, and amps, 30 max, would still provide fast enough racing at reasonable cost in a limited class.
Limiting weight is an intriging way to do it, but maybe just limiting the battery would work just as well. For instance, lipo will rule the pack, so simply say the max is 20 s or whatever. Then make the races fairly short so that 5 ah packs are big enough, and make the biggest common size the limit, say 5.8 ah. So the class would be 20s 6 ah. A123 bikes would be allowed a similar voltage. If you can handle 100 amps in those corners go for it. If you can't handle 100 amps in the corners, crash and get beat by a guy that can handle his 50 amps.
In another heat, you could make the race different by making it longer, and it becomes an efficiency contest. Not my cup of tea, but more racing is more fun! So why not?
Another fun activity would be to put the ulimited class top 6 finishers on identical bikes. Say, 6 ebike kits with 15s lipo batteries, and see who wins the second race. This time the detremining factor would be drafting, strategy, cornering line, etc.
As for guys wanting to race sla's, if enough show up, then put on a heat just for them to race eachother. Say a 36v class and a 48v class. Nice short heats so it's not a fresh battery contest.
Though it's too far from home for me financially, putting on the race in the NW makes a lot of sense, due to the proximity of more people to support the race organizing, and possibly more eco minded people on the west coast. Here where I live, F350 double cab trucks still sell briskly.
I'd be stoked to have just one guy to compete with in my practice parking lot.
liveforphysics
100 TW
dogman said:
Nawww, we've got our limiting done perfectly. <70lbs 2-wheel vehicles and electric powered.
This means bicycles, recumbents, sit scooters, stand scooters, moped, or anything else with 2-wheels and electric power that you can make set on the scale and have it no exceed 70lbs.
Keeps out motorcycles this way, and as far as I'm concerned, if it's under 70lbs 2-wheeled and electric, it's a realistic example of an e-bike.
The only other rule I could see making would be functional pedals... but this would exclude possible scooter entrys, as well as raise the cost of non-hub-motor type bike builds while adding very minimal advantages, so I think it's best exactly as Tiberious presented it.
Full procedure of seeing if a bike qualifies (tech inspection).
Does it have no more than 2 wheels? (check box for yes)
Does it use electro-magnetics for propulsion (check box for yes)
Does the scale not exceed 70lbs when you hang the bike from it? (check box for yes)
Does the rider have a helmet? (check box for yes)
If you get 4-checks, you're good to race. Also, bikes placing 1-2-3 should be weighed immediately AFTER the race as well...
docnjoj
1 GW
So, um..............no trikes?
otherDoc
otherDoc
liveforphysics
100 TW
docnjoj said:
Well... a trike could really get odd for blocking passes on the track, and a trike could be made 6ft wide with minimal additional weight, meaning crazy handling limits and effects on the dynamics of the bikes on the track...
What do the rest of you guys think?
liveforphysics
100 TW
Are you going to enter, or just squak about units?
Miles said:30 Kilograms, you mean? I thought it was a World Challenge? Let's use international units, please...liveforphysics said:
tritonwow
100 W
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 104
Miles said:30 Kilograms, you mean? I thought it was a World Challenge? Let's use international units, please...liveforphysics said:
As I watch this thread take so many of the same paths as posts in previous race threads I'm reminded of the simplicity of the first post (and title of this thread): E-Bike Racing:...
Tiberius said:
So, two rules? Functioning pedals and a vehicle weight limit (which was originally given in both American and Metric system units)
2 or 200 wheels = doesn't matter (I'd really dig seeing a unicycle in the race)
what type of motor you run = doesn't matter (as long as it's electric)
what type of batteries you run = doesn't matter
Run what ya brung, especially for the inaugural race. Let those who show up and race eventually decide the fate of the series (class styles aka AHRA drag style, GRAND-AM Rolex Sports Car Series (this would be my fav type; prototypes and GT all out there in the mosh), or keep it simple (two rules), etc)
I might end up living back in the SEA-TAC area next year so may be able to attend an event. Anyhow, I'll follow all the threads and like vicariuosly through the likes of Dogman and Thud (for now)
Triton
liveforphysics
100 TW
Whoops! I missed the part where he suggested working pedals somehow... lol...
I'm fine with working pedals.
I'm fine with it exactly as his first post listed it.
Keep in mind, Tiberius has experience with a few E-bike racing events, including hill climbs, and tight road-course type races.
He has seen how some events worked out for E-bikes, which is more than 99.9% of the rest of us can say. I think this experience gives him some pretty good insight towards what rules will make for a good event or not, so I will just leave it exactly as his first post described.
I'm fine with working pedals.
I'm fine with it exactly as his first post listed it.
Keep in mind, Tiberius has experience with a few E-bike racing events, including hill climbs, and tight road-course type races.
