Feedback/suggestions on ebike build

[the_dude]

Warning: this is kind of long, sorry.

I've been lurking on this board now for a few weeks trying to soak in all the great knowledge available here. I've learned a ton and wanted to get some feedback or suggestions on building an ebike to commute to work with.

About me (the current bike motor):
I'm not an avid cyclist. I bought a trek 7100 in 2012 to try and replace the car for short trips to nearby stores as well as to see how realistically I could commute to work on it which is 17 miles each way (34 miles round trip). The short trips to the store have almost all been replaced by biking or walking but I've never been able to get the commuting off the ground. I've done the full ride a few times and a park and ride version that is 9.5 miles each way a number of times (started again with 3 times last week and 1 time this week so far). I'm 6'4" and weigh about 210 lb (want to get down to 195-200).

The ride:
The ride itself is fairly flat, with 2 small hills and 1 long but very mild grade towards the end when heading to work. It is ~7 miles of road (5 with a bike lane) and 10 miles of bike path. About half of the bike path has a no motorized vehicle rule. When doing my 9.5 mile partial commute (skips most of the road sections and the two small hills) I have averaged between 12.5-13.8mph moving time (bike computer so excludes time not moving/waiting at lights) going to work and 13.5-15.8mph coming from work. Full ride in has historically taken about 1.5 hours and the partial ride has taken 35-45mins but the total commuting time with changing clothes and getting the bike ready is still 1.5 hours each way.

Goals:
My normal commuter is a motorcycle that gets 43 mpg and takes 25 minutes. To make the cycling worth while I want to get some light aerobic exercise and get to work in about one hour (or less) doing the full 17 miles by bike. There are no showers at work so in the past I've only done cycling to work during the winter (live in Socal) and not the summer. I want to be able to ride in year round and keep exertion low enough to not get more than mildly damp with sweat.

- With mild pedal assist obtain an overall average speed of 17 mph including stops. My ride in has 19 stop lights and 4 stop signs.
- Be quite enough/stealth to provide assist on a bike path with no motorized bicycle rule (will be keeping speeds on 6 miles of this path to 20mph or below)
- Take advantage of 3-5 miles of straight line high visibility bike path or street riding where I could go 20+mph. Given that the bike path is no motor vehicles allowed (including motorized bicycles) I want to the motor to be quite enough to still give some assist to keep me going between 15-20 mph.
- Capable of either doing 34 mile round trip on single charge or ability to remove battery pack and charge in cube at work. If charging in cube needs to be minimal risk of danger.
- Fun and comfortable enough commute to do it a minimum of 3 days per week on average.

Build:
- Bike: start with Trek 7100 bike (700c tires). Aluminum frame so rear motor with torque arms. Bike is the 22.5" model.
- Motor & controller: Really like the looks of the Falco emotors and the legacy from TF and eplus brands. Attracted to the supposedly silent operation, cog free pedaling, efficiency. Considering the 500w model. Would get the off road console
- Battery: This is the area I'm struggling with the most. I want a frame mounted battery in the triangle of the bike. The Falco setup is 36v 11.6 ah 417 wh and so it maybe could barely cover one way of the commute. So its expensive, would use more than 80% of capacity, and would require charging at work. Compared to the $700 Falco bottle battery I could get the EM3ev bottle mount pack is 36v 16.5 ah for $500. So saves money and gives me ~42% more range. EM3ev also has the soft shell triangle pack which is 50v 18.5ah with 925wh which would be slightly more $$ than the Falco pack.

Questions:
- Overall what do you guys think?
- Stupid to put $1500+ conversion kit into a trek 7100?
- Can a 36v battery pack give me 25 mph sustained top end with mild pedaling for part of my commute?
- Is the 50v EM3ev pack even compatible with the 55v maximum Falco motor?
- Am I likely to get more range out of the 50v 18.5 ah pack or 36v 16.5ah pack? My reading suggests with the higher voltage everyone just goes faster so you need a lot more ah to get equal range?
- Can either EM3ev kit get me to work and back on one charge? Or is anyone aware of a triangle/bottle pack that can? If not what is the best one way pack for the $$? I'm concerned with the longevity of the 417 wh Falco battery since I would probably be using near 100% of it twice a day each time I rode.
- Should I be considering a different motor or kit?

