Enerdel 12S?! NMC pack

[davec]

i've never had any issues shipping lithium
i've shipped usps in the past and things got through the border just fine-- nowdays with new usps regulations i may use ups/fed ex ground as they will legally ship lithium-and if something goes wrong at least you can work with them

i finally figured out how these modules work.....your basic block has 2 cells back to back(and have a parallel connection)...these blocks interconnect.... ... to build a 1p pack - one option would be to make 1 cell blocks ..... it would be kindof of a waste of space though... another option although i am not sure if this would be safe would be to series connect the cells in the trays on one side ..... on the other side you slide the tabs in opposite direction and try to interconnect with the neigbhouring tabs......without having a module in hand -it's hard to tell if this is possible

 

[major]

i've never had any issues shipping lithium
i've shipped usps in the past and things got through the border just fine-- nowdays with new usps regulations i may use ups/fed ex ground as they will legally ship lithium-and if something goes wrong at least you can work with them

i finally figured out how these modules work.....your basic block has 2 cells back to back(and have a parallel connection)...these blocks interconnect.... ... to build a 1p pack - one option would be to make 1 cell blocks ..... it would be kindof of a waste of space though... another option although i am not sure if this would be safe would be to series connect the cells in the trays on one side ..... on the other side you slide the tabs in opposite direction and try to interconnect with the neigbhouring tabs......without having a module in hand -it's hard to tell if this is possible

Hi davec,

These carriers have rules which forbid this size of lithium rechargeable batteries. Here is a post from the thread where I offer them for sale.

The fedex website says the shipping from Toledo to Boston via ground would be $25 for one module. Seems like a bargain to me.

Look, I believe I've exhausted the possibilities of various carriers. To ship lithium-ion batteries, you have to be a certified packer. This is subsequent to the new rules. Its what people in the business do to get their batteries out to customers. But major is just an ordinary dude, not in the business and selling these batteries with customer (me) responsible for shipping.

Chicago Electric and I had a row with each other as I bought one of their lithium-ion packs (before doing my own A123 AMP20 build). But the pack would not charge on receipt. I asked them for a return shipping label, which they gave me. I then proceeded to pack it up in the original packaging and return it by the same carrier it came to me with - UPS. They stopped the shipment because I was not certified to ship lithium-ion batteries. Wouldn't even return it to me. I'd have to go the UPS shipping warehouse and pick it up (me without a car). It gets even worse. I tried to find out where the battery was being stored. No one, after repeatedly calling & emailing, could tell me were it was! It was just so fracking awful, I finally said, enough is enough and proceeded to attempt a reverasl of my paypal charges. That set off a whole nother round of awful. Finally, Chicago relented, gave me money back and the battery was supposedly discared by UPS.

Are you really suggesting UPS or FedEx or USPS? I don't think so.

w/r/t 1P. A configuration of straight series connected cells (1P?S) using the existing plastic frames can be done by simply eliminating every other cell. But that ends up being half of the active material for the volume. If you have the space available, it is a reasonable approach. But for an ebike, probably not the way to go. I've built quite a few modules of 2P and 4P. And busted my brain trying to figure a way to do a 1P. I just don't see how. The system is very well engineered for the intended 2P12S.

 

[davec]

the 2 cell blocks look to be 1" tall so eliminating every 2nd cell would end up wasting space and the pack would be a bit too tall......
my goal is a 16s1p pack... with 2 cells per block.... and a guess of 1" per 2 cell block would be about 8"
here's what i think may work: on one side interconnect (+ & -) and on the other side split them apart
so they dont touch(fold - to the left, fold the + to the right touching the next blocks - tab). the question is how long are the tabs on these things - would it be long enough to reach the next blocks cell tab....if thats the case you can make a plate out of pvc and use that to pressure /clamp the tabs from the neibhouring blocks cells

 