He has seen how some events worked out for E-bikes, which is more than 99.9% of the rest of us can say. I think this experience gives him some pretty good insight towards what rules will make for a good event or not, so I will just leave it exactly as his first post described.
RWP
1 kW
On ES if you snooze you get pages of posts...wow 8)liveforphysics said:
I can live with this!
I actually like it better than classes...but for all the conversation...trying to offer a direction...but Luke's simple rules work for me.
oldhaq
100 W
I'm keen, I haven't had a trip OS for 4 yrs, so this is the best way to make up for it, Time to start a piggy bank, return flights for about 1000aud from Australia atm, so hoping they stay low until I can buy a ticket.
I like the sounds of the venue Luke has offered, I've heard there are good bikeways around Seattle too.
E-bike GP, like a normal GP meet, should have some classes based somehow on something, to get everyone interested and turning up.
How about a video doco, be nice to have a record of it all, something to show the kids/family/mates...espn? Anyone know a videographer(s)?
Is there a place around to stage a bmx or cross country type race, even with witches hats as markers/corners?
My lightest bike is 35kg/77lb with a 48v15a lifepo4 pack, although I'll be buying a pack when I get there. 70lb would be a lot easier to acheive for lipo racers, lifepo4 and SLA racers could perhaps receive a weight allowance, as the weight would be a handicap anyway. Actually I don't think there needs to be a weight limit, even 5kg of lipo packs enough punch to beat anything else paralelled x times. So just make the rules pedals + electric, perhaps class by minimum wheel size, since the power bikes love their 20" wheels. After the heats and class finals have an open final. That's the simplest I can think of to cater for everybody. Oh yeah, a powder puff class too. :wink:
All in all I'm not coming or expecting to win, although the racing will very likely bring out my competitive streak 
Rob
I like the sounds of the venue Luke has offered, I've heard there are good bikeways around Seattle too.
E-bike GP, like a normal GP meet, should have some classes based somehow on something, to get everyone interested and turning up.
How about a video doco, be nice to have a record of it all, something to show the kids/family/mates...espn? Anyone know a videographer(s)?
Is there a place around to stage a bmx or cross country type race, even with witches hats as markers/corners?
My lightest bike is 35kg/77lb with a 48v15a lifepo4 pack, although I'll be buying a pack when I get there. 70lb would be a lot easier to acheive for lipo racers, lifepo4 and SLA racers could perhaps receive a weight allowance, as the weight would be a handicap anyway. Actually I don't think there needs to be a weight limit, even 5kg of lipo packs enough punch to beat anything else paralelled x times. So just make the rules pedals + electric, perhaps class by minimum wheel size, since the power bikes love their 20" wheels. After the heats and class finals have an open final. That's the simplest I can think of to cater for everybody. Oh yeah, a powder puff class too. :wink:
All in all I'm not coming or expecting to win, although the racing will very likely bring out my competitive streak
Rob
Icewrench
10 kW
Weight limits?
There goes the x5 and 123`s.
Its the Death Race for me.
There goes the x5 and 123`s.
Its the Death Race for me.
liveforphysics
100 TW
Icewrench said:
I bet Arlo's x5 powered BMX is under 70lbs
Here's a slide show I just found on another thread of ES about a recent E-bike race in Europe...lots of different bikes!
http://www.flickr.com/groups/ebikes/pool/show/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/ebikes/pool/show/
REdiculous
10 kW
3 rules..hmm. Are 3 inline-wheels out with trikes too? bummer...oh well. later
dogman dan
1 PW
Ok I'm seeing the wisdom of a simple weight limit, but keep the distances shortish, so it doesn't become a who can afford to kill thier lipo pack contest.
From what I saw in Tucson, 5 laps on a kart track sorts em out pretty much, so 6-8 laps would be plenty of race length on that kind of track. To string it out and make it more fun, you could have multiple heats over several days on different kinds of courses, with a points contest for overall champ.
Later on we can hash out the actual number we use for the weight limit, if it ends up excluding a typical MTB with an x5 and 20s 10 ah lipo. No need to exclude such a popular type of ebike. But I totally agree that some kind of limiting is needed to keep a zero motorcycle or similar stuff out of the race. It's an ebike race. Take a typical 35 pound mtb, add a 25 lb x5 and you are right at 70 pounds already, so I think something like an 85 pound limit might work if you want to include x5's on heavier frames. But if you really want it kept pure, make it a 50 pound weight limit so people really have to work harder on thier bike than slap a 9c and 72v on a bike.
Just depends on how you want the race to be. For pretty much unlimited mayhem, there's still the death race.
I just weighed my race bike, with battery, and it will come in just about 68 pounds if I put 20s 10 ah lipo on it. So no way an x5 will pass the 70lb limit on most frames.