Thanks

 

[wesnewell]

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. Once done, your location will appear in every post so you won't have people asking where you are ever again. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. or just USA, but country as a minimum, and country is the most important. There are many cities with the same name all over the world. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.

 

[hcrider]

the_dude: Check out my prior posts on the Trek 7300, Falco 500w and AllCell 36v 20ah battery. My AllCell tops out at 41.86 volts at full charge. I've done multiple 35 mile rides with plenty of battery to spare, but averaging around 18 mph. I weigh 160 lbs in clothes. Pedaling hard, my bike hits 31 mph on the flat, enough to outrun most farm dogs, which is my main reason for wanting higher speed.

The Falco motor / control console is designed to use "36 volts". I think Rakesh of Falco told me that going to 48 volts will work fine with the motor, but the console's display may not function fully. You would want to run that issue by Rakesh to see what he says. Volts x Amp Hours = Watt Hours, which is useful when considering range. The more the better. I use regeneration a lot on downhills, pedaling and maintaining pace while adding to the battery's range.

From what I know, there is no perfect system. Anything good costs a bit. Keep studying and I think you'll make a good choice that you'll ride and enjoy a lot.

hcrider

 

[DAND214]

I think Mototized means ICE. You might want to check.
48v will give you more power and if kept undercontrol it If you are still looking for good product a a fair price you need to look at ill give more mikes being the same Ah rating.
If you are still looking for good product at fair prices, then you need to look herehttp://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=common/home
Fast service at fair prices.

Dan

 

[the_dude]

Thanks for the info guys. I did some further reading and aparently the "no motorized bicycles" is a California law on all bike paths unless expressly allowed by the local jurisdiction :/

V C Section 21207.5 Motorized Bicycles Prohibited Operation
Motorized Bicycles: Prohibited Operation

21207.5. Notwithstanding Sections 21207 and 23127 of this code, or any other provision of law, no motorized bicycle may be operated on a bicycle path or trail, bikeway, bicycle lane established pursuant to Section 21207, equestrian trail, or hiking or recreational trail, unless it is within or adjacent to a roadway or unless the local authority or the governing body of a public agency having jurisdiction over such path or trail permits, by ordinance, such operation.

Motorized bicycle is defined as:

V C Section 406 Motorized Bicycle
Motorized Bicycle

406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

(b) A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric motor that meets all of the following requirements:
(1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
(2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on ground level.
(3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.
(4) Every manufacturer of motorized bicycles, as defined in this subdivision, shall provide a disclosure to buyers that advises buyers that their existing insurance policies may not provide coverage for these bicycles and that they should contact their insurance company or insurance agent to determine if coverage is provided. <snip>

So it looks like under 406 (b) electric bikes are considered by CA to be motorized bicycles and are generally prohibited on bike paths.

 

[wesnewell]

Take your pick. Any will work well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/26-Electric-Bike-Bicycle-Motor-Conversion-Kit-eBike-Rear-Wheel-48V-1000W-/370934929537
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Conversion-Kit-24V-36V-48V-250W-500W-700W-800W-1000W-/290754592384
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/231132763662
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W26-Front-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-EBike-Cycling-Conversion-/370982062090
20ah of 12s rc lipo should get you to and from work on a single charge at 20mph. Top speed will be ~28mph.

 

[dogman dan]

I can't comment on the Falco motor, but I do know what you will need in the battery. You need close to 36v 20 ah, or 48v 15 ah. About 700 wh will be needed on any day with a lot of wind, and less on the nice days. Charge at work, so forget the RC shit. Ping lifepo4 would work. 36v 20 ah fit's in bike frames that are on the large side. But mock up a battery and see if it will before buying.

Sneak the bike path as long as you can get away with it. Ride polite, then make up lost time by riding 25 mph on the street.