[major]

the 2 cell blocks look to be 1" tall so eliminating every 2nd cell would end up wasting space and the pack would be a bit too tall......
my goal is a 16s1p pack... with 2 cells per block.... and a guess of 1" per 2 cell block would be about 8"
here's what i think may work: on one side interconnect (+ & -) and on the other side split them apart
so they dont touch(fold - to the left, fold the + to the right touching the next blocks - tab). the question is how long are the tabs on these things - would it be long enough to reach the next blocks cell tab....if thats the case you can make a plate out of pvc and use that to pressure /clamp the tabs from the neibhouring blocks cells

Hi davec,

I just measured one. They call the 2 cells in parallel in the plastic frame with the heatsink between the 2 cells an element. This element is 13.7 mm thick. 12 elements are used in the 2P12S module. The 2 plastic end plates contain the battery (module) terminal and are about 6.5 mm thick. The total stack of 12 elements and 2 end plates measures about 6.8 inches.

The plastic frames are held together as a module by 4 aluminum thru bolts and do not compress the cells. They use a compliant material (thin sponge) between every other cell to apply a low pressure. I imagine this to be less than one psi. I was told that they use hard carbon which expands very little (like 1%) on the charge cycle so they do not need high pressure like the A123 pouches.

I also learned that when they (EnerDel) made 1P modules populating every other slot in their standard plastic frames, they inserted dummy cells to occupy the spaces. I have seen their sample 1P plastic frame design and it looks good. It is not available yet and I am unsure I could get any when it does become production. But I'll try.

And the cell tabs are too short to bend the opposite direction to do the 1P connection with the existing plastic frames. You need to bend the standard way and use the jumper bus plates thereby skipping every other cell and wasting half the module volume.

major

 

[davec]

as always thanks for taking the time to give us this great piece of information

an element is 13.7mm gotcha - so if i used 16 elements it would run to about 9" which is ok
if i used 8 elements- 2 cell per element it would be a nice 4.5" - perfect and compact
the reason i keep going on about 1p is because some of ebike guys dont have a great need for that much current..my controller is only 25amps(72v) which i believe the cell can easily deliver
i typically run 60 volts nom(and draw max 20/22amps) typicall is 15amps- and im totally happy with the performance- 16 of these would be perfect
im thinking maybe of fabricating a mod- a custom pcb board with small spaces that would mount to the threads yet \ttach to the tabs(drill small holes in tab to connect to pcb) and interconnect in series ....how many mm would you say those tabs are?

 

[major]

as always thanks for taking the time to give us this great piece of information

an element is 13.7mm gotcha - so if i used 16 elements it would run to about 9" which is ok
if i used 8 elements- 2 cell per element it would be a nice 4.5" - perfect and compact
the reason i keep going on about 1p is because some of ebike guys dont have a great need for that much current..my controller is only 25amps(72v) which i believe the cell can easily deliver
i typically run 60 volts nom(and draw max 20/22amps) typicall is 15amps- and im totally happy with the performance- 16 of these would be perfect
im thinking maybe of fabricating a mod- a custom pcb board with small spaces that would mount to the threads yet \ttach to the tabs(drill small holes in tab to connect to pcb) and interconnect in series ....how many mm would you say those tabs are?

Davide has what appears to be good dimensions here: http://liionbms.com/cgi-bin/moin.py/CustomProducts/EDI/EnerdelBattery I have some uninstalled cells in the lab I can measure on Monday if you need to check. And I realize the 35Ah element (2 cells in parallel) is a bit much for the norm on ebikes, but it is what it is. The plastic EnerDel frames are a really good package for these cells and I don't see an easy way to do it without using them.

 

[heathyoung]

How do these go with heavier loads in 2P configuration? Say 100A spikes?

 

[Arlo1]

This is a good thread its nice to see some better quality cells coming about.

 

[major]

How do these go with heavier loads in 2P configuration? Say 100A spikes?