From what I saw in Tucson, 5 laps on a kart track sorts em out pretty much, so 6-8 laps would be plenty of race length on that kind of track. To string it out and make it more fun, you could have multiple heats over several days on different kinds of courses, with a points contest for overall champ.
Later on we can hash out the actual number we use for the weight limit, if it ends up excluding a typical MTB with an x5 and 20s 10 ah lipo. No need to exclude such a popular type of ebike. But I totally agree that some kind of limiting is needed to keep a zero motorcycle or similar stuff out of the race. It's an ebike race. Take a typical 35 pound mtb, add a 25 lb x5 and you are right at 70 pounds already, so I think something like an 85 pound limit might work if you want to include x5's on heavier frames. But if you really want it kept pure, make it a 50 pound weight limit so people really have to work harder on thier bike than slap a 9c and 72v on a bike.
Just depends on how you want the race to be. For pretty much unlimited mayhem, there's still the death race.
I just weighed my race bike, with battery, and it will come in just about 68 pounds if I put 20s 10 ah lipo on it. So no way an x5 will pass the 70lb limit on most frames.
gwhy!
100 kW
I agree about shorter distance races but more of them but there is nothing stoping us to have a endurance race aswell as the shorter races, if nothing else it will make it much better to watch. The weight limit is a very good idea but I can see the potential problems, The whole point of this would be to get as many peeps as possible racing against as many other peeps and generally having a bit of fun. I think it would really depend on how many people are there on the day ('s), If there was enough people with heavier bikes but these bikes must still be a E-cycle or stand on scooter then they can have a race of there own, maybe specify different weight limits for peeps running a different chemistry. Personally I think 35kg is to high 
it should be more like 20-25kg if using lipo
it should be more like 20-25kg if using lipo 
I may be stating the obvious, but if there are going to be classes the limitations/requirements should be such that they encourage people to improve and innovate on the important areas of ebike design. So, for example:
A weight limit encourages performance while keeping weight down. It will spawn designs which push the limits of speed, acceleration, handling, and stay lightweight.
A power limit encourages efficiency
A spending limit encourages keeping costs low
And so on. So what areas of ebikes do we feel are the most important to develop?
A weight limit encourages performance while keeping weight down. It will spawn designs which push the limits of speed, acceleration, handling, and stay lightweight.
A power limit encourages efficiency
A spending limit encourages keeping costs low
And so on. So what areas of ebikes do we feel are the most important to develop?
docnjoj
1 GW
liveforphysics said:
Not if you have to run a store bought trike. They are usually around 68-75 cm wide(that's 28 to about 32 inches to you Europhiles). Of course they could block someone slow...............!
otherdoc
REdiculous
10 kW
As far as the race you guys are planning...
I can get smoked on the track and then buy a round, it's cool...for the bbq I'd put a couple pizzas on the grill or whatever. I'd have to get a hub motor to get my bike under 70lbs but that should be possible by then..it's all good. later
I can get smoked on the track and then buy a round, it's cool...for the bbq I'd put a couple pizzas on the grill or whatever. I'd have to get a hub motor to get my bike under 70lbs but that should be possible by then..it's all good. later
oldhaq
100 W
Classes based on max weight, 25, 30, 35, 40 kg. Highest contenders from each into the open class finals?
Personal weight becomes an issue then for some. Good reason to lose some weight. Hey morph, you coming?
I suppose some want a purely serious raceday, or would like it to be a social event as well, and some may not bother if they can't have a meaningful place on the starting grid.
Personal weight becomes an issue then for some. Good reason to lose some weight. Hey morph, you coming?
I suppose some want a purely serious raceday, or would like it to be a social event as well, and some may not bother if they can't have a meaningful place on the starting grid.
oldhaq
100 W
After re-reading this thread I see more clearly what you guys are aiming for.
More of a formula 1 type race for ebikes, and it makes good sense to have few main criteria with weight being main defining one. So alloy or carbon fibre builds are looking good? 5kg extra of lipo on a bike with the right controller should easily account for a bike dry weighing 5kg or even 10kg less. So I guess 2P will probably be minimum req to be competitive.
Let others like spooky tooth etc be host for other types of bikes.
F1 pushes the limits of current tech, so should this I suppose.
More of a formula 1 type race for ebikes, and it makes good sense to have few main criteria with weight being main defining one. So alloy or carbon fibre builds are looking good? 5kg extra of lipo on a bike with the right controller should easily account for a bike dry weighing 5kg or even 10kg less. So I guess 2P will probably be minimum req to be competitive.
Let others like spooky tooth etc be host for other types of bikes.
F1 pushes the limits of current tech, so should this I suppose.
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