Go for it, but I predict your real world ride time will be closer to 65 min. I used to do 15 miles in about 55 min. It's all those damn stops.

 

[the_dude]

wesnewell. I take it that the quality of the motor isn't all that important if buying no name kits of ebay? Or you know those particular kits have good motors? Do you know if they are totally quiet? Based on my research last night I'm more convinced than ever of the need for a totally silent (or as much as possible) motor if I want to use any assist on a good portion of the bike path.

dogman. Do you recommend the Ping over the cell_man em3vc triangle pack to just save me a bit of coin or? EDIT: According to Falco "LiFePO4 Batteries: One thing you want to be sure of is that the battery can deliver a peak current of 35A without any problem. If that is not possible, then please do not use the battery. Regeneration works with all batteries." Are 35amp spikes ok with a Ping or would I want 20ah battery to ensure I don't go above 2c?

Thanks guys

 

[wesnewell]

The quality of all the motors are about the same. I've got over 10,000 miles on my cheap one. Some of the most hyped and expensive have had the most problems. As for the battery, you can get at least 30ah of 12s lipo in that large frame. You could use nmc. but that would cost a fortune. RC lipo from hk is a lot cheaper. 36V will limit your top speed to 20mph on most motors. DD motors are the quietest. Geared motors are not as reliable and make more noise. With rc lipo, you could start with 20-25ah and add to it easily if needed. Adding to a lifepo4 pack is not as simple. You can also change a 20ah 12s lipo pack into a 10ah 24s pack in seconds if you ever wanted a lot more speed with a new controller.

 

[the_dude]

RC lipo certainly looks attractive once you have invested in the accessories. However, based on all the lipo advice out there I can't charge them at work. So I'm looking at a huge heavy lipo pack to make it 34 miles round trip w/ heavy assist right?

 

[hcrider]

the_dude: For weight vs power, check out AllCell's site at www.allcelltech.com/products/electric-bike for specs / weights. Soon they will offer their "Summit Battery" line, which will be frame mounted. No specs yet. My 36v 20ah AllCell in a TOPEAK MTX bag is 12 lbs. Also, see http://www.electricbike.com/high-current-batteries-that-are-not-lipo/ It's an excellent article on battery technology.

hcrider

 

[mark5]

wesnewell. I take it that the quality of the motor isn't all that important if buying no name kits of ebay? Or you know those particular kits have good motors? Do you know if they are totally quiet? Based on my research last night I'm more convinced than ever of the need for a totally silent (or as much as possible) motor if I want to use any assist on a good portion of the bike path.

the_dude, have you seen mcintyretj's postings before? He reviewed and writes occasional updates (his 10,000+ mile update was the last) on a motor kit like wesnewell suggests, using it on a So Cal bike path with no noise problem. A couple of excerpts from a posting of his below:
"About 32 of my 50 miles a day are on the San Gabriel river path."
"... Also, since I have very few stops, I ride full throttle most the time except when there are kids, people walking or dogs on the path."

mcintyretj's Yescomusa.com 500 watt 48v rear kit review
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41170&p=734298#p745195

Not to say you shouldn't want even more silence, Falco looks and legacy, or whatever you like. Just that the motor kits that wesnewell suggested apparently work well enough for the bike path mcintyretj rides, in case your bike path is like his (video, about 1:40 in). Also it might be of interest that mcintyretj uses a Ping battery but also carries a lipo battery in a front handlebar bag.

 

[wesnewell]

RC lipo certainly looks attractive once you have invested in the accessories. However, based on all the lipo advice out there I can't charge them at work. So I'm looking at a huge heavy lipo pack to make it 34 miles round trip w/ heavy assist right?

A 20ah 12s rc lipo pack will weigh 14 lbs and will go over 40 miles @20mph and have a top speed of ~28mph. That's without pedaling. If you want more range than that, each additional 5ah will weigh ~3.5 lbs. 20ah will fit in a 17" frame with a little spare room. If you have a 22" frame, you should be able to get 30ah in it. Here's 20ah 12s in a 17" frame.