My normal load test for the 2P12S modules is 100A and that is continuous from fully charged to 100% discharged. I don't have one of those tests on this computer. But here is a recent test:

I was attempting to run a 1C discharge test on a module from the lot and the stupid regulator faulted about 20 minutes into the test. I went to restart it and it latched full-on at over 350A so I shut down. I thought that would be some interesting data, but the current spike somehow corrupted the data file. So, WTH? A partially discharged battery and unable to do my capacity test that afternoon. So how about a little battery abuse? I reset my tester and logger and ran this.

That test was at approximately 8.5C for a good 30 seconds with the SOC at about 60%. My usual 100A test figures near 3C. I will pull a 100A test result off my other computer later and post it. The heat sinks on top of the modules get slightly warm on these tests. Both loads are in excess of the manufacturer's ratings which is 2C continuous discharge and 3C pulse. From: http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_CE175-360_Moxie.html I tend to run the battery harder because I use it for competition. I have seen no ill effects but cannot assure you there are none. I suspect I will see reduced life from my cells; which I am willing to accept.

 

[davec]

the pic shows part of the tab area being 4.25mm- which is quiete short

without having one in hand - one idea i had was to interconnect on one side- than on the other side fold the tab to the left and to the right (this is kinda scary because if they touch than there's a problem) so scratch that idea

i think removing those 2 threads(if possible) if the tabs are long enough it may be better to just interconnect on oneside and connect to a pcb board on the side with screws...

 

[major]

the pic shows part of the tab area being 4.25mm- which is quiete short

without having one in hand - one idea i had was to interconnect on one side- than on the other side fold the tab to the left and to the right (this is kinda scary because if they touch than there's a problem) so scratch that idea

i think removing those 2 threads(if possible) if the tabs are long enough it may be better to just interconnect on oneside and connect to a pcb board on the side with screws...

I was about ready to leave and saw your post. So I measured the tab on a raw cell. It is 3/8 inch (9.5mm) from the edge of the pouch seam. Not all of it protrudes past the plastic frame.

 

[davec]

ill brain storm some more- thx- 10mm seems enough to work with- maybe come up with hack to isolate tabs and put ring terminals on them with 10awg wire.
i've been looking at the cba graph from enerdel and these seem interesting
im used to lifepo4 which is a really flat graph but this is one is a nice freefall which is normal for this type of chem
is there alot of sag below a certain voltage? it dosnt seem that way based on the graph...
for lifepo4 i always stay above 3volts - lowest i would safely go is 2.7 but there's nothing usable under that
not sure what that limit is for these cells
for these 17.5ah cells seems like down to 2.5volts lvc you will get your 17.5ah but i would never push that far
down to 2.9 volts @ 1c it seems like you should get 14-14.5ah and still have reasonable 48v(with a 16s pack) volts left
down to 2.7 you'll get 16ah- i doubt i would go any lower than this - i would say the sweet spot is 14ah for these-fortunately i only use 10-12 so it's good enough
the life of these seems pretty good as well still retain close to 90% cap after 1000 cycles

Edit: yeah i prefer to keep my cell above 3v - @1c it seems to touch the 3v line at 13.5ah ( so it's fair to say i would get decent performance with a 16series pack upto 13.5ah anything past that would be at lowervoltage/peformance for 16s pack)
my typical run i consume 10ah- which leaves the cell at 3.4v or 54v for pack
12ah at most would leave the pack at 3.2 at 51v which is ok



data from:
http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/10/CE175-360-Moxie-Prismatic-Cell_ENERGYSTORAGE_Final.pdf

 

[major]

Yep, these definitely have a slope. See my earlier post (dated 7/15) for a 1C discharge on the module. Starts at 50V; ends at 30V. Probably not what you're used to. But it is usable all they way down to 2.5V/c. It falls off real fast below there. If you need voltage (for speed) all the way through the discharge, you should design for a higher voltage pack and use the controller to reduce voltage at the high SOC. In my EV, I don't notice a reduction in top speed until I get gown to below 20%, maybe 15% SOC. Also, the sloping voltage (vs Ah) is easier to use for SOC indicator.

the life of these seems pretty good as well still retain close to 90% dod after 1000 cycles

That is 90% capacity. Discharges were 100% DOD. Of course, you get better cycle life by limiting DOD to less than 100%.

