Formula E drivetrains ?

jonescg said:
Right - all true and good, but we've not seen that in the development of ever faster, lighter, more powerful EVs. Porsche is going for an 800 V system, and heavy rigs are opting for nearly 1000 volt systems.

Despite all the potential on offer for lower voltage systems, engineers are not taking it on - instead going for a proven technology in higher voltages. I know you have been a strong proponent for lower voltage systems for many years now, but the tide is puling the other way :?


Not to nitpick, but Porsche has actually not released an 800vdc product since its claimed 2015 production date yet due to 800vdc related drama.

So far we've mostly seen many silly guys at many silly OEMs have talking about the high voltages they use in unreleased vehicles.

The physics of the system will eventually drive EV design, and it simply won't require the added needless drama.
 
speedmd said:
Max current was 170 kw and was displayed on the jumbo in the NYC race. Double the capacity and current would be welcome improvement for at least this spectator. No one was talking about motor or controller meltdowns, only the concerns for battery. Not only a severely restrictive performance series, also a restrictive supplier series. Poor combination for fast development IMO.
They wont be doubling the current available, if they did, they would be back to changing cars or packs at half distance again !.......but the max power will be increased to 250kW.
As said previously, there has to be "control" specs for various components....battery, chassis, tires, aero design, etc. in order to prevent escalating costs that would eliminate all but a few teams.
This was never going to be a open development series, (again to contain costs), but slowly they are opening up the options for the teams. Motor, drivetrain, contrrols, suspension, are all open for individual development currently, and soon full chassis design will be free , but if desired, control ("stock") systems/cars are also available.
 
250KW is still not anywhere enough IMO to make it a great series. They need to come much closer to indy or F1 in power. Pack swaps are the only way forward unless they can somehow learn to refuel in seconds which we all would love to see happen. No way it will get the same fanfare with over weight cars, shortened events or car swaps. It is just very much a f3- prius race the way they set it up at the moment. An electric cart race would be much more fun to watch IMO.
 
liveforphysics said:
Not to nitpick, but Porsche has actually not released an 800vdc product since its claimed 2015 production date yet due to 800vdc related drama.

I'd be keen to read about this if you can provide a link. I would be very surprised if the voltage was the reason it's been delayed.
 
jonescg said:
liveforphysics said:
Not to nitpick, but Porsche has actually not released an 800vdc product since its claimed 2015 production date yet due to 800vdc related drama.

I'd be keen to read about this if you can provide a link. I would be very surprised if the voltage was the reason it's been delayed.


Why do you think that Chris??

I could be wrong but I thought above 800 Volts had leakage problems with moisture etc IDK???

Cheers Kiwi
 
If done badly, yes you can get leakage issues. But Sydney trains run on 1500 V DC, Melbourne trams are 750 V DC. There's plenty of precedent for managing high DC voltages.

If you plan on applying some e-bike-LiPo-gaffa tape-series-parallel-harness attitudes to a high voltage racing application, then you can expect some serious hurt. But if you engineer a solution to be as simple, compact and safe as possible, then it's no biggie. Water-proof, crash-proof, short-proof. If you can't envisage the vehicle being safe enough to pick up after a spill in the wet, you need to work harder on the design.
 
High voltage has its place, but not near the masses of idiots! In low budget racing and consumer products, Best they focus development on less than lethal voltages IMO.

MB is getting into the pool big time. http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a10352263/mercedes-will-quit-dtm-in-2019-to-race-in-formula-e/
 
I've always enjoyed those times when "racing improves the breed" in history. Back in the 1930's it took a really long time to design something and shake out the development bugs. During the "Battle for Britain", agile Spitfires defended against the very capable German fighter planes. Although the slower Hurricanes downed more enemy aircraft, they had gone after the slower bombers, and the Spitfire is credited with saving Britain from invasion (until the US was drawn into the fight).

Why was the Spitfire so good, when it was developed in peacetime during a tight economy? It was a private racer using a Rolls Royce engine, and it won the 1929 Schneider trophy during an international race, three years before Hitler even came to power (and began modernizing their military). Overhead cams, Four valves per cylinder, sodium-cooled exhaust valves that allowed them to run hotter because the turbo-boost had been jacked up. No war department committee had anything to do with the early design.

It would be nice if the restrictions in the Formula-E drivetrains helped advance designs that might actually go into retail cars.
 
I went here with higher voltages to get more power out but after being pointed in the right direction by a few lovelys on here I found that the pros and cons weigh out in a negative fashion when we concider the whole design.
Higher voltage igbts and fets have greater on resistance vs lower voltage so the controller is on the back foot for efficiency of the bat, Any saving in copper weight that's made by transmitting less amps is then replaced with more complex insulation.
The motors themself's will operate well over 1000 volts but again care has to be taken with greater insulation so they are not the bottleneck but they will be larger and slightly heavier to stop the leakage and the rest of the system as a whole has these small bottlenecks everywhere the higher we go with voltage.
Current component trends are for lower resistances and greater switching speeds so to me from that comes a motor that can have lots of poles and high current for a slow moving torque monster, or fewer poles still high current but now a high revving beast that still will need no gears.
Charging tech is pushing the amps higher and higher so the trend is there already.