 

[dogman dan]

A ping in 15 ah size won't like 35 amps spikes. It can tolerate 30 amps spikes, which are typical if you have a 20 amps controller.

 

[newschoolnerd]

OP Welcome to the forum. I have been working with Falco for a couple of months now and it's a great system. It's certainly more expensive than kits on eBay and the like, but IMO totally worth the price. I have been testing a Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker 700c w/ a torque sensored 500w Falco Motor and a throttle (although I actually removed the throttle now). I started with a 36v water bottle battery and have now switched to a 48v downtube battery.

The Falco system can run on 36v or 48v with no issues, you just need to pair the battery, which is a simple process. There are many differences between the Falco motor and some of the cheaper motors available on eBay and the like, for one it's 5 phase as opposed to 3 phase, this in my understanding is completely unique to Falco. My experience is the motor is much smoother and quieter than most other kit motors out there. I was able to comfortably maintain a speed of 25 mph with the 48v 30 is no issue, I am unable to keep up pedaling past 35 mph, but I am experimenting with Schlumpf drives to see if I can sustain 35mph and a top speed of 40mph pedal assist only. Beyond that there are two things that get me really excited about Falco, for one it's essentially the Open Source equivalent to Bionx. All parameters are adjustable and it can work with essentially any battery as long as it meets the basic requirements. Number two for me is the torque sensor, I'm really a big fan of torque sensored ebikes as I feel this is the best way to go if you don't want to have to fiddle with a throttle when riding. I feel much more likely to get exercise if I know I need to pedal to keep the bike moving, with most throttle bikes I tend to just let the motor do all the work.

It would probably be best if you went and tested some bikes out and I think Electric Cyclery is the shop local to you and they are a Falco dealer. I think it will help you to feel the difference in the motor systems, as I respect the lower cost motors for what they are, but it's a totally different experience riding with a motor that has been built with years of experience and R&D behind it.

Another great battery option as hcrider mentioned is the AllCell Summit, it should be available towards the end of the month in a 36v11ah configuration and the 36v17ah along with the 48v14ah will be available in another couple of months.

 

[pendragon8000]

......
- With mild pedal assist obtain an overall average speed of 17 mph including stops. My ride
- Bike: start with Trek 7100 bike. Aluminum frame so rear motor with torque arms. Bike is the 22.5" model.
......
Questions:
- Overall what do you guys think?
- Stupid to put $1500+ conversion kit into a trek 7100?
- Can a 36v battery pack give me 25 mph sustained top end with mild pedaling for part of my
......
Thanks

check this kit:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_ezee.php
on 36v it goes 21mph with 26" wheels acording to the simulator , 14ah = 29Ml range
that would be on budget and reliable.
if you want to go faster IMO get a xc bike with 29" wheels and disc brakes ,you'll roll with less friction and it will go faster due to larger wheels.
like this
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/29er-hardtail/diamondback/overdrive/prd_420881_1548crx.aspx
good luck

 

[the_dude]

Well I went by an ebike shop today and test rode two Falco equipped bikes, bionix and motiv. I learned a few things.

- I really like the pedal assist feature over using throttle.

- Both Falco equipped bikes did not work properly when using the throttle. Both used a crank sensor based PAS and they worked great when in PAS mode but when using the throttle the power was applied in a major on/off stutter.

- I much prefer the silent operation of a DD hub over the Motiv's geared hub. The geared hub isn't obnoxious but I would not feel comfortable riding that on a bike path.

So many options in the ebike world and expensive enough that experimentation through buying is cost prohibitive.

 

[FalcoeMotors]

Could you tell me where did you test the systems? Was it at Electric Cyclery? We have several systems out with throttle + various other configurations. All configurations work quite flawlessly.

For 17 mile ride, I would definitely recommend motor with torque sensor only. That is the cleanest and simplest installation. It will only have three components: Motor+Battery+Wireless Console.

We also have now available a PC Falco interface which will allow you to maximize range or minimize riding time.

You can also have a system without console (Two components only - Motor and Battery ) if you prefer and settings can be adjusted through the Falco interface.

Thank You