 

[heathyoung]

Sigh - if only there was a way to get these shipped here...

The V will take a 170V max pack, and has an LVC of 110V or so. 40S2P would be ideal. Nice packaging arrangement as well.

 

[major]

How do these go with heavier loads in 2P configuration? Say 100A spikes?

My normal load test for the 2P12S modules is 100A and that is continuous from fully charged to 100% discharged. I don't have one of those tests on this computer.

My usual 100A test figures near 3C. I will pull a 100A test result off my other computer later and post it. The heat sinks on top of the modules get slightly warm on these tests. Both loads are in excess of the manufacturer's ratings which is 2C continuous discharge and 3C pulse. From: http://evolveelectrics.com/Enerdel_CE175-360_Moxie.html I tend to run the battery harder because I use it for competition. I have seen no ill effects but cannot assure you there are none. I suspect I will see reduced life from my cells; which I am willing to accept.

I couldn't find a recent 100A test so ran one today.

Pretty close to 35 Ah which is rated for the 2 cells in parallel.

Cell voltage from CellLog8s. 6 cells on each of the 2.

A blowup of the CellLog chart. I was a few seconds slow starting the record on one unit accounting for the horizontal shift.

 

[Mr Ed]

I also learned that when they (EnerDel) made 1P modules populating every other slot in their standard plastic frames, they inserted dummy cells to occupy the spaces. I have seen their sample 1P plastic frame design and it looks good. It is not available yet and I am unsure I could get any when it does become production. But I'll try.

And the cell tabs are too short to bend the opposite direction to do the 1P connection with the existing plastic frames. You need to bend the standard way and use the jumper bus plates thereby skipping every other cell and wasting half the module volume.

major

Am super-keen to buy 200 of the proper 1P frames and busbars from you if you ever manage to get hold of them. Enerdel won't sell them to me. I have the 12S2P packs sitting here now, ready to convert to 1P once someone figures out how.

 

[Arlo1]

I also learned that when they (EnerDel) made 1P modules populating every other slot in their standard plastic frames, they inserted dummy cells to occupy the spaces. I have seen their sample 1P plastic frame design and it looks good. It is not available yet and I am unsure I could get any when it does become production. But I'll try.

And the cell tabs are too short to bend the opposite direction to do the 1P connection with the existing plastic frames. You need to bend the standard way and use the jumper bus plates thereby skipping every other cell and wasting half the module volume.

major

Am super-keen to buy 200 of the proper 1P frames and busbars from you if you ever manage to get hold of them. Enerdel won't sell them to me. I have the 12S2P packs sitting here now, ready to convert to 1P once someone figures out how.

Send me a pack or two and I will do it! See here.
:Edit this I think is a 4p set up I will need one in my hands to figure out 1p and this is someone else work not mine. I Might order a couple modules in the spring but unless I find a crazy cheep deal now I will not bother wasting them siting here most of the raining season.

 

[peadar]

Send me a pack or two and I will do it! See here.
:Edit this I think is a 4p set up I will need one in my hands to figure out 1p and this is someone else work not mine. I Might order a couple modules in the spring but unless I find a crazy cheep deal now I will not bother wasting them siting here most of the raining season.

Are you still using the enerdel modules
Interested to know more,
Greentec Auto has energy modules on sale, discharge amps?

 

[Arlo1]

Are you still using the enerdel modules
Interested to know more,
Greentec Auto has energy modules on sale, discharge amps?

Na. I think that was the local kart thing that fell though.

 

[peadar]

Na. I think that was the local kart thing that fell though.

I bought some Kokam cells to build a 96v pack with;the search is over,