Maybe a future pack will charge at 400v lots of amps and discharge at 100vdc again many times more amps that todays standard but all in small compact components with very little waste heat.
 
spinningmagnets said:
I've always enjoyed those times when "racing improves the breed" in history. Back in the 1930's it took a really long time to design something and shake out the development bugs. During the "Battle for Britain", agile Spitfires defended against the very capable German fighter planes. Although the slower Hurricanes downed more enemy aircraft, they had gone after the slower bombers, and the Spitfire is credited with saving Britain from invasion (until the US was drawn into the fight).

Why was the Spitfire so good, when it was developed during peacetime during a tight economy? It was a private racer using a Rolls Royce engine, and it won the 1929 Schneider trophy during an international race, three years before Hitler even came to power. Overhead cams, Four valves per cylinder, sodium-cooled exhaust valves that allowed them to run hotter because the turbo-boost had been jacked up. No war department committee had anything to do with the early design.

It would be nice if the restrictions in the Formula-E drivetrains helped advance designs that might actually go into retail cars.
You are so right!

Just saw Dunkirk the movie great bit of cinema imo

Cheers Kiwi

And thanks all for there thoughts on high voltage but when you Google they say anything above 48 volts, I wouldn't go holding the ends of my so called low voltage 165 volt pack anymore than a Nissan Leaf pack is there a difference or just attitude? ?
 
speedmd said:
High voltage has its place, but not near the masses of idiots! In low budget racing and consumer products, Best they focus development on less than lethal voltages IMO.....
.....too late im afraid. That horse has already bolted...
In adition to Fe and F1, and some of the other hybrid racers, Toyota and Lexus already have hundreds of thousands of Hybris vehicles on the road using high voltage drive systems (700+v)
 
I am all for kicking EV racing off in any way that works, but don't think long term this can or should be left to the majors to decide on limits or rules that govern the sports. They have shown clearly that they want no one working on the cars now and if left up to them they will become a sealed black box that you rent.

Horse has bolted, yes agree, but that does not make it safe for him to run down the highway. :)

Toyo has packs that are under 300v last I checked and are made up of much lower volt (manageable) modules. They are stepped up a bit to drive the inverters. Regardless, mixing high voltages with large volumes of highly flammable gas in a hybrid..., What could possibly go wrong. :lol:

310px-Hindenburg_disaster.jpg


220V would be the upper limit (target) if I were pulling numbers out of the sky for a limit in the long term at least for most consumer (unsealed) goods. Even that is not something I would like to see near my belly on my battery powered hedge trimmer while cutting damp bushes.
 
Toyota/Lexus hybrid drive train motors and control systems are 700+ volts and have been in common use around the world for many years with no major safety issues that i can recall being reported.
As Jones said, it its done correctly then its not an issue.
All domestic power , appliances, lighting, etc etc in half the world (Europe, Asia, Japan, Australia, etc) have been 240-250v AC since initial installation started, and that level of voltage is just as lethal as 7-800v
In many countries , you dont even need a licience or training to install domestic power lines.
Further , industry, common workplaces, use 440v commonly with much higher (+kV levels) systems in regular use by many.
More people die on the roads than from electricution....but we dont stop people driving or crossing roads.
I dont know what is the optimum voltage for an EV battery or drivesystem, but i am sure a "safe" 48-60v system is not likely to give the kind of vehicle dynamics we expect.
 
Japan runs 100v, usa is 120v for house hold wall sockets. 220v for dryers, heaters and power hungry devices in our parts. All will kill you, no argument. 800 volts, no issue if every thing is dry like in some parts of the world. Where I live, it is not anywhere near as safe outdoors most of the year. Not even close. I trimmed wet bushes yesterday for a few hours in light rain and would not even think about using a 120v power cord fed tool in those conditions. As is, the 58v pack was giving me the creeps so I decided to go back to the gas trimmer the last half of the job. Been bit too many times. It will be interesting to see where transport and race pack voltages settle out for certain.
 
Hillhater said:
All domestic power , appliances, lighting, etc etc in half the world (Europe, Asia, Japan, Australia, etc) have been 240-250v AC since initial installation started, and that level of voltage is just as lethal as 7-800v

You are joking, right?
 
Hillhater said:
Dead is dead..... Does it mattter if its a 240v jolt , or a 1 kv flash that does the deed ?
...Neither of them is a joke. :cry:
There is alot of difference between a AC and a DC shock been shocked by 240v AC a bunch ( light switch in the shed that i have now fixed) and 600v dc from a fairly big capacitor bank it all depends what the amps are and if it goes across the heart ...

had lots of shocks from wet battery's / connectors 12v 24v 36v 48v they just tingle a bit lol
 
spinningmagnets said:
high voltage has its place, but not near the masses of idiots!

I am offended that you would talk about me like this in a public forum, how dare you! (*begins crying like a 13-year old bchild)

He's just jealous of what high voltage you really are.

The RAF's Spitfire and Hurricane have one thing in common with racing: Colin Chapman, who was already racing while in uniform. I suppose the two planes were a bad influence on him, the man known for saying "Add lightness." But there's more to consider in comparing the Hurricane to the Sptifire.

The Spitfire was planned as a 'Home Guard' aircraft, following the prewar theory of the 'Pursuit' aircraft, hoping to defy the preward logic of "The Bomber will always get through." It was light, short ranged, given largely to aerobatic combat. In 'Fight for the Sky' the legendary legless fighter pilot Douglas Bader referred to the Hurricane as the more stable, therefore more accurate, gun platform. The Japanese built the A6m Reisen along the same theory as the Spitfire, resulting in an even less stable platform. The Hurricane's was also the better armored plane, making it more suitable to attack a target that could fire back. This, as well as being the more suitable cross country attack plane, is what led to the Hurricane shooting down more planes even though the Spitfire outnumbered it 3-2. The Spitfire may have been more exciting, but the Hurricane was more stalwart.

So Colin Chapman left the RAF and took up building his 3rd race car, the 1st he completed before enlisting. One thing you could depend on with a Lotus. It would be light. It would also be uncomfortable, he was said to remark that if the cockpit wasn't too tight it was too large. So questions lingered over the death of his best friend, Jimmy Clark, in a Lotus. The Italian government threatened legal action when Jochen Rindt died in a Lotus at Monza. Then came the death of Ronnie Peterson in the wreck of his backup car, the last years' design Lotus 77. He would remark that if there had been a newer Lotus 78 available as the backup car Peterson may have survived the accident. One lesson racing is always teaching is about safety.

So one lesson to learn is not to be addicted to lightness. Another light car, the venerable F5000 Lola T330 series, was considered a potential inexpensive replacement for the Indycars in the 70's Mario Andretti, who'd raced the T330's, expressed his doubts but agreed to run a mock 500 mile race at Indy. The chassis broke under the strain of the higher speeds of ovaltrack racing, considering that in roadracing the car spent much of the race under 100mph and was rarely if ever on banked turns so such light construction wasn't nearly so challenged. A morphed reconstruction of the T330's succeeded in the more physically demanding reboot of the CanAm series that had allowed new structural support to be added.

Just a thought that there's plenty of racing out there in cars much heavier than the current Formula E. So a bigger car with more batteries and a more powerful motor has great potential to excite the fans as it goes faster and farther than the Formula E does, without ever switching cars. I'd still rather see a pitstop to swap batteries than the driver jumping out of one car and into another.

Oh, don't forget, the first year of hybrids in the Grand Prix a crewman was electrocuted on pit row. No battery swap involved. No such thing as perfectly safe in this world.

KERS1.png
 
Hillhater said:
Dead is dead..... Does it mattter if its a 240v jolt , or a 1 kv flash that does the deed ?
...Neither of them is a joke. :cry:

Absolutely not. The current is what kills you and it increases with voltage. At higher voltages it can also arc through thin clothing, which would provide protection at 240V.

240V can be lethal and it does kill people but most people shocked by it survive. Increase the voltage and that ratio starts rapidly going the other way. High voltages are instakill.
 
It's true, 240 V AC will really hurt, and leave you with a sore arm. If you're unlucky, it will cross your heart and cause cardiac arrest.

With 700 V, your finger would get burnt right off. People have been known to survive high voltage shocks, but they were very, very lucky.
 
MUST you argue the merits of "Dead?"

So this guy lived, but he wasn't able to drive a grand prix car for awhile. Not sure he's really making a comeback, but it would be an attention getter to have him in a Formula E.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/7/f1-kubica-2017-renault-hungary-test.html
 
Im guessing Renault are in need of some positive publicity to boost their Media presence etc.
Kubica is a excellent driver and has a relatively high public profile (for the wrong reasons for a driver !). And could certainly draw more attention to the FE series.
But to believe he is going to be capable of beating experienced , younger, fully physically functioning, race drivers.....is very optomistic.
If its not publicly admitted, it is surely understood, that once a top level formula driver gets to 30+ yrs old, his competitive instincts, reactions, vision, etc etc ,..are not going to improve further. Rather the oposite !
Kubica in F1 ? ... that is like a pitty f#<k !
 
So how old was Juan Fangio when he won his FIRST title, let alone fifth. Never mind the different equipment, its easier now, not harder. And people age better because they're just plain healthier.

But wat really hurt was you dissin' on optimism. What kind of racin' fan. . .I mean. . . .

Never forget, racing fans always have two favorite drivers that day. The usual and whatever hopeless back marker somehow got near the front that day. Just ask Mr. Sato about emerging from obscurity to run Indycars in his 30's. If I wasn't on my phone I'd look up if he was 40 by the time he won.
 
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